Episode 1 Level Review Thread

[Mabel]

last i tried it was without any powerups...

its really, really hard. the sheer speed science moves just makes those shots feel random and really hard to read.

[Septentrion Pleiades]

At those high speeds it's you pretty much need to go into all defense mode(he's literally impossible to hit like that). I find those shots are pretty easy by themselves. It's when you make an offense that he throws the horizontal shots into the mix.

I do have the version with the power-up upload. I am dead set against making the boss entirely tank-able with power ups, because it could seem like a luck base fight if someone manages that sort of victory. Two power ups would mean that the player will have at least as many hits(3-5) as the boss.

Mabel, your post is a bit ambigious. Did you mean you tested the newer version(which has the power up) without power-ups? It could have also mean you did the old version(which doesn't have the power up)

One last point: This is the first boss where you don't have to play through a level again when you die..

[Mabel]

I played the one without the powerups available.

[ztarwuff]

Right, I'm testing the version of the Science Battle with the powerup, which I only found after trawling through the Post your Levels thread. Your wiki page still has the old version to download.

I'm going to put it all in spoilers, because I had a look at how the fight was constructed and want to ask details about its construction.

It's neat what you've done with the Lemmy sprite, but that's unpredictable enough as is without throwing in a layer that alters its speed. It took about twelve tries for me in about twenty minutes before I could actually beat him and even then I'm sure it was a fluke because I played a further twenty more minutes and haven't been able to beat him a second time.

It telegraphs when it shoots. That's fine, but there's no telegraphing to the player of when its about to speed up or even when its about to slow down. To me it just seemed random even though I know it couldn't possibly be random. This brings me onto my two questions:

What are the slow events for and what are the cooldown events for?
Why did you pick 5 seconds and 3.5 seconds respectively?

Now Danmaku and bullet hells work because the pattern is precise and predictable. You can learn which spots are safe because the trajectory of the projectiles is always the same from the originator i.e. the boss. It cannot work like that if the trajectory changes depending on the position of the boss and the player. That's not learning. That's pure reaction and if the player isn't good enough, then the player isn't going to get through.

At one point I had three projectiles flying nearly horizontal across the screen. It took forever for them to disappear. They frustrated me, because they prevented me from safely jumping up onto the platforms and making an attempt to hit the boss several times.

One more thing. I maybe wrong on this, because I can actually seeing it being beneficial as well as a hindrance, but why are there solid blocks in the middle of the platform? It just makes it more difficult for the player to get up onto the platform in order to jump onto the boss. Now I removed the blocks to see whether it would make a difference and I did find that I got hit more. With the blocks there, I spent more time on the ground and thus was safer because I was more intent on dodging the projectiles rather than trying to hit the boss. But then, conversely, that meant I was spending less time trying to end the fight, thus dragging out the length of the battle.

I have mixed feelings about this battle.

In theory it's not difficult, but in practice you just have to decide when would be a good chance to have a go at hitting the boss and those opportunities don't seem to come about very often. It's more frustrating than difficult because the fight forces you to fight conservatively, but when you do that, you miss all sorts of opportunities and you kick yourself for not taking them.

[Septentrion Pleiades]

The blocks were mostly a on the fly aesthetics choice that I can change.

I can telegraph the speed state science is in with sounds, based on the latest Dev Kit. That would give the player a better idea of when to attack.

[docopoper]

Ok, from playing the mid-game Science battle:

Could you please at the very least add a second leaf. I know you don't want people to tank hits - but honestly the fight is too hard (and as the creator - you are naturally going to be a bad judge of difficulty).

In fact, may I also suggest shrinking the hitboxes on Science's projectiles so that they are maybe 2x2 pixels, this is a very good way to reduce difficulty in a way that will make the player feel good. As it is it is simply too hard to dodge the projectiles and I felt like I was getting cornered too much. The player will always be happy to let generous hitboxes slide.

Spoiler - but I want everyone bar raocow to read it:

As for the final battle:

I honestly think the level would be improved dramatically by the removal of both pseudoscience and the second phase of science. The level is just far too long and far too difficult because of these bosses and I don't feel like they add to the level. The level itself is four levels long for gods sake without having a really hard boss followed by a really hard boss followed by an incredibly hard second phase. Even if pseudoscience and the second phase were easy - I still feel they make the level too long.

