-Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-
- morsel/morceau
- Posts: 401
- Joined: 14 years ago
- Location: exotic horse island
Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-
I honestly, genuinely hate the player and want him to struggle with my levels. (I don't really know why Manky Bridge gets picked on, though, as it's a completely ordinary length measured by either the number of screens or the time it takes to beat it.) So I would still prefer that any levels not considered good enough were removed, rather than have to go through hoops redesigning things to please some hypothetical person.
Personally, I find JUMP very comparable to VIP number in difficulty. Nothing really needs to be changed. It's not for everyone, and that's a good thing.
Personally, I find JUMP very comparable to VIP number in difficulty. Nothing really needs to be changed. It's not for everyone, and that's a good thing.
dont wanna jihad no more
Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-
Basically what I've been trying to say in my other posts. I agree 100%morsel/morceau wrote:Nothing really needs to be changed. It's not for everyone, and that's a good thing.
this is getting laundromatic
- worldpeace125
- Posts: 262
- Joined: 11 years ago
Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-
I kinda felt sad when peeps were quite harshing on some levels or authors. Especially felt sorry for levels you made, because I already knew the coolness of your levels. Obviously it wasn't a good return for one who contributed a lot to this project either.morsel/morceau wrote:I honestly, genuinely hate the player and want him to struggle with my levels. (I don't really know why Manky Bridge gets picked on, though, as it's a completely ordinary length measured by either the number of screens or the time it takes to beat it.) So I would still prefer that any levels not considered good enough were removed, rather than have to go through hoops redesigning things to please some hypothetical person.
I actually wanted to see your level become a little nicer to players to be honest, so peeps can easily recognize your level's good. Now I just notice what you demend in levels, and in that case I don't know what to do. Maybe the choice on your levels is really up to you.
In my opinion, the 2nd half of Manky Bridge is much longer than other of your parts(the first half of the same level or other levels). All blind players that I observed, including myself, spent all given time(600) and died in the middle due to time up.
Fyi some notable twitch streamers: virus610 completed this game 100%, and dodechehedron beat any%. Previous streams are available on their profile page.
Other streamers can be found by looking into the "Super Mario World" category.
That's quite true, except for the kaizo levels. Even if the kaizo levels here and non-kaizo hard levels are pretty much similar in terms of difficulty(or amount of time to beat), the two types are really different in terms of style; to many people, only one of them is enjoyable. Kaizo levels could approach as BS especially when the difficulty is labeled as "Hard" on smwcentral.Personally, I find JUMP very comparable to VIP number in difficulty. Nothing really needs to be changed. It's not for everyone, and that's a good thing.
Also I think some faults which were apparently unintended should be fixed too. Some authors just realized them and now want their levels updated.
- Jolpengammler
- The Friendly Dog
- Posts: 114
- Joined: 12 years ago
- Pronouns: he/him
- Location: German Town
Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-
Just like we agreed, easier version is alright, if we keep the original, too!
"Ban all the facial hair from life." ~ Horikawa Otane, 2014
"i always run up and down the stairs because i want to die" ~Isocitration, 2016
- morsel/morceau
- Posts: 401
- Joined: 14 years ago
- Location: exotic horse island
Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-
Officially sanctioned changes would be increasing the time limit to whatever you think is sensible (I should note it only takes me ~150), and another powerup (the left side of screen 03 in level 50). Another checkpoint in the area seems to make its partitions too short, in my opinion.worldpeace125 wrote: In my opinion, the 2nd half of Manky Bridge is much longer than other of your parts(the first half of the same level or other levels). All blind players that I observed, including myself, spent all given time(600) and died in the middle due to time up.
twitch doesn't really behave for me. In honesty, I probably wouldn't have very much sympathy for negative opinions anyway. Given that, are small adjustments like the above good enough for my levels?twitch streamers
Take RotD, for an example. This level has many things wrong with it:
-power up filter
-spin jump is disabled
-unexplained throw block filter
-having to clear out the throw blocks ahead of the spikes
-unfamiliar camera in the drop
-green springy things
-chuck kaizo gates
-yoshi jump
-a puzzle to get DCs
-a midpoint that may be awkward to get
-a "blind" fall
-vine jumping
-a section where you have to keep yoshi (requiring some unexplained yoshi actions).
