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-Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

A vanilla VIP-like smw collab!
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morsel/morceau
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by morsel/morceau »

I honestly, genuinely hate the player and want him to struggle with my levels. (I don't really know why Manky Bridge gets picked on, though, as it's a completely ordinary length measured by either the number of screens or the time it takes to beat it.) So I would still prefer that any levels not considered good enough were removed, rather than have to go through hoops redesigning things to please some hypothetical person.

Personally, I find JUMP very comparable to VIP number in difficulty. Nothing really needs to be changed. It's not for everyone, and that's a good thing.
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by Ryrir »

morsel/morceau wrote:Nothing really needs to be changed. It's not for everyone, and that's a good thing.
Basically what I've been trying to say in my other posts. I agree 100%
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by worldpeace125 »

morsel/morceau wrote:I honestly, genuinely hate the player and want him to struggle with my levels. (I don't really know why Manky Bridge gets picked on, though, as it's a completely ordinary length measured by either the number of screens or the time it takes to beat it.) So I would still prefer that any levels not considered good enough were removed, rather than have to go through hoops redesigning things to please some hypothetical person.
I kinda felt sad when peeps were quite harshing on some levels or authors. Especially felt sorry for levels you made, because I already knew the coolness of your levels. Obviously it wasn't a good return for one who contributed a lot to this project either.
I actually wanted to see your level become a little nicer to players to be honest, so peeps can easily recognize your level's good. Now I just notice what you demend in levels, and in that case I don't know what to do. Maybe the choice on your levels is really up to you.
In my opinion, the 2nd half of Manky Bridge is much longer than other of your parts(the first half of the same level or other levels). All blind players that I observed, including myself, spent all given time(600) and died in the middle due to time up.

Fyi some notable twitch streamers: virus610 completed this game 100%, and dodechehedron beat any%. Previous streams are available on their profile page.
Other streamers can be found by looking into the "Super Mario World" category.
Personally, I find JUMP very comparable to VIP number in difficulty. Nothing really needs to be changed. It's not for everyone, and that's a good thing.
That's quite true, except for the kaizo levels. Even if the kaizo levels here and non-kaizo hard levels are pretty much similar in terms of difficulty(or amount of time to beat), the two types are really different in terms of style; to many people, only one of them is enjoyable. Kaizo levels could approach as BS especially when the difficulty is labeled as "Hard" on smwcentral.

Also I think some faults which were apparently unintended should be fixed too. Some authors just realized them and now want their levels updated.
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by Jolpengammler »

Just like we agreed, easier version is alright, if we keep the original, too!
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by morsel/morceau »

worldpeace125 wrote: In my opinion, the 2nd half of Manky Bridge is much longer than other of your parts(the first half of the same level or other levels). All blind players that I observed, including myself, spent all given time(600) and died in the middle due to time up.
Officially sanctioned changes would be increasing the time limit to whatever you think is sensible (I should note it only takes me ~150), and another powerup (the left side of screen 03 in level 50). Another checkpoint in the area seems to make its partitions too short, in my opinion.
twitch streamers
twitch doesn't really behave for me. In honesty, I probably wouldn't have very much sympathy for negative opinions anyway. Given that, are small adjustments like the above good enough for my levels?

Take RotD, for an example. This level has many things wrong with it:
-power up filter
-spin jump is disabled
-unexplained throw block filter
-having to clear out the throw blocks ahead of the spikes
-unfamiliar camera in the drop
-green springy things
-chuck kaizo gates
-yoshi jump
-a puzzle to get DCs
-a midpoint that may be awkward to get
-a "blind" fall
-vine jumping
-a section where you have to keep yoshi (requiring some unexplained yoshi actions).
Fixing the level to be non-controversial would involve taking account of all these things (and more besides, no doubt) -- a hefty undertaking.

This is why I think it's better to remove these offending levels than trying to accommodate them within a "friendly" hack.
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by worldpeace125 »

morsel/morceau wrote:Officially sanctioned changes would be increasing the time limit to whatever you think is sensible (I should note it only takes me ~150), and another powerup (the left side of screen 03 in level 50). Another checkpoint in the area seems to make its partitions too short, in my opinion.
Thanks for the decision. The would be quite better, we'll see.
Time limit was insufficient for blind players. But after slowly getting accustomed to obstacles, they were able to pass through the sections much faster (virus610 for a clear example). It seems that time taken for this level varies according to players' experience; about 3-4 times.
twitch doesn't really behave for me. In honesty, I probably wouldn't have very much sympathy for negative opinions anyway. Given that, are small adjustments like the above good enough for my levels?

