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-Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

A vanilla VIP-like smw collab!
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worldpeace125
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by worldpeace125 »

The chainsaw's index was a special one affected by that sprite interaction, I suppose.
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by Heraga »

Would it be possible to get a version of this hack with the AAE Characters/Sprites from the VIP series?
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by Ryrir »

Nin wrote:Would it be possible to get a version of this hack with the AAE Characters/Sprites from the VIP series?
Eh, I don't think that would be a good idea, since this is not a hack developed by 2chan and I don't think that they would like to see their graphics on other hacks.

If we would want to make an alternative version with changed graphics, I would propose those of ASMT (not necessarily Demo, but enemy sprites like goombas and koopas). I think it would be fun to see, but then again it's a lot of work for basically nothing new and it's probably not worth it.
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aterraformer
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by aterraformer »

I believe it was Daizo's idea to change all the sprites. If this is something people want, sure, but definitely not VIP graphics. Either ASMT or original would be great but not necessary
raocow wrote:the plan is to wait for Jump to be released and then replacing the graphics without telling anyone involved with Jump.
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by morsel/morceau »

I have finally beat "1F8". One thing you may consider changing is the reset prompt looping around: when pressing up at the prompt in the rope section (anticipating the level entrance), I came perilous close to exiting by mistake.

I still had enormous trouble with the yoshi section. My keyboard is sort of broken (there is tape holding the arrow keys down), so it may be possible the movements you have to make to keep yoshi under you are particularly difficult for me and others may have less grief here.
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by worldpeace125 »

Yes! congratulation on beating it. I think it's good to fix the prompt problem, as exiting that level means losing all progress. After jumping off yoshi, not pressing any direction would let mario and yoshi have the same x speed. Still you need to eliminate momentum before the jump so that yoshi wouldn't bounce off the wall, which was hard for me to not forget.
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by Ryrir »

The last Dragon Coin in "Holy House" got glitched out during my playthrough of the boss fight: The outline would constantly appear, move to the right and disappear again in the middle of the screen. I also haven't gotten it directly when I first fought the boss, but only during a later attempt.
Also, on the way to the secret exit, hiding the second midpoint behind the ice blocks is just plain mean. C'mon man :/

Other than that, I'm enjoining my completely tool-less run so far. The only level (besides Holy House) that gave me a lot of trouble was Manky Bridge, I still stand behind my opinion about those two more midpoints, you know :P Second Half is just too long and you have to replay too much for it to be fun. Still standing strong though!
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by morsel/morceau »

The dragon coin (or its outline) is supposed to do that. It seems sometimes you collect the coin immediately on entering the room (I hadn't noticed this before): this can be fixed (if it needs to be) by moving the coin one tile right (so it's directly under mario's entrance).

You only need to keep one of the flower and the cape to reach the midpoint, or you can simply do a wall jump.
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by Ryrir »

Oh, okay - it's not a bug, it's a feature, right? I just thought I mentioned it, because it looks like it's not supposed to happen (:
Also, I'm not really mad about the difficulty, I just got frustrated while playing. It'll certanly be interesting to watch raocow play through these levels though.
Speaking of let's plays, there aren't any out there yet, are there? I'm really interested to see how an "outsider" would react to the hack
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by worldpeace125 »

Ryrir wrote:Speaking of let's plays, there aren't any out there yet, are there? I'm really interested to see how an "outsider" would react to the hack
Not sure about LPs, but there are some silent playthrough videos on youtube.


Having the music glitch in 2p mode fixed, I will upload the next version of the hack(1.01) this weekend. If you want some of your levels to be fixed, please send your modifications to me.
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Post by morsel/morceau »

Another stuck forever possibility: between the turn blocks (screens 02 and 04) in level 1B (make the roof spikes?). Having no time limits is surprisingly cruel.
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by Jolpengammler »

Another one from me: Cave of layer 2 if you enter the moving door as soon as possible you get an endless bonus game
(Level 57)
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by aterraformer »

JUMP is now under moderation soooo
raocow wrote:the plan is to wait for Jump to be released and then replacing the graphics without telling anyone involved with Jump.
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by worldpeace125 »

Here's an update. Thanks for reporting various issues.
JUMP ver 1.01

Resources

Changelog
Level Changes

- "PEEK-A-BOO!!"
Toned down the difficulty of some obstacles.
- "The Cave of Layer2"
Fixed two sections where you can be stuck forever. Thanks to Jolpengammler
and morsel/morceau for reporting these.
- "Bridge Engineering"
Put indicating coins on the shortcut pipe that appears when you revisit the
first sublevel after passing through it.
- "Disco Dance Party"
Fixed a section where you can be stuck forever. Thanks to morsel/morceau for
reporting this.
- "Super Grand Ultra Marathon of Finalness"
Made it possible to kill homing thwomps with a star.
- "1F8"
Added invisible midway points that automatically save your progress as it's
possible to exit the level unintentionally.

