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THE PLAN

The second SMBX collab!
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Rockythechao
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Re: THE PLAN

Postby Rockythechao » 1 year ago

Oh, the aspect ratio is definitely something we want to change but the tech's probably not going to be around for Ep. 2. Even if it were all the existing levels and bosses were made for a 4:3 screen size.

Also, I mentioned this in a PM but I should probably say it here as well, we will be doing

a Broadsword level in W6-8

after all but it won't take up any of the remaining slots or replace an existing level or claim. There'll be more details on that once we're closer to releasing the devkit.
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Re: THE PLAN

Postby Rednaxela » 1 year ago

Rockythechao wrote: but the tech's probably not going to be around for Ep. 2. Even if it were all the existing levels and bosses were made for a 4:3 screen size
Hah... I mean.... if there were strong cause to, I bet I could make that possible in time for Ep. 2 no problem.... but yeah no, not something to do in the face of all the existing levels/bosses being designed around how it is.
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Re: THE PLAN

Postby SAJewers » 1 year ago

Honestly, you guys are probably just better off starting fresh anyway.
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Re: THE PLAN

Postby Hoeloe » 1 year ago

SAJewers wrote: Honestly, you guys are probably just better off starting fresh anyway.
The levels we have are mostly incredible, actually. A few need minor tweaks and fixes, but for the most part the game itself is amazing even though the levels are slightly older.

On top of that, I for one don't exactly want to delay the development by another year just for the sake of it.
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Re: THE PLAN

Postby Isrieri » 1 year ago

Heyo. A thought came into my head "I wonder how that A2XT thing is doing" and came to check it out.

I'm onboard for a final round of testing & bugfixes when then time comes, feel free to ping me, and I'll try to keep tabs. I'm not good for Lua wizardry, but I can make a World 1 thing if its needed. (SAj said 'first come first-served' so...)

The levels we have are mostly incredible, actually.
If the levels are as I remember them, I agree with that statement.

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Re: THE PLAN

Postby WestonSmith » 7 months ago

Thought I'd drop in and see where things were at. Is this project still active in any way?

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Re: THE PLAN

Postby Rockythechao » 7 months ago

The project is half waiting on beta 4 fixes to be included in the private build the devkit will use, half waiting on me to finish game-wide code. If the latter isn't finished by around mid-July and the former is then we're likely going to proceed without it.

EDIT: There are some asset-related things folks can help with in the meantime, mainly sound effects, costumes, and sprite replacements for Beta 4 NPCs. The costumes are mostly being done by Chaoxys but any other contributions help, and I'll try and get a thread set up for the NPCs in the next few days. People are also welcome to join us in the dev chat on the codehaus discord server, DM me or hoeloe on discord, or PM us here on the forum.
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Re: THE PLAN

Postby Hoeloe » 7 months ago

Apologies it's been so long and so silent, but please believe me when I say there's good reason for it. The devkit is infuriatingly close to being ready for release, it just needs these last few pieces slotting into place.

As Rocky says, there's still a few things people can do. In terms of graphics, we'll probably need a few more world map graphics too, so that may be something else people can work on.
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Re: THE PLAN

Postby WestonSmith » 7 months ago

No need for apologies, I just have more time in the summer months to mess around with SMBX and thought I might help out with testing and fixing up levels. I have no idea what discord is, so I'll just sit tight until someone says the project is moving forward again.

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Re: THE PLAN

Postby ano0maly » 7 months ago

Discord is a popular chat program catered towards the gaming community. Much of the activities of forums like this A2XT forum have been shifted to Discord servers.
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Re: THE PLAN

Postby Hoeloe » 7 months ago

The Codehaus discord server is where A2XT2 development is happening, though it's all private at the moment.

I feel like I should say that, right now, we are on step 4 of the plan. While tech has changed somewhat (we are no longer using CinematX for example), the majority of stuff is ready, there are just a few pieces of tech left before we're ready to move to step 5.
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Re: THE PLAN

Postby SAJewers » 7 months ago

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Re: THE PLAN

Postby Rockythechao » 7 months ago

Oh jeez. Between that and the looming threat of Article 13, the next few weeks could get pretty interesting...