Fixing the level to be non-controversial would involve taking account of all these things (and more besides, no doubt) -- a hefty undertaking.
This is why I think it's better to remove these offending levels than trying to accommodate them within a "friendly" hack.
dont wanna jihad no more
- worldpeace125
- Posts: 262
- Joined: 11 years ago
Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-
Thanks for the decision. The would be quite better, we'll see.morsel/morceau wrote:Officially sanctioned changes would be increasing the time limit to whatever you think is sensible (I should note it only takes me ~150), and another powerup (the left side of screen 03 in level 50). Another checkpoint in the area seems to make its partitions too short, in my opinion.
Time limit was insufficient for blind players. But after slowly getting accustomed to obstacles, they were able to pass through the sections much faster (virus610 for a clear example). It seems that time taken for this level varies according to players' experience; about 3-4 times.
Most complaints I've seen around this hack were something like "this is too long. and I have to repeat all the previous sections to learn the next, which is tedious". I'm pretty sure things you mentioned are okay if they're viewed individually. But when many things are put together so the length becomes long, it may be a problem.twitch doesn't really behave for me. In honesty, I probably wouldn't have very much sympathy for negative opinions anyway. Given that, are small adjustments like the above good enough for my levels?
Take RotD, for an example. This level has many things wrong with it:
- (things)
Fixing the level to be non-controversial would involve taking account of all these things (and more besides, no doubt) -- a hefty undertaking.
This is why I think it's better to remove these offending levels than trying to accommodate them within a "friendly" hack.
From my theory, the main complaints could be handled with some small actions, really. By doing one of these.
1) reduce the probability of players being dead, by inserting more powerups nicely, eliminating instant deaths, etc. Of course the problem may happen when a player dies despite the modifications. But it's still very helpful in my opinion.
2) put 1-2 extra midpoint(s) for the place where they can be really handy. I'm not even saying let's spam midpoints. This option is more trustworthy to resolve the complaints.
And of course we're not making a hack which is as friendly as possible. Also a level can be a little nicer after some challenging stuffs that authors want to insert, like being tsundere(?) as an example. There's grey between black and white.
Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-
It really doesn't make much sense to talk about this in such an abstract way.
Why don't you guys (you said aterra and lolyoshi were with you on this) make a nice little list with all the changes you propose for v1.02?
I'm sure a compromise can be reached. And if the worst comes to the worst, we can always fall back on Jolpes idea and make two different versions of the hack.
Why don't you guys (you said aterra and lolyoshi were with you on this) make a nice little list with all the changes you propose for v1.02?
I'm sure a compromise can be reached. And if the worst comes to the worst, we can always fall back on Jolpes idea and make two different versions of the hack.
this is getting laundromatic
- morsel/morceau
- Posts: 401
- Joined: 14 years ago
- Location: exotic horse island
Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-
I think what I object to is that I have no real idea what sort of hack we're making. There is a kind of cabal (secret discussion outside of this public forum) aspect to this, driven by the opinions of streamers which may be dubious. I once watched one of the guys mentioned play The Lion KIng (SNES), a game I am fond of, beating it when I was a child (and I didn't even own it! I played it on visits to my cousin's house), and I had very little time for the complaints made about it by the streamer (which were stridently echoed in the chat), many of which were his own fault -- there was a complete disjunction of opinion here that I wouldn't want to compromise on.And of course we're not making a hack which is as friendly as possible. Also a level can be a little nicer after some challenging stuffs that authors want to insert, like being tsundere(?) as an example. There's grey between black and white.
dont wanna jihad no more
- worldpeace125
- Posts: 262
- Joined: 11 years ago
Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-
Here. Feel free to give some opinion about each of them. According to this plan, some huge modifications can be made on kaizo levels and Star World.Ryrir wrote:It really doesn't make much sense to talk about this in such an abstract way.
Why don't you guys (you said aterra and lolyoshi were with you on this) make a nice little list with all the changes you propose for v1.02?