Take RotD, for an example. This level has many things wrong with it:

- (things)

Fixing the level to be non-controversial would involve taking account of all these things (and more besides, no doubt) -- a hefty undertaking.

This is why I think it's better to remove these offending levels than trying to accommodate them within a "friendly" hack.
Most complaints I've seen around this hack were something like "this is too long. and I have to repeat all the previous sections to learn the next, which is tedious". I'm pretty sure things you mentioned are okay if they're viewed individually. But when many things are put together so the length becomes long, it may be a problem.

From my theory, the main complaints could be handled with some small actions, really. By doing one of these.
1) reduce the probability of players being dead, by inserting more powerups nicely, eliminating instant deaths, etc. Of course the problem may happen when a player dies despite the modifications. But it's still very helpful in my opinion.
2) put 1-2 extra midpoint(s) for the place where they can be really handy. I'm not even saying let's spam midpoints. This option is more trustworthy to resolve the complaints.


And of course we're not making a hack which is as friendly as possible. Also a level can be a little nicer after some challenging stuffs that authors want to insert, like being tsundere(?) as an example. There's grey between black and white.
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by Ryrir »

It really doesn't make much sense to talk about this in such an abstract way.
Why don't you guys (you said aterra and lolyoshi were with you on this) make a nice little list with all the changes you propose for v1.02?
I'm sure a compromise can be reached. And if the worst comes to the worst, we can always fall back on Jolpes idea and make two different versions of the hack.
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by morsel/morceau »

And of course we're not making a hack which is as friendly as possible. Also a level can be a little nicer after some challenging stuffs that authors want to insert, like being tsundere(?) as an example. There's grey between black and white.
I think what I object to is that I have no real idea what sort of hack we're making. There is a kind of cabal (secret discussion outside of this public forum) aspect to this, driven by the opinions of streamers which may be dubious. I once watched one of the guys mentioned play The Lion KIng (SNES), a game I am fond of, beating it when I was a child (and I didn't even own it! I played it on visits to my cousin's house), and I had very little time for the complaints made about it by the streamer (which were stridently echoed in the chat), many of which were his own fault -- there was a complete disjunction of opinion here that I wouldn't want to compromise on.
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by worldpeace125 »

Ryrir wrote:It really doesn't make much sense to talk about this in such an abstract way.
Why don't you guys (you said aterra and lolyoshi were with you on this) make a nice little list with all the changes you propose for v1.02?
I'm sure a compromise can be reached. And if the worst comes to the worst, we can always fall back on Jolpes idea and make two different versions of the hack.
Here. Feel free to give some opinion about each of them. According to this plan, some huge modifications can be made on kaizo levels and Star World.
a grand plan for v1.02.zip
(2.3 KiB) Downloaded 180 times
morsel/morceau wrote:
And of course we're not making a hack which is as friendly as possible. Also a level can be a little nicer after some challenging stuffs that authors want to insert, like being tsundere(?) as an example. There's grey between black and white.
I think what I object to is that I have no real idea what sort of hack we're making. There is a kind of cabal (secret discussion outside of this public forum) aspect to this, driven by the opinions of streamers which may be dubious. I once watched one of the guys mentioned play The Lion KIng (SNES), a game I am fond of, beating it when I was a child (and I didn't even own it! I played it on visits to my cousin's house), and I had very little time for the complaints made about it by the streamer (which were stridently echoed in the chat), many of which were his own fault -- there was a complete disjunction of opinion here that I wouldn't want to compromise on.
I think we're still aiming a vip-like hack trying to only capture the positive side of vip (e.g. variety, unique challenge), and hopefully embracing many players having different skills as much as possible. Admittedly it's tough to consistently achieve both; challenging, new(obscure) designs are too risky to satisfy many players, but can be much more enjoyable for certain portion of players. The two goals are kinda conflicting (Gamma V's hacks and their fans can be a good example *of the opposite side). Ideally, an expected player of this hack is anyone who is capable of average 'Hard' hacks on smwcentral. So it's alright to make levels challenging and unique and we don't need to consider novices. But not too much. I believe this(variety+aiming average of the 'hard' category) is the goal of the hack, and the best available goal for a hack under VIP category. Again I'm just putting my two cents.
It's hard to weight one against the other concretely, and we can usually do nothing but rely on some samples of actual playthrough (tests, streams, etc). Some negative opinions from streamers can be from their faults. But I think the others are valid, and good to remind some overlooked mistakes of the authors' side.

