raocow's talkhaus

I think we'll stick with the Hybrid HUB like with Episode 1, if that matters.

Cool, I was wondering.

When it comes to difficulty balancing, world selection, and connecting levels, I think three tools are at our disposal:

Tool 1: Take what you get and try to mold it
This seems to be what happened with Episode 1. Take any level thrown in and try to make it work within the bounds of difficulty and world themes. Results in some very uneven difficult and level themes within worlds (World 3 springs to mind).

Tool 2: Hack and slash the submissions
The folks in charge would need to make changes to fit levels together for difficulty and theme. The obvious downsides are (A) Making changes to levels without the authority of the authors and (B) The sheer volume of work required to cobble the levels into a more seamless adventure.

Tool 3: Take submissions based on the needs of the project
Based on what you end up with above, we'd then seek out or request levels that match the difficulty and theme needed.

As a composite of the three options, I'd suggest the following strategy:

(1) Open submissions as is and take what you can get
(2) "Close" submissions after "X" number of submissions
(3) Try and build world themes and plots. Either dump levels that simply do not work, or find an alternative place for them (i.e. post-game, hidden side missions not attached to the main game, mini-games, maybe even entire side worlds that have no bearing on the main game)
(4) Start editing the existing levels to match difficulty and "link" them together
(5) Re-open submissions to fill in the missing holes for each world (i.e. we need a World 1 Forest-Theme level. It could be overworld, underwater, ghost house, whatevs, as long as it fits the difficulty and can be "linked" to a forest theme).

Again, lots of work in the editing phase, but I think the result is a stronger overall package, with less of a mish-mash feel.

Maybe do a Hybrdid of that: Open submissions, and as we accept and approve levels, we start to slot them into worlds, until we reach a point where we have the theme and difficulty of each world, then only approve levels that fit the needs of each world.

Also, how many Worlds do we want? Stick with 8 + Zebraspace, like before? When do we want to bring in the Uncles? In Episode 1, the Siblings were only brought in in World 4 because Johnson McCain was deemed a good start off point, but had to be in World 4 due to difficulty.

Finally, I think it might be a good idea to Semi-open submissions. If you have a level in here that you want to submit, and move it to here. Then we can go through the other levels that are there, and maybe some people can pick those levels up and claim them, or submit them in the author's place if they look finished.

Pholtos: If you're reading this, can you do video reviews again?

Is Ep 1's difficulty curve that out of whack? Like, there are spikes and lulls, but I don't remember anything being game-breaking.

I think we want to have a reasonable consistency in the difficulty curve, but we shouldn't be afraid to have some variance, either. No game has a perfect difficulty curve, and I don't think being really strict to get closer to that ideal is worth it.

Also, we can always be a bit looser with where a given level fits. A lot of them will probably be able to fit into more than one world.

SAJewers wrote:Finally, I think it might be a good idea to Semi-open submissions. If you have a level in here that you want to submit, and move it to here. Then we can go through the other levels that are there, and maybe some people can pick those levels up and claim them, or submit them in the author's place if they look finished.

Instead of removing all the levels from here, you should have really moved them to here. You just removed a lot of download links for the levels entirely from the wiki.

For example every single level I had submitted, was only on the A2MBXT_Levels/Episode2 list (and so were almost every level from Post Levels Here page.) A2MBXT Levels page had only 52 levels on it, and the remaining 61 were on that other one.

Edit: Fortunately the levels can still be found from the history.

Edit: I moved the missing levels to here: http://asmbxt.wikia.com/wiki/A2MBXT_Levels?cb=662. The problem should be now solved.

Edit: I also made the table there sortable by the level name and the author. This will make finding levels a lot easier from now on.

sedron wrote:Is Ep 1's difficulty curve that out of whack?

if not for story purposes, Johnson McCain should have been in world 7 or 8, not world 4(and some people still thinks its too difficult for where it is despite receiving so many nerfs already)
World 5 is noticeably harder than World 6 and 7 save for 1 or 2 levels

Willhart wrote:

SAJewers wrote:Finally, I think it might be a good idea to Semi-open submissions. If you have a level in here that you want to submit, and move it to here. Then we can go through the other levels that are there, and maybe some people can pick those levels up and claim them, or submit them in the author's place if they look finished.