I'm sure a compromise can be reached. And if the worst comes to the worst, we can always fall back on Jolpes idea and make two different versions of the hack.
I think we're still aiming a vip-like hack trying to only capture the positive side of vip (e.g. variety, unique challenge), and hopefully embracing many players having different skills as much as possible. Admittedly it's tough to consistently achieve both; challenging, new(obscure) designs are too risky to satisfy many players, but can be much more enjoyable for certain portion of players. The two goals are kinda conflicting (Gamma V's hacks and their fans can be a good example *of the opposite side). Ideally, an expected player of this hack is anyone who is capable of average 'Hard' hacks on smwcentral. So it's alright to make levels challenging and unique and we don't need to consider novices. But not too much. I believe this(variety+aiming average of the 'hard' category) is the goal of the hack, and the best available goal for a hack under VIP category. Again I'm just putting my two cents.morsel/morceau wrote:I think what I object to is that I have no real idea what sort of hack we're making. There is a kind of cabal (secret discussion outside of this public forum) aspect to this, driven by the opinions of streamers which may be dubious. I once watched one of the guys mentioned play The Lion KIng (SNES), a game I am fond of, beating it when I was a child (and I didn't even own it! I played it on visits to my cousin's house), and I had very little time for the complaints made about it by the streamer (which were stridently echoed in the chat), many of which were his own fault -- there was a complete disjunction of opinion here that I wouldn't want to compromise on.And of course we're not making a hack which is as friendly as possible. Also a level can be a little nicer after some challenging stuffs that authors want to insert, like being tsundere(?) as an example. There's grey between black and white.
It's hard to weight one against the other concretely, and we can usually do nothing but rely on some samples of actual playthrough (tests, streams, etc). Some negative opinions from streamers can be from their faults. But I think the others are valid, and good to remind some overlooked mistakes of the authors' side.
About the discussion(mostly light conversation) outside of the forum, we use skype. We used to use the talkhaus IRC(#JUMP), but I remember Daizo suggested to use skype due to file/image transfer things, and we moved to there. Anyone who participated in this project is welcome. If you want to join this, just let me know(my skype id is worldpeace_smw)
Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-
Thanks for putting the list together! I think now the discussion should be a lot more productive, since we're talking about concrete stuff instead of vague opinions. (:
Let me throw my personal opinions around. As always, feel free to ignore them, but maybe once we see the points of view from multiple people, the ideal path to take will be clearer
All in all I'm relieved (:
I feel like the edits you propose, while affecting the gameplay, are still relatively minor and would ultimately lead to a more fun playing experience. I don't think an extra rom with the original levels (like Jolpe proposed) would be necessary, since all the levels still keep their original spirit.
Let me throw my personal opinions around. As always, feel free to ignore them, but maybe once we see the points of view from multiple people, the ideal path to take will be clearer
All in all I'm relieved (:
I feel like the edits you propose, while affecting the gameplay, are still relatively minor and would ultimately lead to a more fun playing experience. I don't think an extra rom with the original levels (like Jolpe proposed) would be necessary, since all the levels still keep their original spirit.
this is getting laundromatic
- morsel/morceau
- Posts: 401
- Joined: 14 years ago
- Location: exotic horse island
Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-
I am sceptical that the proposed changes (which are generally minor) would prevent people from whinging. In that case, we may well be coming back to look at everything again in another couple of months (JUMP is a turd that won't flush). However (forgive the shouting, but the tabs won't be retained),
Regarding levels that aren't mine, I should probably follow my own metric and mind my own business, but there are things I feel should be commented on.
Regarding levels that aren't mine, I should probably follow my own metric and mind my own business, but there are things I feel should be commented on.
Let go of the block before bouncing on it? Otherwise it's just timing.Ryrir wrote:Manky Bridge: I still have problems with the bullet jump right before the midpoint
dont wanna jihad no more
Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-
Re morsel: Lives are kinda meaningless anyways because of the live farms. By world six, you'd definitely have gained access to them.