About the discussion(mostly light conversation) outside of the forum, we use skype. We used to use the talkhaus IRC(#JUMP), but I remember Daizo suggested to use skype due to file/image transfer things, and we moved to there. Anyone who participated in this project is welcome. If you want to join this, just let me know(my skype id is worldpeace_smw)
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by Ryrir »

Thanks for putting the list together! I think now the discussion should be a lot more productive, since we're talking about concrete stuff instead of vague opinions. (:

Let me throw my personal opinions around. As always, feel free to ignore them, but maybe once we see the points of view from multiple people, the ideal path to take will be clearer

First of all I have a question: Have you guys contacted the authors of the levels? I know that a lot of them are inactive, but if you're talking about Iso's levels (for example), I feel like his opinion should matter most, and since he is active on the talkhaus/youtube maybe you can send him a PM or something

Moving on to the individual suggestions:

Aquiferic Pressure: Of course I'm not sure to what extent you're going to edit this, but I can say that I felt like there really should have been a powerup in the one questionblock before the exit pipe in the first half. That way, you would not have to arrive as big mario to get the secret exit, but you'd have another chance to get a mushroom at the end.

Peaks of Revolution: I think that the use of blue/yellow switch blocks is a very good idea, especially if they would block the pits in the section where you have to bounce of boomerangs using spinjumps. Maybe yellow swtich blocks could even be used to provide more powerups? I'm not sure about the throwing blocks though, as I feel like the level could potentially become too trivial if you can just kill all the boomerang bros from a distance? Maybe it could work if you'd only place them in the really overwhelming sections... (Maybe if you give more powerups via yellow switch blocks, throw blocks wouldn't be needed?)

Perilous Pier: I think the most important part here is to place a one-up at the start of the second half. With infinite tries, the player really has the opportunity to learn the layout of the level and it would really reduce some stress. Not sure if an extra powerup is really needed though, especially when you can just retry again and again without punishment.

Cave of Layer2: Placing coins that can only be seen after beating the normal exit sounds fair, especially when the player has already gotten the hint at that point.

Chuck Magnet: Putting textboxes that explain things sounds like a good idea. I'm not sure about putting more switchboxes, I guess I'd have to see how they were implemented. What I'm really not sure about is making the reset-spheres respawn the chuck. Since the retry-prompts are literally before every single obstacle in the level, I feel like giving infinite tries would remove any challenge whatsoever. What I would do instead is adding another respawn point in the middle of the sublevel, and change the exit to all retry-spheres after that point to this entry. (Or alternatively, you could just remove some of the retry points, but that would come with the problem of the player getting stuck forever...)

Bridge Engineering: If I remember correctly, there was already a hint about this (showing how the mushroom could fall a long way down without despawning, it was a cave sublevel or something?). Couldn't you edit that sublevel to resemble the "real" level, like with the vine and some of the other obstacles along the way down? Maybe that would work better instead of just showing the player where to drop the mushroom?

Manky Bridge: The suggestions sound fair. Personally, I still have problems with the bullet jump right before the midpoint (I can't seem to get it consistently), but I suppose I'm just doing it wrong.

Keep a Positive Altitude: Instead of putting midpoints, I would insert the retry-prompt that lets you restart every sublevel. Just feel like it would look and play more smoothly, the outcome would be the same.

House of the Holy: Never really was a fan of the third midpoint being blocked off. Suggestions sound fair. In that case you'd probably remove the fireflowers though

Shell Shrine: Sure

Shouldering On: Sounds cool

Old Fogey Skie: I never had any problems with this... I feel like it would be a shame to remove them, since it was a rather original obstacle... It's all a timing thing, really, once you know when to start running it's not that hard. I'd say let it as it is.

The Green Switch: More message boxes can never hurt

Chains of Atrophy: If I were to edit this level, I'd just place a single midpoint in the room where you have to form the correct path for the snake using blue throw blocks. Putting a midpoint somewhere in that room would divide the level in three parts of the same length.