Bug Fixes

- Fixed the music fading issue which happened when mario and luigi are in the
same map. Thanks to morsel/morceau for reporting this.
- Fixed a bug regarding the line guide hack which crashed ZMZ 1.09(bsnes) in the
2nd right room of "Shattered Dreams". Thanks to lolyoshi for reporting this.
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by Ryrir »

My game crashed after the credit sequence before the yoshi house appears :/
If I remember correctly the last time an issue like this happened, you wanted me to upload a savestate, so just in case I attached one.
It's kind of too bad that that happened, now I have to fight bowser again

Edit: Looks like the talkhaus won't let me attach the file. In that case, I'll just wait until I see what you guys say before I do anything. Might be a zsnes-thing again?
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worldpeace125
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by worldpeace125 »

Ryrir wrote:My game crashed after the credit sequence before the yoshi house appears :/
If I remember correctly the last time an issue like this happened, you wanted me to upload a savestate, so just in case I attached one.
It's kind of too bad that that happened, now I have to fight bowser again

Edit: Looks like the talkhaus won't let me attach the file. In that case, I'll just wait until I see what you guys say before I do anything. Might be a zsnes-thing again?
Ah I was aware of that glitch which is another case of "zsnes vs. addmusick" problem from which other emulators would be safe. SRM file is saved right after beating the bowser. So resetting the game will still keep the progress anyways, which is the reason I left the glitch.
About uploading files, maybe you need to check the file's extension.
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by Ryrir »

Yeah that's what I thought.
I didn't know about the reset-function though, just tried it out and it worked. Thanks!

Also, maybe you could write something about that in the readme-file of the next update, like "the hack as a low chance of crashing while playing with zsnes, it's recommended to use another emulator" or something like that?
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by worldpeace125 »

As some playthroughs and opinions from streamers have been obtained, we - aterraformer, lolyoshi and me - decide to plan the next version 1.02 for minimizing potential bad experiences. Unlike 1.01, things may be vastly changed during this update. Mostly we are thinking of toning down some levels.

It's kinda unfortunate that "some" of our levels became notorious for being too unforgiving in terms of difficulty, length, etc. Actually I'm somewhat responsible to this, for skipping the open beta stage, and for "not" having levels tested by blind players sufficiently. I remember levels were tested blindly, authors took feedback from that, and the modified levels were re-tested by the same people who weren't blind anymore (i.e. too much experienced so issues can be overlooked). I feel sorry for that.

And I was(and still I am) masochistic type player who can say that playing like 1-2 hrs in a single level is okayish. I'm pretty sure many of us(who made hard levels) are in this case. Hard levels could be fine if the overall length of a hack is short. But this hack has already too long (125 exits). Several levels requiring a hour in addition to that can be too overwhelming. I was able to see many (tooless) players became exhausted easily. Maybe we also need to consider that majority of players are not like sadistic levels. It would be great if more peeps can have some good experience with this game, instead of feeling punished.

It seems that most levels turned out to be actually great fortunately. Small part of the game caused this problem really, but that small part can be seen exaggeratedly huge. Then again it won't be hard to polish them because their portion is small. So let us getting them fixed, shall we?
If some of your levels has been already salted by some streamers and their audiences, sorry about that. But still there's chance that our levels can be pleasing for (dozens of times more) people who are yet to experience this hack.

Text has became too long already, so I will write what we're going to do later. You are welcome to update any of your levels if you want!
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by Jolpengammler »

I DO appreciate this suggestion, BUT I'd rather put both version in the .rar at the end and name the files "hard version" "normal version" or sth.
So that masochistic players (like worldpeace, Isocitration and me) can still have the hard version, but other people can have the easier version. That way the original level design doesn't get lost AND for other people the game can become more enjoyable! Happiness for everyone!
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by Ryrir »

I don't know how I feel about this.

For me it was always clear that JUMP is a hack that is not for everybody. If someone with very little experience tries to play the hack, they're going to have a pretty miserable time with it, yes, so I see your point, but the question is if the hack was really designed for these people. In my opinion, JUMP was always a hack made specifically for these "masochisitic players" so tuning down the difficulty... doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
Also, how exactly are you trying to do this? Changing levels and obsticals completely, like you always said you wouldn't want to do? Spam multiple midpoints everywhere? In my opinion, the longer I think about this, the clearer I see that it's actually impossible to make the hack "enjoyable" for newcomers: The way everything is set up, you'd basically have to redesign all of starworld to make that happen. Are you really willing to go that far?

With this proposal you are trying to do the impossible: Pleasing everyone. And that's just not going to happen. Instead, you really should just accept that the hack is made for experienced players only and move on. Yes, there will be people complaining that the hack is too hard, but the hack was never really intended for these kind of players to start with. And yes, maybe not everyone is willing to play 3+ hours to beat a level, but I mean nobody is forcing them to do so. Editing the difficulty would just ruin it for the people who are willing to do so.