Well, uh, regarding that thread I said I'd try and get up "in the next few days" like a week ago, I underestimated the amount of work that needed to be done to get things ready for it. I've been setting up an asset list document for keeping track of which assets already have custom graphics/audio, which ones need them, which ones might be worth editing or replacing to avoid copyright issues after Ep. 2, etc. But there's still a good chunk of info that either needs a second pass for accuracy or is outright missing.

Well, for the time being here's the document in its current state. Once I've got at least the NPCs mostly filled out I'll start the thread for claiming stuff and begin sending the basegame images and audio for claims through PM.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
Last edited by Rockythechao on 06 Jun 2018, 01:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: THE PLAN

Postby Super Maks 64 » 7 months ago

Is there any reason why some of the enemies use the A2MT redesigns while others like Thwimp (Weight) and Charlie (Flower Guys) don't?

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Re: THE PLAN

Postby Rockythechao » 7 months ago

The thwimp was because we forgot about the A2MT weight at the time and gave Chaoxys the okay to go ahead with his idea. The Charlies are because they're an iconic enemy in the ASMT canon and raocow's LPs and also they're already on the merchandise we didn't want to pass up the opportunity to include an old redesign done by raoguy himself.

EDIT: Here's an old gif of the new Charlie, btw
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Re: THE PLAN

Postby SAJewers » 7 months ago

If it helps at all, here's the A2MT gfx thread, where you can grab some unused stuff and re-use if you want (iirc some of the current gfx was taken from there), and here's the original "let's replace the smbx gfx with a2mt stuff" thread, which may have some ideas.
Rockythechao wrote: which ones might be worth editing or replacing to avoid copyright issues after Ep. 2,
Any reason why after Ep2, and not now?

EDIT: also, are you just doing sprites, not backgrounds/blocks/etc?
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Re: THE PLAN

Postby Leet » 7 months ago

it's a fangame it's underground + non-legal by nature

i see no reason to suddenly start caring about the law when we haven't before now
ImageWell it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
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Re: THE PLAN

Postby Rockythechao » 7 months ago

SAJewers wrote: If it helps at all, here's the A2MT gfx thread, where you can grab some unused stuff and re-use if you want (iirc some of the current gfx was taken from there), and here's the original "let's replace the smbx gfx with a2mt stuff" thread, which may have some ideas.
Thanks, I'll try and go through those tomorrow.
EDIT: Oof, 78 pages... well, I probably won't get through that whole thread tomorrow, but let's see if I can at least make a sizable dent.
Any reason why after Ep2, and not now?
Enough of Episode 2's story and content has been made with the basegame's decorative block/BGO/background graphics and characters like Kood and other copyrighted stuff in mind. Ep. 3 is a chance to start fresh.
EDIT: also, are you just doing sprites, not backgrounds/blocks/etc?
There's tabs for the other asset types on the bottom. The eventual goal is having replacements for all assets, but again, there's a lot of info to fill in on those spreadsheets and I'm the one doing the bulk of the work on filling them in. I prioritized NPCs since those tend to be the things folks are most interested in making sprites for and those along with functional blocks, BGOs, etc. will have the most noticeable impact for now.
Leet wrote: it's a fangame it's underground + non-legal by nature

i see no reason to suddenly start caring about the law when we haven't before now
- We've had several cases of people threatening or outright attempting to get Nintendo to take down SMBX
- The SMBX2 devteam wants to have a safety net in case push comes to shove and all of Nintendo's and other companies' copyrighted assets have to be removed
- There's overlap between the SMBX2 devteam and the A2XT2 devteam
- The A2XT resource pack is the most viable option we know of right now