Cryophobia Cavern: I'd love to see faster layer 2 in this level!! I really, really hope that you can work this out somehow!

Disarray: As I said earlier, I can really live with these edits. Maybe you can come up with fairer obstacles to replace them (like still keeping one green koopa or something)?

Pixel Perfect: If you remember my post in the feedback thread, I suggested to just place two more midpoints: One after the first shelljump, and another after the yoshi jump in the second half. I still feel like this would work out the best, but if you'd redesign the whole level, it would probably turn out to be awesome as well, so...
I'm really against scrapping levels though. We made it so far without it, so it'd be a shame to start now.

Shell Sticker: Honestly, you could really just end the level after the blargg section. Nothing will be missed.

1F8: Giving the player the opportunity to bypass the level seems fair. I guess you'd just have to apply a yoshi filter after the wings block and somehow give an explanation and design the flying yoshi section?

Overworld Stuff: Again, I'm against scrapping levels / moving them to a different rom. The solution that would work out best (in my opinion) would be to make the levels not count towords 100% by not having them trigger any overworld events. If that's the solution we could agree on, there wouldn't really be a need for the blue shell / yoshi wing bypass anymore, right?

Super Grand Ultra Marathon Of Finalness: Always thought that the dragon coin gimmick was pretty... bad, honestly. So yeah, I think these edits would make the level better.

Miscellaneous Monument: After thinking about this, I'm really not too sure that this needs any extra midpoints. Yes, it will be tedious, but then again, it is really one of the final levels in the game. It's allowed to be hard. But it's not like I have any huge objections if you'd find a way to make the mulitple midpoints work, so...


All in all I'm relieved (:
I feel like the edits you propose, while affecting the gameplay, are still relatively minor and would ultimately lead to a more fun playing experience. I don't think an extra rom with the original levels (like Jolpe proposed) would be necessary, since all the levels still keep their original spirit.
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by morsel/morceau »

I am sceptical that the proposed changes (which are generally minor) would prevent people from whinging. In that case, we may well be coming back to look at everything again in another couple of months (JUMP is a turd that won't flush). However (forgive the shouting, but the tabs won't be retained),

Perilous Pier by morsel/morceau
> make this level forgiving for a world 4 level
(suggestions)
- lower teleport tiles
-YOU COULD JUST SWIM UNDER THE PORCU THEN (YOU SHOULD ASSUME PLAYERS ARE ASSHOLES AND WILL DO THIS); I THINK IT MAY BE POSSIBLE TRIGGER THE TELEPORT AT A PARTICULAR HEIGHT (WITH A SUB-TILE COMPONENT) THAT DISCOUNTS THIS POSSIBILITY.
- put an 1up mushroom at the beginning of 2nd half
-YOU GET ~150 COINS BY PLAYING OUT THE LEVEL -- MAYBE MORE SHOULD BE NEAR THE BEGINNING; I DONT LIKE JUST GIVING A LIFE (WHAT IS THE POINT OF LIVES THEN?)
- perhaps another powerup somewhere in the 2nd half
-SWITCH BLOCK DEPENDENT WOULD BE BEST (AND MAYBE AT THE VERY BEGINNING TO HELP COLLECT THE FIRST D. COIN).

Manky Bridge by morsel/morceau
> make this level more forgiving
(suggestions)
- shift/remove the invisible falling spike in the 2nd half
-IT CAN BE ANTICIPATED, SURELY, BY THE PROVIDENT PLAYER? ALSO THERE IS A POWERUP RIGHT BEFORE IT SO IT SHOULDNT KILL YOU OUTRIGHT THE FIRST TIME.
- disable timer in the 2nd half
-HIGH IS BETTER THAN NONE (COUNTLESS EXAMPLES OF UNINTENDED STUCK FOREVER POSSIBILITIES THROUGHOUT THIS HACK AND OTHERS)
- another powerup (as what discussed on the forum)
-IS OK