Also, yes, the streamers had problems with the hack and said that stuff was unreasonable. But, and that's more important for me, they also repeatedly said that they had a lot of fun with the hack, and that it was very well designed. For example, you could really feel the sense of accomplishment rez had when he finally beat Rapture of the Deep, even if he previously complained that it was "pixel perfect shit" or something. For me, that doesn't have to mean that you have to make the level easier, because that would really just take away the sense of accomplishment... because the hack is supposed to be that hard. Not everyone is going to like it, but that's just the way it is.

That being said, I agree that there are some things that should be changed. Perilous Pier should have a one-up at the start of the second half so that you don't have to worry about lives. Manky Bridge should have an additional midpoint thrown in there somewhere. But please don't start editing Chuck Magnet just because of hedron (for example). The level is perfectly fine the way it is now.

I also agree with Jolpe. If you really, really want to edit the hack the way you seem set out to do, please make the original version available for download as well.

I get that you're trying to make the hack enjoyable for as many people as possible. But that ship has sailed long, long ago, back when aterra was still leading this. And - in my opinion - that doesn't have to be a bad thing. It's kind of ridiculous that instead of embracing it you try to backpedal after the hack is already released.

Edit: It's probably ridiculous to start this whole argument when you haven't even announced what exactly you're going to change. It could very well be that we're on the same wavelength here! I have absolutely zero objections if you're going to add retry prompts in more levels for example
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by worldpeace125 »

edit: just read your edit after I made this post.

original post;
I should make things clear, Ryrir. The target of this hack is still people who're accustomed to SMW hacks, and it won't be changed (as our hack's difficulty is labeled as 'hard'). Really, we cannot expect newcomers to have no trouble. I guess there's an incorrect selection of word from me. You can blame my bad writing.

What we are planning is to handle levels which went too far to be fun for "even" those skilled players. It's necessary to distinguish between skilled players and "masochistic players" who are willing to stay on a level like a million hours. Like, it's not hard to find people who are so skilled, even capable of beating kaizo levels, and hate kaizo at the same time.
Mostly masochistic players tend to be skilled players too. What I meant by "broadening target players" was actually to embrace not only maso peeps, but skilled peeps too.

These are what we're going to handle for achieving it:
- forcing to repeat same things over and over (especially in puzzle levels and long levels)
(solution) put some midways or alternatives(invisible 1up blocks), level modification(if author wants)

- some stupid/unintuitive thing which is pointless but only takes up your time
(solution) try to make things clear (e.g. add some indication for the secret exit of Cave of Layer2)

- kaizo (looking at Pixel Perfect and Disarray)
It doesn't seem to be a good idea to force players to beat kaizo levels, especially when the hack description said the difficulty is "Hard", not "Kaizo: Light". I know they are optional but still included in the exit counter.
(solution) make some things more fair like giving more reaction time, etc
or alternatively scrap these levels as the authors are inactive

There were opinions that two levels - Shell Sitter and 1F8 - after real final are kinda out of place. Regarding this, I'm thinking of either 1) not including them as the exit number, or 2) changing overworld structure a little (so that two levels don't come after "shattered dreams"). In the case 2, I'm thinking of putting a yoshi wing at the beginning of 1F8, not to force completionist to play kaizo levels.
Ryrir wrote:That being said, I agree that there are some things that should be changed. Perilous Pier should have a one-up at the start of the second half so that you don't have to worry about lives. Manky Bridge should have an additional midpoint thrown in there somewhere. But please don't start editing Chuck Magnet just because of dodechehedron (for example). The level is perfectly fine the way it is now.
So basically this, except for a little things in Chuck Magnet
- give some explanation when chuck actually jumps (also explaining that pressing the jump button won't be effective)
- spheres in 2nd half can respawn chuck instead of bringing you back to the beginning

I also agree with Jolpe. If you really, really want to edit the hack the way you seem set out to do, please make the original version available for download as well.
This seems a good idea, going to take this into consideration.
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by Ryrir »

Still not convinced haha

I thought the solution for puzzle / long levels (where it's not 100% clear what you have to do) was the movies in the yoshi houses? I mean yeah, the streamers didn't seem to particularly care about those, but if you use the pause menu it would be clear that there is a movie for the level, and maybe that would encourage people to wait with playing the level until they have seen the movie. Maybe you could add a movie for Cave of Layer 2? Or lower the "price" so that they are more accessible?

Regarding the kaizo levels: You can already fly over Pixel Perfect with Yoshi. Maybe something similar can be done for Disarray? But then again, with the multiple midpoints... I actually thought that it really was "hard" instead of "kaizo: light", especially if you take the solution in the w6 yoshi house into consideration where you fly over the podobos. But I agree that it's crossing the line into kaizo difficulty.