Does anybody have a problem with me removing them? (especially Septentrion Pleiades - since they are your bosses)

[Doctor Shemp]

I haven't played the boss and don't see that much point in doing so since I'm terrible at custom bosses and really bosses in general regardless of how hard they are (and so would not be a good judge of the difficulty) but I just want to say that the creator of a level is always the worst judge of how good or hard something is, and should always value the opinions of others above their own. I'm not just picking on Sep here, this applies to everyone on the dev team including myself.

[SAJewers]

Starting to think it might be a good idea if people go test the Final Level Boss for Difficulty as well?

[docopoper]

Starting to think it might be a good idea if people go test the Final Level Boss for Difficulty as well?

I've played it quite a bit and I honestly cannot beat the miniboss or second phase. And I honestly don't want to either, I feel like the final boss's first phase is pretty fun now that I minimised the hitboxes - but the second phase makes it too hard and long, and the miniboss itself isn't fun at all.

It takes ages to get back to the miniboss from the start and the boss itself ends up making me hope that I survive what feels like randomness followed by hoping I don't get hit by the randomness coming from the boss while attacking.

[SAJewers]

What recommendations do you suggest then on making both better?

[docopoper]

I was trying to think of that for ages (which is why I took so long to just call for a cut).

The big problem is that the miniboss is arguably twice as hard as a boss that was previously an entire level earlier in the game. That in itself feel like way too much to put the player through, and I still haven't managed to beat it without god mode.

The second phase of the final boss also just feels gratuitous to me. The final boss is already quite long and hard and the second phase is basically "Good, now do it again without a break but with more stuff shooting at you".

I feel this level is simply asking too much of the player for too long. To the point where player endurance comes in as a serious problem. If you can make the miniboss be miniboss difficulty (that means easier or just as hard as the encounter earlier in the game) - then I'd be ok with keeping that.
I think the second section to the main fight should just be cut though. When I finally managed to scrape my way past the first section (where it actually feels like you won) - I was honestly kind of horrified when I found out that there was an even harder and longer phase afterwards with no checkpoint whatsoever.

Honestly though - even having a checkpoint half way through the boss wouldn't fix it - because the second phase feels pretty much the same as the first but with more stuff flying at you.

[SAJewers]

The miniboss section should have generated projectiles you can throw via the grass. Is that still not enough?

[Mabel]

Could we just remove the miniboss part altogether? because the actual boss phases by themselves should be more than enough on their own especially considering their difficulty...(which to me atm is just hard enough without it being straight up unfair)

The miniboss section should have generated projectiles you can throw via the grass. Is that still not enough?

I guess, if you do it right the boomerang thing should be enough to nearly 1shot each miniboss

[Septentrion Pleiades]

I decided to reduced the hitbox for the science mini boss shots to 10x10. This means it's easier to attack and there is less repercussions to attacking.

It the OW fight, Sciences give sound cue to telegraph what state he is in. I also removed most of the solid blocks so it's easier. These change should make attacking much easier.

For the final level, his attack hitbox should also be reduced, but I don't feel like uploading a completely new version of the final battle just for that small change. I will be uploading a new version of the OW science fight soon.

[SAJewers]

Can someone test that then and see if it's any better?

[Mabel]

well im pretty terrible at it but I can consistently land at least 2 hits now before dying...
so its probably fine now....

[SAJewers]

Easier version of Science

http://www.mediafire.com/download/jwc5f ... e%20v3.zip

1)Didn't follow the filename convention, fyi.
2) IMO there should be some bit of text at the start that at least make it slightly more obvious when to hit Science, otherwise I just see raocow flailing about for 20 minutes.
3)Maybe consider increasing the length of time when you can hit Science?
4)Maybe consider as well using LunaDLL to filter out any powerups they have, then give a powerup at the start, so that the player has 2 hits for this.

[Septentrion Pleiades]

Easier version of Science

http://www.mediafire.com/download/jwc5f ... e%20v3.zip

1)Didn't follow the filename convention, fyi.
2) IMO there should be some bit of text at the start that at least make it slightly more obvious when to hit Science, otherwise I just see raocow flailing about for 20 minutes.
3)Maybe consider increasing the length of time when you can hit Science?
4)Maybe consider as well using LunaDLL to filter out any powerups they have, then give a powerup at the start, so that the player has 2 hits for this.

1) It never did as it was sort of an unique concept when it was first submitted.
2) Their is a sound to indicate when he is more vulnerable. Right now it's the demo hurt sound which sound be noticeable. I don't think it's necessary to have text explaining it.
3)currently it's 5 seconds, preceded by a rapid slowdown of 3.5 seconds. I could easily extend his vulnerability time, but I'm not sure by how much would be best for it.
4)I was never a fan of power up filters. If I could use it to get rid hammer hammer suit then yes, but I don't have a problem with the player going back for a mushroom of a leaf. I would prefer to give the second power up after the player survives a while.