The problem witch Perilious Pier was (in my case) that you lose waaaay more lives than you gain by coins. When I played the level, I felt like it was rather memory-based (of course not all of it, you are able to do everything on your first try if you have fast enough reflexes, but especially if you go for the dragon coins you have to know what's going on). It's really frustrating to play when you have to worry about lives, because you have to play the whole first half again if you game over, and (if you haven't unlocked special word yet) the only life farming opportunity is the world 3 house, which gives you only 4-8 lives per try. By giving the player a one-up at the start, they could really focus more on the level (an external source of stress would be completely removed) and in turn, the level would be a lot more fun. At least that's the way I see it.
Edit: maybe there can be a compromise where the one-up is not at the start of the section, but midway through? Like on the long upwards slope after the "A" made out of fishes
The problem witch Perilious Pier was (in my case) that you lose waaaay more lives than you gain by coins. When I played the level, I felt like it was rather memory-based (of course not all of it, you are able to do everything on your first try if you have fast enough reflexes, but especially if you go for the dragon coins you have to know what's going on). It's really frustrating to play when you have to worry about lives, because you have to play the whole first half again if you game over, and (if you haven't unlocked special word yet) the only life farming opportunity is the world 3 house, which gives you only 4-8 lives per try. By giving the player a one-up at the start, they could really focus more on the level (an external source of stress would be completely removed) and in turn, the level would be a lot more fun. At least that's the way I see it.
Edit: maybe there can be a compromise where the one-up is not at the start of the section, but midway through? Like on the long upwards slope after the "A" made out of fishes
this is getting laundromatic
- morsel/morceau
- Posts: 401
- Joined: 14 years ago
- Location: exotic horse island
Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-
This sort of thing (maybe later in the level) is a possible compromise (+/- a normal mushroom). I'd still prefer adding more coins, though.
dont wanna jihad no more
- worldpeace125
- Posts: 262
- Joined: 11 years ago
Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-
What if your life counter won't be decreased by the retry system, when you have only one or two lives? Bad playing will still be penalized if you have usual amount of lives, but it would allow you to focus on the level without exiting.
In my opinion, kaizo levels are at issue not because of their difficulty, but because of their style; you need to struggle and die many times for every small progress.
Regarding levels after the final level(Shell Sticker, 1F8), we're going with the 3rd option: make them accessible from the left side(where pixel perfect is). Shell Stickers and 1F8 will become optional for 100% clear (**123), but we'll leave them without changing/discarding kaizoish parts (opinions in the aformentioned group were converged to this option). And we can say these levels(actually the movies of them) will function as rewards for obtaining all dragon coins; "congrats on collecting all dragon coins. and have some show."
Now it seems two kaizo levels - Disarray, Pixel Perfect - are going to be tweaked. I guess Disarray was already discussed enough. I'll take your opinion of Pixel Perfect.
In case you're curious about 125: It came from 120 usual exits + 5 exits having no overworld layer2 events (4 switches + bowser's castle). If possible, I could've received more levels from people who wanted make more(e.g. Nin). However I thought it would be very time consuming to extend the table for the 121st event sequence (also the overworld space). That's the result.
Not sure if it can be that bad to follow the standards even though we admit the fact, since kaizo in this hack takes only the small part. Furthermore, I'm certain there was a clear boundary between hard and kaizo even before the category was made or we started this project, and we were making a hack like VIP that doesn't contain any kaizo level. Actually it was aterra's or my fault that these levels weren't rejected :/morsel/morceau wrote:Why not? The hack was said not to fit into the 'Hard' category of smw central, but these categories didn't exist when we started the hack and they are poorly defined anyway. Why force JUMP into this awkward hole?
In my opinion, kaizo levels are at issue not because of their difficulty, but because of their style; you need to struggle and die many times for every small progress.
Regarding levels after the final level(Shell Sticker, 1F8), we're going with the 3rd option: make them accessible from the left side(where pixel perfect is). Shell Stickers and 1F8 will become optional for 100% clear (**123), but we'll leave them without changing/discarding kaizoish parts (opinions in the aformentioned group were converged to this option). And we can say these levels(actually the movies of them) will function as rewards for obtaining all dragon coins; "congrats on collecting all dragon coins. and have some show."