And to be honest I'm personally interested in the ASMT series becoming its own thing beyond "a fangame", and I'm fairly confident that I'm not the only one with that sentiment if the reactions folks had to the GUrP game were anything to go by. I'm not saying that we should go commercial or make it some over-sanitized mainstream schlock, but I do think the "ABCD canon" has a strong-enough identity separate from the Mario stuff and I'd rather we help refine and strengthen that identity than keep it in the shadows of other IPs.
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Re: THE PLAN

Postby Leet » 7 months ago

Ignoring the fact that nintendo will literally only take action if asmt/smbx gets reported in the news somehow (thanks for snitching on all those games kotaku), I don't really get how an explicit declaration of "don't do this" is any more game-changing than an implicit one. nintendo isn't actually a threat to fangames, you can still find am2r on the very first page of a google search.

i do agree that base"rom" sprite replacements being unique is a good thing for the quality of the game itself, but i'm concerned about how one would go about making ASMT 100 percent original while still basing it on raocow + allowing individual level makers creative freedom. ignoring mario itself, i think some of the best surprises in the series have been levels based on games that raocow's played (Nitroid level, Black Plague level, Cat Planet level, etc.) and i would hate to see that crossover element vanish

i'd ask if people will be expected to compose their own music too, if they don't want to use base music, but then again, i already disagree heavily with how music is treated in these games as is (removing music based on whether it will deny a video ad revenue? wtf?)
ImageWell it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
Blood Ghoul wrote:Sometimes it seems my blood spurts out in gobs, as if it were a fountain's pulsing sobs. I clearly hear it mutter as it goes yet cannot find the wound from which it flows. Before I met you, baby, I didn't know what I was missing.

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Re: THE PLAN

Postby Rockythechao » 7 months ago

The music and crossover stuff are good points. While we have been composing a decent amount of music specifically for Ep. 2 that could be recycled into later games, some of it is rather specific to characters and contexts and overall it's probably still not enough variety... it's certainly difficult to find public domain that fits the exact mood one has in mind and doesn't sound generic as heck. And I've been making notes of stuff that would be fun to have levels for in Ep. 2 or Ep. 3, like 225 Jefferson Street; we could still do that with a generic owl but it wouldn't quite be the same without that Wario Land owl.

But while Nintendo generally does ignore fangames unless they're related to their current projects or a large amount of publicity forces their hand, we don't want to assume that won't ever happen to A2XT or SMBX. They may get more attention than we expect at some point, or copyright law could change and force them to be more proactive; even if/when Article 13 fails, another proposal could come along and potentially pass. I can't say how likely it'd be but I don't think it should be dismissed as a possibility.

SMBX receiving a takedown technically wouldn't mean the absolute, certain end of the engine, but the extent of the backup plan would determine how soon the project could get up and running again and how much interest we'd be able to maintain for it during the downtime. If it happened now things would be more or less dead in the water for some time while we replace all the remaining assets; the people in charge of hosting the communities, media presence and source code don't want to tempt fate and act against a copyright holder's demands should we get on one's bad side, and I really don't blame them. In the meantime there's no guarantee that those folks, the other members of the dev team, and other notable individuals who've been supporting things in other ways would stick around, because realistically there's a point where it's just too much trouble for hobby projects when everyone has their own lives to worry about.

So I do still think that it's important to get the A2XT basegame to a point where it's got completely original assets... but you're right regarding how the ASMT series not being entirely its own thing is a big part of what makes it special. So I guess at the very least there's no need to limit levels based on that kind of strict copyright avoidance, but imo it'd still be a good idea for the Ep. 3+ devkit graphics to replace Kood with an ABCD or other series-original species and modify details like large enemies' shapes and the goopa shell design so they don't resemble the original Mario sprites.
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Re: THE PLAN

Postby SAJewers » 7 months ago

So i take it then you want to re-write the script and modify levels to remove that stuff then. fair.
Rockythechao wrote: And to be honest I'm personally interested in the ASMT series becoming its own thing beyond "a fangame", and I'm fairly confident that I'm not the only one with that sentiment if the reactions folks had to the GUrP game were anything to go by. I'm not saying that we should go commercial or make it some over-sanitized mainstream schlock, but I do think the "ABCD canon" has a strong-enough identity separate from the Mario stuff and I'd rather we help refine and strengthen that identity than keep it in the shadows of other IPs.
IIRC there was discussion at one point about the possibility of that, make something in the Demo Universe that could go on Steam.
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Re: THE PLAN

Postby Rockythechao » 7 months ago

I need to spend less time responding here and more time working on lua stuff and the spreadsheet, so here's what would've been another novella condensed as best I can.