I'm leaning a bit more towards increasing the vulnerability time, although it is possible to decrease he speed during that time. I did design him to be flexible, including he movement "AI" so that he could have multiple appearances. Decreasing his default speed might work well for the final battle if people still think that he's to hard.

For the OW fight, I want to give a feeling of being more like demo than a normal boss. He constantly fights back even when he's "vulnerable." The 5 second time can be increase to 6 or 7 which would be a major difference in game play. He should still be challenging.

well im pretty terrible at it but I can consistently land at least 2 hits now before dying...
so its probably fine now....

Does that mean you are beating him? I think he might be good were he is at. You could pretty much defeat him if you "go back" for a mushroom, and it wouldn't even be hard if you bring a leaf.

[SAJewers]

1) All the other fights follow the format, including the version of this in the DevKit.

2) I seriously doubt anyone would know or realize what the sound effects were for.

3)I would extend it. The few times i tried, I got screwed by him jumping or something, and was forced to wait around for him to slow down again.

4) I'm only suggesting that because otherwise most people would just farm for powerups elsewhere to gain more hits against the boss. Filter out all powerups then give 2 right at the start so they can't do that.

[SAJewers]

Went through all of world 6.

Slide Like You Mean it - When you Kill Lakitu, hide the Spawned NPCs to get rid of all the Ghosts.
Take it What Now - Maybe Spruce up the visuals, as it's visually kinda boring

Magma's Cove - You're using the SMB3 Leek exit Twice. That can't happen. This should've been rejected on that alone. I do not agree with how far you have to take the P-switch, and I feel the hidden block is a bit obscure (I doublt peopel will find it). Music sounds really out of place. Why is there lava at the end? Why is there a wall of bricks near the end?

Subterran Base - Can not complete as Sheath, with No filtering of Sheath in the level at all. I do not like the fact that the Jetpack is in a hidden block. I do not like how you're supposed to complete the Green Switch and think it should be be completly redone. You can fly over the Ceiling.

Descent/Descend - You can get yourself stuck by the Large Goopa Pipe. Need FIlter at Midpoint

Blue Surfer - Didn't try and beat the first half, but looks ok. Should we move it to another world?

[Doctor Shemp]

Went through all of world 6.

Just watched your playthrough of "A Short Stroll". You don't have the most current version. The most current version is just a few more graphical changes but still I'm going to point out that it exists. Also,

the part with the thwomps is very possible without getting hit. The platforms don't fall as fast as you seem to think they do, and if they've only fallen a little bit they'll stop falling when you jump. Therefore the solution is to trigger each thwomp by repeatedly jumping on the falling platform, not letting it fall, and edging into the thwomp's trigger zone, before jumping to the next one.

[Diggertron]

Can I have some people give feedback on the latest version of my level please?

[Joseph Staleknight]

Slide Like You Mean it - When you Kill Lakitu, hide the Spawned NPCs to get rid of all the Ghosts.

I tried doing that on my end, but somehow the ghosts won't despawn.

[SAJewers]

Here's World 7:

Island Place - Bomb Exomplsion effect and points don't need to be changhed. Not a fan of ths Boss

Ghosts in Space - Place a beet before the Spikes section. Maybe use different beets?

Town7 - Gray Leek Pillar needs to follow the same style as the others. Put Character Blocks by the Powerups so people odn't have to leave/reenter to powerup everyone. Some typos/grammer errors.

Item Babysitting - See video

Superhigh Skyway - Change some of the GFX such as Luigu, Link/Pheed, and especially the Fences so it doesn't look like you can stnd on them <other_sturg> Also, the music's really loud that i can't heat your voice.

Curtain Tortise - Make Toothie ungrabable. There a number of sections that could be made easier.

Castle of the World - See Video. May put this on the chopping block, especially if the music causes ContentID issues.

Also, it might be a good idea to swap World 7 and World 6, since World 7 is easier.

[Joseph Staleknight]

Curtain Tortise - Make Toothie ungrabable. There a number of sections that could be made easier.

• Chainsaw-grabbing issue's been fixed.
• On the difficulty, I noticed you had the most trouble with the first block shooters in the early section, so I tweaked it to make their blind spot bigger. I'm not sure about the other sections since they are meant to be difficult, but that first one definitely needed to be modified.