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Dungeon/Overworld Video Testing

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Lejes
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Re: Dungeon/Overworld Video Testing

Postby Lejes » 2 years ago

It could murder/stun certain enemies, like Pols Voice.

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Nabe
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Re: Dungeon/Overworld Video Testing

Postby Nabe » 2 years ago

I may be speaking from a certain side here, since I spent a chunk of time redesigning the mirror puzzle in Level 5 that uses the same gimmick. But there's no reason to toss that room out in Level 3 -- the Wizzrobes show you that things bounce on the mirrors, there's a Guy who tells you what to do, and there are a range of Y values you can stand at to consistently get a Whirlwind to hit the right mirror. That range happens to be different from the expected range visually, but as I said there are a few options to take that could make that work. It's a good and memorable screen.


Other things we could do with the Whistle (although it's well used as-is):

- Change the Whistle's item setting so that you can throw more than one Whirlwind per screen (this is crucial since it sucks to make the player leave the room if they aim incorrectly)

- Make the tune have an effect on certain enemies, as Lejes said

- Turn the Whirlwind itself into a script weapon that can affect certain enemies, or maybe have some effect like carrying bombs

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Re: Dungeon/Overworld Video Testing

Postby Doctor Shemp » 2 years ago



In this video I bought Heart Ring 1 and got the compass & whistle from Leever's Nest.

One major problem is that mirror room from before. 3 wizzrobes is just way too fucking much. It's a massive difficulty spike over everything previously seen in the dungeon. It is too much to ask for the player to read the screen and find the right spot to whistle in while dodging 3 fast moving projectiles that are 2-hit kills (1-hit kill if you skipped at least one previous dungeon) that bounce off the mirrors and shoot frequently from random mirrors. It is extremely difficult to visually process all three projectiles, what mirrors they're heading towards, and where they'll be going once they bounce off them. Even cheesing the puzzle is a big ask since you still need to dodge the projectiles.

Basically, tone it down to 1 wizzrobe.

Also I've noticed that the dungeon has no secret shortcuts, no optional rooms besides the one hint room, and is completely linear if you trace the correct path. Basically the only possible run to get the map, compass, whistle and (I presume) the heart container is a 100% run. It's basically a post-Ocarina dungeon. There's nothing wrong per se with that, but there's not really a feel of exploration about it: I constantly feel railroaded by the design. Basically what I'm saying is that it's not my bag, baby.

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Re: Dungeon/Overworld Video Testing

Postby raekuul » 2 years ago

While I agree that our overall design philosophy should be unified, I should point out that Etwas Ruins is going to have the same issue since it's hard to make a good explorative sidescrolling stage given the constraints.
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Nabe
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Re: Dungeon/Overworld Video Testing

Postby Nabe » 2 years ago

A good way to counter railroading (aside from bombable walls, which are harder to use for optional paths in sidescrolling) is to have optional keys. Another would be to have branching paths obstructed by different dungeon item obstructions from Levels 5, 7 and 8. Of course, since your dungeon gives out the Lens early (I think?) that opens up lots of branching path options.

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Lejes
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Re: Dungeon/Overworld Video Testing

Postby Lejes » 2 years ago

I decided to play through the first four dungeons myself as well. No video, but some thoughts.

The overworld feels a bit sparse. A lot of screens seem like they have copy pasted layouts. I assume more secrets are getting added in gradually? I feel like a better mid-tier enemy than Octorok 3 could be made. I have to agree with Shemp about level 2's boss. The final phase is slightly too fast to deal with. Wizzrobes should just be removed entirely from level 3, I think, since they feel out of place anyway. I also uploaded tiles + script for the boss to the Dropbox, but of course it requires extra setup to get into the main quest file because I'm terrible. Level 4 was nice, but it felt lacking in arrow drops. I also took a few screenshots of minor things I noticed while playing.

This DMap is NES dungeon type, so entering this screen from the left pushes you into the room and off the ladder. Also that jump in the middle feels more annoying than it should be.
http://i.imgur.com/SP0Kw2f.png

A strange warp return point. I think Shemp might have also pointed this out.
http://i.imgur.com/TCQ1FWy.png

Boulders on screens you can scroll into from above are almost guaranteed to hit you.
http://i.imgur.com/MdzLlDq.png

You straight up can't walk through this door. The other side is blocked too.
http://i.imgur.com/FghXLHV.png

Trying to jump onto the fairy tiles from below results in glitchiness. That combo type wasn't really designed with teleporting away mid-heal in mind.
http://i.imgur.com/WjqnH32.png

Speaking of holes, the current iteration of the hole script has an error.

Code: Select all

int comboLoc = ComboAt(Link->X+8, Link->Y + Cond(BIG_LINK==0, 12, 8));
This causes the top of holes to be too sensitive. The Cond(BIG_LINK==0, 12, 8) bit should just be replaced with 8. I'm not sure if the other BIG_LINK check needs to be fixed also, as I don't understand well enough what that part of the script is doing.

So, in the interest of maybe speeding things up, Nabe, do you need some help importing things? I'm not sure what your plan is regarding the tile and combo tables.

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Nabe
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Re: Dungeon/Overworld Video Testing

Postby Nabe » 2 years ago

I hadn't imported the giant Leever yet, because I was pretty sure I had read that Riolu still had some reservations about it.