House of the Holy by morsel/morceau
> make this level more forgiving
(suggestions)
- allow resetting in the second half(normal route) by falling into the pit
- I CONSIDERED THIS ALREADY BUT "(WHAT IS THE POINT OF LIVES THEN?)"; A CLEAR MESSAGE THAT THE BLOCKS MUST BE KEPT ALIVE COULD BE ADDED WITH THE MANY(MORE THAN 2) MESSAGES TECHNOLOGY.
- allow the midpoint(secret) even when you don't have a flower or a cape
- THE LEAST OFFENSIVE AND BEST DESIGNED OF ALL HACKS, SUPER MARINA WORLD, DID THE SHY MIDPOINT GAG IN SEVERAL LEVELS; I DON'T AGREE THERE IS ANYTHING WRONG WITH IT (IT'S ALSO THERE BECAUSE I THINK THE BIG BOO IS TOO EASY)
- put extra platforms(grey falling platform?) in the boss room, since a blind player wouldn't know they're supposed to press right
- MAYBE START ON A BLOCK THAT FLIES OFF TO THE LEFT?

Shouldering On by morsel/morceau
> because of throw block filter, you can be suddenly killed by munchers
(suggestions)
- remove the munchers in the boss room (just a pit would work)
-BUT THE THROW BLOCK FILTER SHOULD BE FAMILIAR BY THEN? AND A PIT WOULD ALLOW YOU TO HIDE FROM PROJECTILES (LAME PLAY). YOU COULD (AFTER REPLACING MUNCHERS) RAISE GROUND AND FILTER BLOCKS SO YOU AS TO REPLACE ONCE ANNOYANCE WITH ANOTHER (HAVING TO PROSECUTE THE FIGHT FROM THE AIR).

The Green Switch by morsel/morceau
> not very sure if it helps but it's good to put a message explaining that baby yoshis and jumping keys are despawn when they're offscreen
-MANY MESSAGES TECHNOLOGY SHOULD EXPLAIN ANYTHING (POTENTIALLY) OBSCURE (ALTHOUGH, WITH THE MOVIE, IT SHOULDNT HELP ENOURMOUSLY); THIS WAS THE ONLY THING WRONG WITH THIS LEVEL???

Regarding levels that aren't mine, I should probably follow my own metric and mind my own business, but there are things I feel should be commented on.

"KAIZO SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED !!"
Why not? The hack was said not to fit into the 'Hard' category of smw central, but these categories didn't exist when we started the hack and they are poorly defined anyway. Why force JUMP into this awkward hole? Some of these levels barely qualify as kaizo in any case. The new Pixel Perfect is not that hard anymore (there are two formidable hurdles remaining: the shell jump (which you could allow multiple tries at, with some sort of cache for the shell to repair to if you miss), and the falling springboard near the midpoint (which could be regularised -- you currently should scroll from the first block, and scrolling from the second renders things trickier, therefore if you replace the second block with a cement one, and place the springboard on a coin, it could eliminate all confusion as to how to tackle this part)). Shell Sticker is not too hard either (I took 20 something minutes to beat this), and is an odd Frankenstein's monster of a level which doesn't seem exactly "in place" on the overworld; and although it's not my decision what should be with it, I think it should be retained if only to keep 125 exits (a fitting tribute, even if it wasn't planned (I don't know), to the person who saw the hack to completion).

"Chuck Magnet by doownayr98
> make this less annoying. this level makes players feel really stupid."
I thought this level was easier and more approachable than the similar levels in SPLU (I hated those), but it's essential that this level annoy you so that killing the chuck at the end has some justification.

"Keep a Positive Altitude...Chains of Atrophy...Miscellaneous Monument"
If you watch his lps, Isocitration is tremendously patient with games and is willing to take them own on their own terms, so it's disheartening to see him meet with the intolerance of others who are unwilling to extend the same courtesy to him. These levels are designed as they are on purpose and I think that should be respected.

Ryrir wrote:Manky Bridge: I still have problems with the bullet jump right before the midpoint
Let go of the block before bouncing on it? Otherwise it's just timing.
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by Ryrir »

Re morsel: Lives are kinda meaningless anyways because of the live farms. By world six, you'd definitely have gained access to them.
The problem witch Perilious Pier was (in my case) that you lose waaaay more lives than you gain by coins. When I played the level, I felt like it was rather memory-based (of course not all of it, you are able to do everything on your first try if you have fast enough reflexes, but especially if you go for the dragon coins you have to know what's going on). It's really frustrating to play when you have to worry about lives, because you have to play the whole first half again if you game over, and (if you haven't unlocked special word yet) the only life farming opportunity is the world 3 house, which gives you only 4-8 lives per try. By giving the player a one-up at the start, they could really focus more on the level (an external source of stress would be completely removed) and in turn, the level would be a lot more fun. At least that's the way I see it.