Now it seems two kaizo levels - Disarray, Pixel Perfect - are going to be tweaked. I guess Disarray was already discussed enough. I'll take your opinion of Pixel Perfect.
In case you're curious about 125: It came from 120 usual exits + 5 exits having no overworld layer2 events (4 switches + bowser's castle). If possible, I could've received more levels from people who wanted make more(e.g. Nin). However I thought it would be very time consuming to extend the table for the 121st event sequence (also the overworld space). That's the result.
- worldpeace125
- Posts: 262
- Joined: 11 years ago
Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-
I feel my stance has become more organized when writing PMs. Let me clear my current thought for 3 big issues.
- Suggesting each level to be nice:
Due to the lack of the beta test done by blind players, some problems in this hack weren't revealed. Then they suddenly came to light and gave bad experiences to some type of players. I or aterra are responsible for this result, so I have to ask authors if their levels unintentionally hurt some players, as opposed to what they expected. For levels which are in the case, I'd really like to give them chances to be updated, so the problem could never happen for a greater number of potential players.
Come to think of the motive, it's reasonable that the decision should be really up to authors. If they think there are no problems, I'd better follow them. Perhaps it's implicitly shown that I've been eager to see things modified too much. I need to calm down a little bit.
- Having levels after the real final:
So far, most people agreed that it's awkward. Definitely I'm on the side of changing it. I'm also with the majority of opinions: The levels will become optional(have no exits), and they are accessible from the star road of Bowser's Castle(after beating Pixel Perfect?).
- Kaizo levels included in the exits (also, see the LP request thread):
I was kinda persuaded very easily, but now I think it's reasonable to think there should be no kaizo levels too. They are far from our goal(VIP style, target players, ...), and should've been rejected. I'm aware of some huddles mentioned by morsel, and perhaps I feel so uncomfortable with them(especially the shell jump) regardless of their difficulty. Optional kaizo levels are fine with me, since players won't be forced to beat them and they'll be amazing rewards anyways.
I was thinking of Disarray and Pixel Perfect for being kaizo in terms of precision which usually requires a number of deaths. But Gourmet Hindrance also can be seen as a kaizo levels by another view, since it demands trials and errors. Like, it's in the category of Super Mario World Remix.
- Suggesting each level to be nice:
Due to the lack of the beta test done by blind players, some problems in this hack weren't revealed. Then they suddenly came to light and gave bad experiences to some type of players. I or aterra are responsible for this result, so I have to ask authors if their levels unintentionally hurt some players, as opposed to what they expected. For levels which are in the case, I'd really like to give them chances to be updated, so the problem could never happen for a greater number of potential players.
Come to think of the motive, it's reasonable that the decision should be really up to authors. If they think there are no problems, I'd better follow them. Perhaps it's implicitly shown that I've been eager to see things modified too much. I need to calm down a little bit.
- Having levels after the real final:
So far, most people agreed that it's awkward. Definitely I'm on the side of changing it. I'm also with the majority of opinions: The levels will become optional(have no exits), and they are accessible from the star road of Bowser's Castle(after beating Pixel Perfect?).
- Kaizo levels included in the exits (also, see the LP request thread):
I was kinda persuaded very easily, but now I think it's reasonable to think there should be no kaizo levels too. They are far from our goal(VIP style, target players, ...), and should've been rejected. I'm aware of some huddles mentioned by morsel, and perhaps I feel so uncomfortable with them(especially the shell jump) regardless of their difficulty. Optional kaizo levels are fine with me, since players won't be forced to beat them and they'll be amazing rewards anyways.
I was thinking of Disarray and Pixel Perfect for being kaizo in terms of precision which usually requires a number of deaths. But Gourmet Hindrance also can be seen as a kaizo levels by another view, since it demands trials and errors. Like, it's in the category of Super Mario World Remix.
Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-
... and it's accepted.
this is getting laundromatic
Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-
... and it's featured on the front page of SMWC!
Heck yeah!
Again, congratulation to all of y'all, seeing the finished product in action is really, really cool (:
Heck yeah!
Again, congratulation to all of y'all, seeing the finished product in action is really, really cool (:
this is getting laundromatic