Episode 2 Theme/Town Thread

[TiKi]

Okay the guy who's against the item box is right, stuff like the vine could muff up certain situations. And I got the armor idea from "Megaman in Megacity", a megaman metroidvania (it is as fun as it sounds), a game I beat 4 times

[Holy]

I just don't see the real need for some kind of currency. If the raocoins were only collectable once and the challenge was to go and seek out the raocoins from each level that had them, that makes sense because it's fun for people to go back and do those kinds of challenges for extra rewards.

Putting minigames and powerups behind coin barriers seems lame to me. I don't wanna manage my funds in a platformer game. If I'm having trouble with a level, 1. going to the town for a powerup and 2. going to a different level, grinding for a raocoin or two, then going to the town for a powerup are the exact same thing except one's more time-consuming.

I don't care that much either way, and I agree it's cool we can do it now (jesus christ the ability to save variables to outside of a single level, the new cutscene thinger, lua, all of that is pretty damn awesome), I just wanted to say I didn't think it was too great an idea.

Also, I think expanding the towns could be done more organically, like I dunno you save a guy from some level so he opens up a minigame in the town or whatevs.

[Doctor Shemp]

Seconding what Holy said, as well as my earlier points about being against farming in earlier levels for bonuses in later ones, being against anything that substantially adds to the testing workload, and being against anything that forces people into participating in the raocoin system by restricting things with in-game abilities to shops only.

I get it, it is really cool that we now have the technology to do this. But the fact that you can do something is not a reason for doing it.

[TiKi]

Forcing? Do some people purposefully dodge raocow coins? As long as the prices for the permanent stuff are NOT set up to assume you got 5 coins from every coin level, it's fine with me to add replay value.

[Doctor Shemp]

Forcing? Do some people purposefully dodge raocow coins?

Do level designers put them directly in the main path? No. They're always slightly out of the way, otherwise what's their function really?

[Mabel]

Forcing? Do some people purposefully dodge raocow coins? As long as the prices for the permanent stuff are NOT set up to assume you got 5 coins from every coin level, it's fine with me to add replay value.

I will avoid every coin unless they are required to get leeks(and I hate dat shit cuz it's always them Xbox hueg smbxc type levels that force you to get them)

[TiKi]

Huh. I don't tend to make seperate rooms for my coins or anything, a tricky jump at worst, and some are almost handed to you. I DO know exactly what you are talking about

[Rixithechao]

1. going to the town for a powerup and 2. going to a different level, grinding for a raocoin or two, then going to the town for a powerup are the exact same thing except one's more time-consuming.

And that's a fair criticism, it's one of the biggest issues with the idea that we've been discussing thus far. At the beginning the game the difficulty and pricing should be balanced such that you'll always have enough raocoins for what you need, but as the game goes on it'll be more and more difficult to obtain even one raocoin, much less three or four.

I think that in order to make the system work, we'll ultimately have to do one or more of these things:

1. Regulate raocoin distribution a bit more; encourage level creators to use them as rewards, make sure they're not too risky to collect in endgame levels, etc.
2. Scale down prices over the course of the game, perhaps through a membership or points system; as players purchase more items -- or upgrades to a new rank in the next town -- they get bigger and bigger discounts on everything, with some of the lower-tier items becoming free. OP powerups go from 8 RC to 6 RC to 4 RC to 2 RC, "mid-tier" powerups go from 5 to 3 to 1 to free, lesser items from 3 to 1 to free, and then mushrooms are always free.
3. Include ways to obtain raocoins besides collecting them in levels. Add a blackjack minigame, trade in your current reserve item for raocoins, get them as rewards for sidequests, etc

In addition to stuff like the filter warnings (which, again, is not a bad idea. I was just being a doof yesterday!)

Also, I think expanding the towns could be done more organically, like I dunno you save a guy from some level so he opens up a minigame in the town or whatevs.

Not sure why you spoilered that, but yesss. Doing stuff in levels to unlock stuff in towns would be pretty dang cool.

Basically, an idyllic beach resort that doesn't really want you to leave...

Having a town that you have to actively break out of would be a nifty idea, though after the first time there should be some way to make coming and going easier, like a permanent shortcut to the exit or something.

[sedron]

I guess I'll reiterate here that I, too, would like to make a town. No idea how one gets to do one but yeah.

[Oddwrath]

Include ways to obtain raocoins besides collecting them in levels

Binding of Isaac has blood banks, which you use to trade hearts for cash. We could do the same, except lives for raocoins. Except, of course, since lives are so easy to get compared to raocoins, it would have to be, say, 5 lives=1 raocoin.