Edit: maybe there can be a compromise where the one-up is not at the start of the section, but midway through? Like on the long upwards slope after the "A" made out of fishes
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by morsel/morceau »

This sort of thing (maybe later in the level) is a possible compromise (+/- a normal mushroom). I'd still prefer adding more coins, though.
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by worldpeace125 »

What if your life counter won't be decreased by the retry system, when you have only one or two lives? Bad playing will still be penalized if you have usual amount of lives, but it would allow you to focus on the level without exiting.
morsel/morceau wrote:Why not? The hack was said not to fit into the 'Hard' category of smw central, but these categories didn't exist when we started the hack and they are poorly defined anyway. Why force JUMP into this awkward hole?
Not sure if it can be that bad to follow the standards even though we admit the fact, since kaizo in this hack takes only the small part. Furthermore, I'm certain there was a clear boundary between hard and kaizo even before the category was made or we started this project, and we were making a hack like VIP that doesn't contain any kaizo level. Actually it was aterra's or my fault that these levels weren't rejected :/
In my opinion, kaizo levels are at issue not because of their difficulty, but because of their style; you need to struggle and die many times for every small progress.

Regarding levels after the final level(Shell Sticker, 1F8), we're going with the 3rd option: make them accessible from the left side(where pixel perfect is). Shell Stickers and 1F8 will become optional for 100% clear (**123), but we'll leave them without changing/discarding kaizoish parts (opinions in the aformentioned group were converged to this option). And we can say these levels(actually the movies of them) will function as rewards for obtaining all dragon coins; "congrats on collecting all dragon coins. and have some show."

Now it seems two kaizo levels - Disarray, Pixel Perfect - are going to be tweaked. I guess Disarray was already discussed enough. I'll take your opinion of Pixel Perfect.

In case you're curious about 125: It came from 120 usual exits + 5 exits having no overworld layer2 events (4 switches + bowser's castle). If possible, I could've received more levels from people who wanted make more(e.g. Nin). However I thought it would be very time consuming to extend the table for the 121st event sequence (also the overworld space). That's the result.
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by worldpeace125 »

I feel my stance has become more organized when writing PMs. Let me clear my current thought for 3 big issues.

- Suggesting each level to be nice:
Due to the lack of the beta test done by blind players, some problems in this hack weren't revealed. Then they suddenly came to light and gave bad experiences to some type of players. I or aterra are responsible for this result, so I have to ask authors if their levels unintentionally hurt some players, as opposed to what they expected. For levels which are in the case, I'd really like to give them chances to be updated, so the problem could never happen for a greater number of potential players.
Come to think of the motive, it's reasonable that the decision should be really up to authors. If they think there are no problems, I'd better follow them. Perhaps it's implicitly shown that I've been eager to see things modified too much. I need to calm down a little bit. :oops:


- Having levels after the real final:
So far, most people agreed that it's awkward. Definitely I'm on the side of changing it. I'm also with the majority of opinions: The levels will become optional(have no exits), and they are accessible from the star road of Bowser's Castle(after beating Pixel Perfect?).


- Kaizo levels included in the exits (also, see the LP request thread):
I was kinda persuaded very easily, but now I think it's reasonable to think there should be no kaizo levels too. They are far from our goal(VIP style, target players, ...), and should've been rejected. I'm aware of some huddles mentioned by morsel, and perhaps I feel so uncomfortable with them(especially the shell jump) regardless of their difficulty. Optional kaizo levels are fine with me, since players won't be forced to beat them and they'll be amazing rewards anyways.
I was thinking of Disarray and Pixel Perfect for being kaizo in terms of precision which usually requires a number of deaths. But Gourmet Hindrance also can be seen as a kaizo levels by another view, since it demands trials and errors. Like, it's in the category of Super Mario World Remix.
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by Ryrir »

... and it's accepted.
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lolyoshi
don't fake the funk on a nasty dunk.
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Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by lolyoshi »

about time!
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Ryrir
Posts: 486
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Location: Switzerland

Re: -Main Discussion (FINALLY Updated Base ROM Here) Thread-

Post by Ryrir »

... and it's featured on the front page of SMWC!
Heck yeah!

Again, congratulation to all of y'all, seeing the finished product in action is really, really cool (:
this is getting laundromatic
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