Episode 1 Discussion Thread

[Axon]

Hell, I'd even go so far as to use the same planets, just have different layouts for them: they're parallel universe planets.

I kinda disagree with this idea. For the sake of keeping things fresh, we should at least try to reuse the assets in a way that feels somewhat different. For example (and this is really just an example), the map of Episode 2 could be one large overworld (like in Super Mario World) with continents that use the different resources we already have. The resources that can't be used directly on the overworld could be used in submaps (e.g. a city submap).

[Voltgloss]

I think we need to first figure out what levels will be used for Episode 2, so we can then determine what themes make sense. Some of the same themes from Episode 1 might make sense to reuse; some might not.

[darkychao]

Basegames
If the plot is still that each episode is an alternate reality of the others, it makes sense to share resources. Hell, I'd even go so far as to use the same planets, just have different layouts for them: they're parallel universe planets.

I also think that if we reach a situation where someone could have more forks of SMBX on their computer than they have forks in their kitchen, that's a stupid situation to be in.

They're not supposed to be taking place in alternate reality, (technically the whole game is supposed to be universe hopping to collect the super leeks) they take place in alternate timelines,

where the survivor of the previous timeline (Kood, in ep1) urges the team to go searching for the super leeks in a different direction

.

[Hoeloe]

Basegames
If the plot is still that each episode is an alternate reality of the others, it makes sense to share resources. Hell, I'd even go so far as to use the same planets, just have different layouts for them: they're parallel universe planets.

I also think that if we reach a situation where someone could have more forks of SMBX on their computer than they have forks in their kitchen, that's a stupid situation to be in.

Even if this were done (which I'm not sure is the right direction - I'd much rather see new worlds with new graphics, even if they were along the same themes as the first episode), it's not taking into account that we'd either have to use an old version of LunaDLL for episodes 2-4, or update episode 1, which could be far more work than it's worth.

Sure, people might end up with a lot of forks of SMBX, but the same is true of someone downloading 4 separate romhacks. The fact of the matter is that the A2MBXT basegame changes base resources (graphics, music and LunaDLL), and this makes it not fundamentally different from a romhack in structure. While using 4x the hard drive space is not good, I think, considering the drive sizes most people have now, that the costs outweigh the benefits. It lets us keep each episode new and fresh, rather than feeling, at least in graphical and musical style, like a rehash of the first episode. Even if the game is set in a parallel universe, that's something that should be avoided. It's much more fun if it feels like a whole new game rather than like a DLC expansion for the first.

[docopoper]

Opinions & critics
You should never, ever disregard any opinion. If you stop listening to criticism you start producing shit. For example,
George Lucas when listening to criticism = Star Wars & Empire Strikes Back
George Lucas when listening to only some criticism = Return of the Jedi & Revenge of the Sith
George Lucas when telling his critics to take a long walk off a short pier = Phantom Menace & Attack of the Clones

I'm not saying we should bend entirely to these particular critics, because that would mean bending away from the people who like that kind of stuff, but that we should bend a little.

Just want to put forward that I do listen to criticism. I just keep bringing it up because I feel like some people focus on it too much. Like for example I did change the dipping floor in the Calleoca battle after you pointed it out because I saw your point and realised it was stupid.

it's not taking into account that we'd either have to use an old version of LunaDLL for episodes 2-4, or update episode 1, which could be far more work than it's worth.

I really don't want to have to do that. Especially because then it sets a trend that by the fourth episode I'm going to have to update the DLL to work with all the changes I've made from episode one through three. o_0

Sure, people might end up with a lot of forks of SMBX, but the same is true of someone downloading 4 separate romhacks. The fact of the matter is that the A2MBXT basegame changes base resources (graphics, music and LunaDLL), and this makes it not fundamentally different from a romhack in structure. While using 4x the hard drive space is not good, I think, considering the drive sizes most people have now, that the costs outweigh the benefits. It lets us keep each episode new and fresh, rather than feeling, at least in graphical and musical style, like a rehash of the first episode. Even if the game is set in a parallel universe, that's something that should be avoided. It's much more fun if it feels like a whole new game rather than like a DLC expansion for the first.

Again, most of the space usage is from the level packs anyway. So it's not like it's going to cost all that much extra space. And yeah, it feeling like a DLC is something I'm worried about. Especially since all four episodes would have to follow suit.

[tigermoon]

... That gives me another of my stupid dumb ideas...

If the separate EXE file thing is done, why not do an "A2XT Episode X.5: The DLC pack" between each episode using like fifty or so of the levels that just didn't make the cut? I mean, there's like a hundred currently unused levels right now and development on Episode 2 hasn't even officially started yet. It'd give each EXE file more than just a single set of levels to it, and there's also the added bonus that it'll give players something to tide them over between games.

Just a dumb thought.

[docopoper]

But having that surplus of levels allows us to have entry work in more of a competition style than a first come first serve style - which raises the quality barrier for entry.

If we did a 2.5 there would also be the question of whether to give it as much beta testing since the levels would probably be lower quality and that's a lot of work. It also kind of dilutes the perception of the series' quality to do that. Though yeah. No idea what we're going to do with all the levels that don't get accepted.

Honestly I think the best thing to do with all those extra levels is to release an extra game that contains all the rejected entries under that guise. Because really - there are some utterly crap entries.

[SAJewers]

I wonder if LunaDLL could be coded so that you can place your own LunaDLL.dll file in the level folder, and LunaDLL could read that code and execute it. That way Kil can update LunaDLL, and you can write your own stuff.

[Voltgloss]

My understanding is that

Kood is the survivor at the end of Episode 3, and then travels to the beginning of Episode 1. It's cyclical.