Instead of removing all the levels from here, you should have really moved them to here. You just removed a lot of download links for the levels entirely from the wiki.

For example every single level I had submitted, was only on the A2MBXT_Levels/Episode2 list (and so were almost every level from Post Levels Here page.) A2MBXT Levels page had only 52 levels on it, and the remaining 61 were on that other one.

Edit: Fortunately the levels can still be found from the history.

Edit: I moved the missing levels to here: http://asmbxt.wikia.com/wiki/A2MBXT_Levels?cb=662. The problem should be now solved.

Edit: I also made the table there sortable by the level name and the author. This will make finding levels a lot easier from now on.

Well, I previously said I was doing that, so, not really my fault.

Mabel wrote:

sedron wrote:Is Ep 1's difficulty curve that out of whack?

if not for story purposes, Johnson McCain should have been in world 7 or 8, not world 4(and some people still thinks its too difficult for where it is despite receiving so many nerfs already)
World 5 is noticeably harder than World 6 and 7 save for 1 or 2 levels

There was also the Monty Python level that was quite easy being in World 8.

As long everything doesn't feel disconnected, like parts of Episode 1 did, then I'll be happy.

SAJewers wrote:There was also the Monty Python level that was quite easy being in World 8.

Don't forget that it is important to have levels that are too easy for the world, it's more having levels that are too difficult that's the problem. ASMBXT suffered a lot because it didn't have any break levels. Having levels that are too easy stops the game being a slog.

The fact that world 8 was easier than world 5 is indeed a problem though.

SAJewers wrote:Finally, I think it might be a good idea to Semi-open submissions. If you have a level in here that you want to submit, and move it to here. Then we can go through the other levels that are there, and maybe some people can pick those levels up and claim them, or submit them in the author's place if they look finished.

Should a PM be sent to the level designers who have levels on the list, to alert them of semi-open submissions and that - if they're ready to submit - they should move their level(s) accordingly?

I moved mine over. I kind of want to redo a section in one of them, but I don't know if I'll have the time to do it so I just submitted it anyway.

Voltgloss wrote:

SAJewers wrote:Finally, I think it might be a good idea to Semi-open submissions. If you have a level in here that you want to submit, and move it to here. Then we can go through the other levels that are there, and maybe some people can pick those levels up and claim them, or submit them in the author's place if they look finished.

Should a PM be sent to the level designers who have levels on the list, to alert them of semi-open submissions and that - if they're ready to submit - they should move their level(s) accordingly?

That or raocow mentioning it in a video. Something along the lines of "Hey, if you made a level, speak up now, or someone else might claim your level".

I don't mind though going through those levels and moving over levels that look finished (or just moving them all over, and having people prune out the unfinished levels)

Willhart wrote:

SAJewers wrote:EDIT: Also, what's up with the new launcher thingy? I haven't kept up with that at all. Are we using that? Do I need to worry about the title screen music?

The launcher makes it easier for people to use lua, since it does not trigger warnings. It comes with the newer version of lua automatically.

You might need to ask Horikawa about the extra launcher thing we use for MaGL X2 though.

What is this Extra Launcher anyway? I'm still kinda confused.

SAJewers wrote:

Willhart wrote:

SAJewers wrote:EDIT: Also, what's up with the new launcher thingy? I haven't kept up with that at all. Are we using that? Do I need to worry about the title screen music?

The launcher makes it easier for people to use lua, since it does not trigger warnings. It comes with the newer version of lua automatically.

You might need to ask Horikawa about the extra launcher thing we use for MaGL X2 though.

What is this Extra Launcher anyway? I'm still kinda confused.

It allows skipping the normal title screen, and there is a dropdown menu for entering any specific episode, lvl-editor, or the wohl-editor. It was the thing with that train graphic on the top on the maglx2 ep0 video. It is very magl flavored though, and I'm not sure if it is required for this episode.

Willhart wrote:The launcher makes it easier for people to use lua, since it does not trigger warnings. It comes with the newer version of lua automatically.