I fully agree that shell sticker & 1F8 shouldn't count towards the 125 exits. But couldn't that problem be solved by simply making the whole path directly accessible after beating shattered dreams, so that these levels don't trigger overworld events?

I am, however, against spamming midpoints or scrapping levels as a knee-jerk reaction to some streamers having problems

I don't know, as I said before it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to talk about all of this if I don't even know what exactly you guys are planning to change :P
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by worldpeace125 »

Ryrir wrote:Still not convinced haha

I thought the solution for puzzle / long levels (where it's not 100% clear what you have to do) was the movies in the yoshi houses? I mean yeah, the streamers didn't seem to particularly care about those, but if you use the pause menu it would be clear that there is a movie for the level, and maybe that would ancourage people to wait until playing the level until they have seen the movie. Maybe you could add a movie for Cave of Layer 2? Or lower the "price" so that they are more accessible?
Some players don't like spoilers and avoid watching movies intentionally. Taking account of this, it might not be good to leave an unintuitive design and say "hey here's a movie. so watch this or you'll screwed". So we need another solution.
For Cave of Layer 2, I'm thinking of putting some special-colored coins under the bridge right now. I dunno if it'll work well.
Regarding the kaizo levels: You can already fly over Pixel Perfect with Yoshi. Maybe something similar can be done for Disarray? But then again, with the multiple midpoints... I actually thought that it really was "hard" instead of "kaizo: light", especially if you take the solution in the w6 yoshi house into consideration where you fly over the podobos. But I agree that it's crossing the line into kaizo difficulty.
About Disarray, modifying some first obstacles (the note block under the muncher / pass through two parakoopas) plus erasing invis coin blocks are enough to make the level non-kaizo. (still questionable if it'll be a good level, but it's not a matter)
I fully agree that shell sticker & 1F8 shouldn't count towards the 125 exits. But couldn't that problem be solved by simply making the whole path directly accessible after beating shattered dreams, so that these levels don't trigger overworld events?
That's exactly what I thought if we choose the case 1. We'll have to discuss more about this though.
I am, however, against spamming midpoints or scrapping levels as a knee-jerk reaction to some streamers having problems
Right now, "Manky Bridge", "Keep a Positive Altitude", "Chains of Atrophy", and "Miscellaneous Monument" are the levels where I'd suggest midpoints.
Note that the two last ones are the puzzle levels, and I'm suggesting because it's been said by most of people that solving same puzzles whenever you're dead isn't fresh and kinda an artificial difficulty.
"Chains of Atrophy" can have a soft save with the retry prompt (when you select retry, you'll start at the sublevel you died).
"Misc Monument" is a hard level to locate extra midpoints evenly. Maybe you could make level require "Activating the flying platform (1st half)" and "getting the yoshi (2nd half)" to be done only once, by using invisible 1up blocks or etc. Just my 2 cents.
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by Ryrir »

Alright, I see your points. Thanks for clearing things up (:

I can get behind the edits in Disarray you talked about. For Manky Bridge and Keep a Positive Altitude, would you be adding one or two additional midpoints? I think it might be enough to just add a retry prompt for Keep a Positive Altitude that would let you restart the sublevel, like you proposed for Chains of Atrophy.

I see how Misc Monument might be difficult to handle, although I thought that once you knew the solution, the execution became a matter of a few tries (though I might be losing perspective here). I mean, it's not harder than the final stronghold, so...
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by worldpeace125 »

Ryrir wrote:Alright, I see your points. Thanks for clearing things up (:

I can get behind the edits in Disarray you talked about. For Manky Bridge and Keep a Positive Altitude, would you be adding one or two additional midpoints? I think it might be enough to just add a retry prompt for Keep a Positive Altitude that would let you restart the sublevel, like you proposed for Chains of Atrophy.
I'd like to have some talk with authors first. I remember morsel said he'd redesign sections rather than having an extra midway, so it'll be up to him maybe?
It's commonly observed that "Manky Bridge" and "Perilous Pier" were the apparent difficulty spikes for blind players (with various abilities). I'd recommend him to make the levels more forgiving regardless of whether he's going to add more midways.
I see how Misc Monument might be difficult to handle, although I thought that once you knew the solution, the execution became a matter of a few tries (though I might be losing perspective here). I mean, it's not harder than the final stronghold, so...
Actually this applies to most of hard levels including Manky Bridge - once you learn what you're supposed to do, the level's beatable within a few tries. The point is that repeating same sections to reach and learn the next section isn't meaningful for many peeps, kinda. I guess having less midpoints could maximize the feeling of accomplishment. But in my opinion, the feeling won't be that different even if you beat the level with cutting 1-2 more midway tapes in one shot. I'd like to hear opinions of others.
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