To be 100% clear on my stance, I am not arguing for any sort of copyright scrubbing in A2XT Episode 2. Apologies if anyone got that impression, but that wasn't what I was getting at. All I meant to say is that it would be best to make all new base assets copyright-safe and, after Episode 2 is done, it would be worth revisiting the old base assets that look like these:

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And changing them to not be palette swaps, obvious edits, a koopa, and the genie from Aladdin.

Now, as far as graphic replacements and music for levels go... I realize I'm far from the first person to push for a sort of "legitimization" of the ASMT series and I was being overzealous in that regard. I'd very much like it if we could start setting the stage for possibly going full indie at some point in the future, doing what we can to leave that option open and make the transition easier when/if everyone is ready to make that jump (provided raocow would be okay with it). But Leet is right, there's no need to give up entirely on stuff from other works in the meantime, especially not stuff from rao's LPs.

So, the TL;DR of what I'm suggesting:

Episode 2: Old base graphics stay, Kood remains part of the main 5, new base graphics are completely original, anything goes with levels
Episode 3: All base graphics are completely original, Kood put on a bus and another character becomes the new Peach, anything still goes with levels
After that: We'll just cross those bridges when we get to them

EDIT: I got so caught up in this discussion I forgot that the policy for Ep. 2 is still that any raocow references should still work on their own merits. So technically "anything goes as long as it's not confusing/unfunny without context"
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Re: THE PLAN

Postby SAJewers » 7 months ago

Rockythechao wrote:
Now, as far as graphic replacements and music for levels go... I realize I'm far from the first person to push for a sort of "legitimization" of the ASMT series and I was being overzealous in that regard. I'd very much like it if we could start setting the stage for possibly going full indie at some point in the future, doing what we can to leave that option open and make the transition easier when/if everyone is ready to make that jump (provided raocow would be okay with it). But Leet is right, there's no need to give up entirely on stuff from other works in the meantime, especially not stuff from rao's LPs.
I feel like for that you should be going to A3XT instead of A2XT3 imo; otherwise i agree.
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Re: THE PLAN

Postby ano0maly » 7 months ago

If Kood isn't in the next iteration or future iterations I would adjust story/cutscenes of Episode 2 a little bit to give him a proper departure. I don't want him to be remembered as just a joke character from start (his origins in Drama Mistery) to finish.
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Re: THE PLAN

Postby Rockythechao » 7 months ago

We've talked about it, but with the way the plot is structured it doesn't give many opportunities for a proper send-off. The credits might be the best place, but the postgame also explicitly takes place after the events of the finale so we'd need to shoehorn in some kind of explanation for him being with the krew again.

One possibility we were planning on suggesting when we get to the pre-planning for Episode 3/A3XT: in the time between the two games Kood and Pily get married and go off on their honeymoon. Ep3/A3XT would start right when they get back and Kood ends up being a stay-at-home turtle while Pily joins the krew to literally bring home the bacon (plants). Alternatively, the game could take place while the two are still off doing their own stuff (the player would get occasional letters/postcards), prompting Demo and Iris to track down another character and drag them along on the new adventure because "we need a new Kood, you'll have to do".

Also, the topic of Kood's departure reminded me that Superb Demo Sisters 2 is a thing and I still owe that project lua stuff. So assuming that starts development either alongside A2X2 or after, maybe that game could serve as an interquel with its story tying into the wedding or whatever we end up doing to resolve his character arc?
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