Willhart wrote:It allows skipping the normal title screen, and there is a dropdown menu for entering any specific episode, lvl-editor, or the wohl-editor. It was the thing with that train graphic on the top on the maglx2 ep0 video. It is very magl flavored though, and I'm not sure if it is required for this episode.

Whoa, hang on a second! You mean this new launcher doesn't get flagged as being infected by antivirus programs?

Willhart wrote:

SAJewers wrote:

Willhart wrote:...

What is this Extra Launcher anyway? I'm still kinda confused.

It allows skipping the normal title screen, and there is a dropdown menu for entering any specific episode, lvl-editor, or the wohl-editor. It was the thing with that train graphic on the top on the maglx2 ep0 video. It is very magl flavored though, and I'm not sure if it is required for this episode.

To give that a real perspective:
I intended it to be a replacement of the original launcher window (as it uses an Internet Explorer frame with a hardcoded webaddress). The new launcher is using the chromium engine (the engine which google chrome is using) with the advantage that you can directly set the webpage via config file.

Now Horikawa went a step further and suggested me to do that as a "per-episode" basis. This feature is still a bit experimental and not quite finished yet.

The -per-episode basis thing shouldn't matter for us.

Removing the need for a title screen sounds interesting though.

ztarwuff wrote:

Willhart wrote:The launcher makes it easier for people to use lua, since it does not trigger warnings. It comes with the newer version of lua automatically.

Willhart wrote:It allows skipping the normal title screen, and there is a dropdown menu for entering any specific episode, lvl-editor, or the wohl-editor. It was the thing with that train graphic on the top on the maglx2 ep0 video. It is very magl flavored though, and I'm not sure if it is required for this episode.

Whoa, hang on a second! You mean this new launcher doesn't get flagged as being infected by antivirus programs?

I was talking about the lua launcher on the first post. It uses different way to do the lua stuff, and should not appear as a virus anymore. You can get it by downloading the latest version of lua. It also fixes issues from smbx like the decimal thing and the mushroom lava bug, + it also optimizes the engine.

The second quote was for a different thing.

sedron wrote:Is Ep 1's difficulty curve that out of whack? Like, there are spikes and lulls, but I don't remember anything being game-breaking.

I think we want to have a reasonable consistency in the difficulty curve, but we shouldn't be afraid to have some variance, either. No game has a perfect difficulty curve, and I don't think being really strict to get closer to that ideal is worth it.

Also, we can always be a bit looser with where a given level fits. A lot of them will probably be able to fit into more than one world.

Personally, I found World 8 to be one of the easiest worlds in the game, probably following 1 & 6.

It's just that I feel the difficulty needs to be more consistent as the game progresses. You don't want all the more difficult levels in Worlds 4/5 and then suddenly the games lulls until the post-game.

Willhart wrote:

ztarwuff wrote:

Willhart wrote:The launcher makes it easier for people to use lua, since it does not trigger warnings. It comes with the newer version of lua automatically.

Willhart wrote:It allows skipping the normal title screen, and there is a dropdown menu for entering any specific episode, lvl-editor, or the wohl-editor. It was the thing with that train graphic on the top on the maglx2 ep0 video. It is very magl flavored though, and I'm not sure if it is required for this episode.

Whoa, hang on a second! You mean this new launcher doesn't get flagged as being infected by antivirus programs?

I was talking about the lua launcher on the first post. It uses different way to do the lua stuff, and should not appear as a virus anymore. You can get it by downloading the latest version of lua. It also fixes issues from smbx like the decimal thing and the mushroom lava bug, + it also optimizes the engine.

The second quote was for a different thing.

I don't see any launcher in the latest download of LunaLUA.

SAJewers wrote: I don't see any launcher in the latest download of LunaLUA.

It is Lunaloader or something like that.

Nope, not there.

SAJewers wrote:Nope, not there.

Ask one of the lua people then.

LunaLoader is contained in the vanilla+launcher package: http://engine.wohlnet.ru/LunaLua/

OK, Unless I get a reason otherwise, I'll put out the Updated Base Game, and the update to Episode 1 tomorrow, and We can open submissions.

The lunaworld.lua thingy can come later I don't think there's too much there that would effect a level's design too much (outside the ticking p-switch thingy) that we need to wait much longer.