On a theme subject though, so far we have Ectoplasmania and Deep Terror, both spooky levels and both got pretty good reviews so far. If WestonSmith's Night Light Fright, turns out to be great(when it is finished), then we may have ourselves a dark/ghost/spooky world. What I'm saying it, I'm calling dibs on the dark ghost town.

[Sturg]

I kind of feel that people are reserving spots for towns that were not sure what's going to be in them just yet. I think once we have an idea what levels we have how each town should build somewhat around those levels, people can start reserving. There's no way to determine which town you're going to make and think we're jumping the gun (including myself).

[Hoeloe]

I kind of feel that people are reserving spots for towns that were not sure what's going to be in them just yet. I think once we have an idea what levels we have how each town should build somewhat around those levels, people can start reserving. There's no way to determine which town you're going to make and think we're jumping the gun (including myself).

I agree, to some extent. I think people having ideas for towns now isn't a bad thing, but that we should hold off making them until we have a better idea of the surrounding levels. Then the concepts can be tweaked appropriately.

My town concept relates to one of my levels, but I'd rather hold off making it until I know some of the other levels in the same world. That way, I can include references to other levels a well as just mine.

[Sturg]

I also agree, but if someone comes up with this great idea before it happens and it falls through due to not having enough time or lack of resources, then it'd probably be best to wait and have a reserved spot later when we know for sure someone is actually available (and if it's possible) to do so.

People coming up with ideas is fine, just don't bite more than you can chew before even knowing you're going to do it.

[Hoeloe]

I also agree, but if someone comes up with this great idea before it happens and it falls through due to not having enough time or lack of resources, then it'd probably be best to wait and have a reserved spot later when we know for sure someone is actually available (and if it's possible) to do so.

People coming up with ideas is fine, just don't bite more than you can chew before even knowing you're going to do it.

Yeah, that seems sensible. Definitely should be kept to vague concepts rather than actual designs at this point, until we have more info.

[TiKi]

-> ifnpc *whatever the soda can is* is dead, bank and set var "escaped" to 1
If escaped=1 activate #1337
#1337
TriggerSMBXEvent "HideWall"

Bam done

[Hoeloe]

If you're just learning, I recommend giving LunaLua a go. It's a lot easier to work with due to having even slightly sane syntax.

[sedron]

I have ideas for a town, but at the same time I can work with a given theme.

I just know that there are a lot fewer towns than normal levels, so getting a spot is likely difficult. I'm just worried that if I don't say something now I'll lose the chance, y'know?

[Hoeloe]

I have ideas for a town, but at the same time I can work with a given theme.

I just know that there are a lot fewer towns than normal levels, so getting a spot is likely difficult. I'm just worried that if I don't say something now I'll lose the chance, y'know?

I expect this is why a lot of people are mentioning it now, myself included. I didn't get a chance to contribute to episode 1 until right at the end (and even then all I could do was make a couple of graphics), so I'm eager to make up for it in episode 2.

I think mentioning that you're up for it now is a good thing, but we should wait until we have a better idea of the levels before designing anything in detail.

[Voltgloss]

The more I read/think about the currency notion, the more I subscribe to the "sounds cool but very complicated and we really don't need it" camp. And when I say "complicated," I mean complicated to balance, not necessarily complicated to code (I have no idea how complicated it is to code).

Here's my suggestion: For levels with a well-hidden secret (leek or otherwise) for which a hint could be useful, simply have a sign or recurring NPC appear at the end of the level with the hint - but only if all raocoins have been collected. Have this happen in the level so it's far simpler to get working and regulate.

Potentially, the recurring NPC could be

Uncle Broadsword himself. He's all about gathering treasure - show him you can do the same and he'll reward you with advice.

[Hoeloe]

The more I read/think about the currency notion, the more I subscribe to the "sounds cool but very complicated and we really don't need it" camp. And when I say "complicated," I mean complicated to balance, not necessarily complicated to code (I have no idea how complicated it is to code).

Here's my suggestion: For levels with a well-hidden secret (leek or otherwise) for which a hint could be useful, simply have a sign or recurring NPC appear at the end of the level with the hint - but only if all raocoins have been collected. Have this happen in the level so it's far simpler to get working and regulate.

Potentially, the recurring NPC could be

Uncle Broadsword himself. He's all about gathering treasure - show him you can do the same and he'll reward you with advice.

Coding it is pretty simple, and mostly done, do that front is irrelevant.

As for balance, I'm not sure it needs much balancing, as it's not giving any content that changes how you can play the game, balancing is less of a problem.