Sheath is the survivor at the end of Episode 1 and travels to the beginning of Episode 2.
raocow is the survivor at the end of Episode 2 and travels to the beginning of Episode 3.

[darkychao]

Still. What happened to the original kood. the kood from ASMBXT?

In this timeline he was replaced by a slightly older Kood from the future, it's the same Kood.

[tigermoon]

So... um... just discovered the "Total Demos" counter tracks the total amount of demos. Even for separate world folders or even separate save files for the same one.

Is that a good enough reason to have a new base game for each episode?

[ztarwuff]

Oh no. I'm really sick and tired of accumulating different versions of SMBX. I've currently got ASMBXT sharing resources with A2XT. Sure, it's probably broken some levels graphically and in terms of sound, but I don't see why I need multiple copies of the same program.

Besides which, the first episode hardly uses all of the graphical and sound assets we created for it. We can't let all that time and effort go to waste.

So... um... just discovered the "Total Demos" counter tracks the total amount of demos. Even for separate world folders or even separate save files for the same one.

Is that a good enough reason to have a new base game for each episode?

Or we could, you know, see if the demo counter can work from within a world folder instead.

[Hoeloe]

Oh no. I'm really sick and tired of accumulating different versions of SMBX. I've currently got ASMBXT sharing resources with A2XT. Sure, it's probably broken some levels graphically and in terms of sound, but I don't see why I need multiple copies of the same program.

Besides which, the first episode hardly uses all of the graphical and sound assets we created for it. We can't let all that time and effort go to waste.

As far as I understand it, all the graphics and music, with the exception of the overworld map, would be reused in episode 2. The major thing is having new overworlds, and a new version of LunaDLL.

[ztarwuff]

Oh no. I'm really sick and tired of accumulating different versions of SMBX. I've currently got ASMBXT sharing resources with A2XT. Sure, it's probably broken some levels graphically and in terms of sound, but I don't see why I need multiple copies of the same program.

Besides which, the first episode hardly uses all of the graphical and sound assets we created for it. We can't let all that time and effort go to waste.

As far as I understand it, all the graphics and music, with the exception of the overworld map, would be reused in episode 2. The major thing is having new overworlds, and a new version of LunaDLL.

That's fine. From what I've seen of Super Talking Time Bros., the world folders accept a limited number of custom graphics. For example, in Super Talking Time Bros 2.5, there's one custom level-10.gif in the world folder which is used in place of the default level-10.gif.

Do we really want to redo all the overworld graphics? Or are we, in reality, merely going to be replacing a select few?

Yeah, LunaDLL may be a problem, but shouldn't we at least attempt to make it compatible with the first episode before trying to go down the separate package route? No. They only changed between seasons, not during seasons.

[docopoper]

Don't forget that this isn't only for episode 2. The same rule we use here will probably have to persist for the rest of the episodes. So we will have to use the same world themes for every episode and the same world music.

[tigermoon]

Honestly, I'd actually rather avoid having one game per EXE if at all possible. I just know the Demo Counter thing would end up being a major hurdle if nothing's done with it.

[docopoper]

I guess I just find it weird having multiple exes be a problem... Since I can't think of a single normal game that shares an exe with its predecessors. Like I don't get how people couldn't just be used to that being a thing.

SMBX has spoiled you all.

[TiKi]

So exactly what prevented

redigitiscool

from being changed to

raocowisswell

? I mean I know the asmbxt1 said "this can't be changed apparently", but is that still an issue?

[Bryux]

redigit being cool

[ztarwuff]

I guess I just find it weird having multiple exes be a problem... Since I can't think of a single normal game that shares an exe with its predecessors. Like I don't get how people couldn't just be used to that being a thing.

SMBX has spoiled you all.

Which is why I hated the lot of you for not finalising the package in the first place. I kept having to revise my levels becuase you kept making changes to the graphics and sounds. It's absurd that we're changing assets in the middle of a run.

Does TellTale games change engines in the middle of a season? No. They completed Season 1 of Sam and Max, then upgraded. They completed Season 2, then they upgraded. You don't invest all that time in creating a package, then create another one to replace it.

New OW graphics can be inserted into the Episode folder. To avoid reusing too much of the OW music, we don't necessarily have to use an OW for the second or maybe the third game. We go back to a HUB for one of the games.

Now, if all of this fails, by all means, let us use a new base, but we keep the OW music that was not used in the first episode and we keep all of the graphics assets from the old episode. The only thing we don't keep, of course, are the OW graphics and those OW mp3 files that were used. Nothing else changes.

[pholtos]

I think next time I review an entire episode I'll probably give my thoughts on the level at the end. Would that be better than what I did for episode 1's review train?

[jayScribble]

Considering that raocow's LP is coming to an end in a few days, should we start preparing the Relay level for the second episode(as in, getting things prepared like rules and that before starting to pass the baton), or should we wait?

[Willhart]

Considering that raocow's LP is coming to an end in a few days, should we start preparing the Relay level for the second episode(as in, getting things prepared like rules and that before starting to pass the baton), or should we wait?

I think we should wait for the level order or something. Most people are probably tired or just out of ideas. There might be more activity right now though, when the LP is ending, so I'm not that sure either way. It'll be fun, if there is enough interest.

[docopoper]

Yeah. I'm waiting until the end of the LP to make more levels. I have no idea how you managed to make all those levels Willhart while still being so active in beta testing.

[Hoeloe]

I think we should wait for the level order or something. Most people are probably tired or just out of ideas. There might be more activity right now though, when the LP is ending, so I'm not that sure either way. It'll be fun, if there is enough interest.

I wasn't around when the levels were decided for episode 1 - how is it agreed on?