That suggestion is a potentially good one, as it gives some incentive for raocoins, but I do have some issues with it. Firstly, it only gives incentive on levels with secrets, and often levels don't have secrets other than the raocoins themselves, which kind of defeats the purpose. Secondly, it also means adding in the NPC, and then more code spliced into each level that needs it, which takes a lot more work than a global system. Thirdly, it doesn't add anything to the towns, which is one of the purposes in the first place. One of the big complaints of episode 1 was that the towns were sort of just there, but didn't really do anything. The raocoin system (I was to stop calling it a "currency", as that seems to put people in the wrong mindset - it's not about farming raocoins until you have enough money to buy X thing, it's about playing the game, and returning to the town once you have collected enough to explore some more. Sure, you could farm if you want, but it shouldn't be necessary. The plan wouldn't be to make the game easier if you collect more raocoins, just to give the player access to bonus content, such as more areas of town to explore. It provides an incentive to visit the towns more than once, as the first time you visit, you're unlikely to be able to do everything.) was suggested as a way to add more flavour to the towns. By putting them in the levels, that completely removes one of the major purposes.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think this idea is bad, but I'm not sure how much use it will actually be.

[Voltgloss]

Perhaps what we need - or, at least, what I would like to see so I can understand better how this works - is for someone who knows how to code this to go ahead and code a simple "shop" example so we can see this in action. I'm thinking an episode file containing:

- a "shop" level, which is one screen, with a shop, where the player can buy a beet for 1 raocoin, a cactus for 3 raocoins, and a spinach for 5 raocoins;
- a "level" level, which is simply a level that has raocoins in it - either an existing level or a placeholder; and
- a VERY simple overworld linking the two.

As to balancing - one example problem I had in mind is that of powerup filters. If we implement a spend-currency-to-buy-powerups system, and then we have filters in levels (ANY levels) that remove players' powerups, everyone who buys a powerup only to have it filtered away will feel cheated. So, for those suggesting a currency-for-powerups system: do you think powerup filters should be removed? If not, how should that problem be dealt with?

[Hoeloe]

As to balancing - one example problem I had in mind is that of powerup filters. If we implement a spend-currency-to-buy-powerups system, and then we have filters in levels (ANY levels) that remove players' powerups, everyone who buys a powerup only to have it filtered away will feel cheated. So, for those suggesting a currency-for-powerups system: do you think powerup filters should be removed? If not, how should that problem be dealt with?

One suggestion was that the leek sanctuaries have warnings of in-level filters, which leaves it up to the player to avoid purchasing powerups before those levels.

Another alternative would be to not sell powerups in that way. For example, you could instead give a one-time payment for access to powerup spawners. Rather than spending 1 raocoin for a beet, you could spend 3 raocoins for access to a beet spawner, the purchase of which would be saved, so you don't have to buy that again. This removes the issue of filters, as if you do get filtered after buying your powerup, you can just go back to the town and get a new one free of charge.

This also works well with the raocoin system, as you choose which powerups you get access to. You could spend 3 raocoins for a beet spawner, or save up for 6 raocoins for a fire flower spawner, for example.

Removing filters from levels is a bad idea. We could potentially save the powerup the player had when they entered the level (before being filtered) and restore it at the end, but this has its own problems. I made a level that, with certain powerups, could potentially have half of it skipped, so removing filters isn't really an option.

An example of all this working is what we need. I understand some libraries to help with this are being worked on as part of the cutscene system.

[Demolition]

One suggestion was that the leek sanctuaries have warnings of in-level filters

We should include this even if we don't go with the currency system, I thought it would be helpful to have in episode one.

[Rixithechao]

Perhaps what we need - or, at least, what I would like to see so I can understand better how this works - is for someone who knows how to code this to go ahead and code a simple "shop" example so we can see this in action. I'm thinking an episode file containing:

- a "shop" level, which is one screen, with a shop, where the player can buy a beet for 1 raocoin, a cactus for 3 raocoins, and a spinach for 5 raocoins;
- a "level" level, which is simply a level that has raocoins in it - either an existing level or a placeholder; and
- a VERY simple overworld linking the two.

As to balancing - one example problem I had in mind is that of powerup filters. If we implement a spend-currency-to-buy-powerups system, and then we have filters in levels (ANY levels) that remove players' powerups, everyone who buys a powerup only to have it filtered away will feel cheated. So, for those suggesting a currency-for-powerups system: do you think powerup filters should be removed? If not, how should that problem be dealt with?

Treading old ground again. Check the link in my sig, that post links to a mini-faq I wrote earlier in this thread. Gonna hafta add the filter forecast stuff when I get back to my computer.

[Voltgloss]

Treading old ground again. Check the link in my sig, that post links to a mini-faq I wrote earlier in this thread. Gonna hafta add the filter forecast stuff when I get back to my computer.

I read the mini-faq you wrote before making my post. My point is that we should see the currency/shop concept in action. Your description helps, but a working example would help even more.