Imports are mostly done for now. I'm waiting on Level 6 to bring over the rest of the maps, which is a zero-work process except for reassigning warps, nbd. Tiles and combos are done being merged, excepting my new stuff in the Boomerang minidungeon which is still being added to, and new stuff in Level 8 that I haven't added yet, as well as whatever's used in Level 6. The only other combo-related stuff is that I need to change some combo placements in Level 7 to account for their locations on the master combo table.

The latest overworld update fixes every issue except for the fairy room (I'm not sure why that needs to be there anyway). I've been gradually adding secrets, and I think other people should as well if they feel so inclined.


Holelava stuff:
With pits, 12 is the default because it meshes with Link's solid hitbox (lower 8x16 of his body) and the visual perspective that hitbox causes. At 12, half of Link's hitbox can be hanging over a pit from the top or the bottom. Enabling BIG_LINK changes it to how you say it should be, 8 pixels from top or bottom. Doing that makes Link's whole sprite into a pseudo-hitbox for pits, rather than just the lower half.

I played with it a lot while I was working on moving platform stuff, and I came up with a few situations where 8 doesn't work. Here's the worst offender:
zelda004.png
zelda004.png (9.59 KiB) Viewed 1737 times
Let's say BIG_LINK is enabled in this example, meaning Link can step 8 pixels over a pit from any direction. In this room, the player is supposed to take the staircase down into some room, then come back up the other staircase to get the Feather. Looks good. But in practice, not so good.

If you walk Link directly up against the bottom of the blocks on either side of the pit, his sprite will hang over the block by 8 pixels. Then, press left/right, and Link will be walking over the pit tiles, using every bit of his 8 pixel allowance. Press up, and you've got yourself a Feather without the hassle.

Why does this work? It's because BIG_LINK (i.e. 8 pixel overhang) is meant to be used only with the Large Link Hitbox option, which turns Link's whole sprite into a solid. (Which, it should be noted, is dumb-looking.)

Granted, that specific situation comes up never. But having that value at 12 rather than 8 also helps keep my moving platform script from being needlessly complicated. It also means that Link can't awkwardly stand 8 pixels over the top of the perspective pits that are used in Level 4 and everywhere else. The pit I use in Level 7 (combo 1991) makes the 4-pixel overhang a lot clearer, IMO.

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Re: Dungeon/Overworld Video Testing

Postby Doctor Shemp » 2 years ago

Video 4


Leever Nest (boss key, heart container & creator shard)
Overworld (Letter, Bait (doesn't work), Wallet Upgrade, Red Potion, White Sword)
Gargoyle's Domain (nothing, nada, zip)

Key points:
  • I really hope the Leever Nest boss is a placeholder, because it is extremely fun and interesting in precisely zero ways.
  • One kill room with a shifting floor is pretty dull, since the dominant strategy is to wait in the middle and attack leevers only when they get close.
  • The bait item didn't appear in my inventory when I bought it.
  • One bombable item room on the overworld (the one in a little indent in the mountain range that you have to approach from the other side) doesn't contain anything and spits you out in the wrong place.

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Lejes
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Re: Dungeon/Overworld Video Testing

Postby Lejes » 2 years ago

That boss is indeed a placeholder. The actual boss is in the whistle dungeon subfolder on the dropbox under the name leever.qst. No dungeon in that test quest, it just starts you out one room before the boss. Riolu180 thought it was a bit boring and easy, so I'd be interested to see what you think.

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Nabe
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Re: Dungeon/Overworld Video Testing

Postby Nabe » 2 years ago

The subscreen panels are repurposed comic panels from a.t.x.s. -- in the release, each panel will fill with art when all the items in that panel are collected. Obviously, the map is not final. I'm also working on some very wacky animations for the Shards. And in the release we'd change the item names so that they don't show up as e.g. "Boomerang 1 (Banana)".

The plan isn't to change the Goriyas to Banana Snakes, although I wanted to at first. In the Boomerang mini I treat the Banana Snake in a very special way that would go out the window if we used them everywhere as normal enemies. Whatever the Goriyas do end up looking like in the release, they won't be throwing bananas.

To my knowledge, Riolu is going to change the Boss Key room and a few other rooms in Level 3 so that they're not so tedious.

Most of the secret caves I added are just meant to be filled in with whatever needs a home, for the release. And that exit bug has been fixed.

The Bait doesn't appear on the subscreen because it's not on the subscreen. And it should probably be cut, unless anyone is really dying to come up with some uses for the Bait.

Do you still want the White Sword to be the Maintainer's Dagger? If so, write me some dialogue and I will sprite it as a squarish grey pointy thing.

The music for Gargoyle's Domain is really good, so if it doesn't go there it should definitely go somewhere. (Maybe as the generic track for Boomerang/Shield/Wand? ;D) I think it works well there, though.

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Re: Dungeon/Overworld Video Testing

Postby Doctor Shemp » 2 years ago

The rest of Gargoyle's Domain:


The fairy before the boss is placed really stupidly, and the bat room is cheesable. No other problems.

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Nabe
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Re: Dungeon/Overworld Video Testing

Postby Nabe » 2 years ago

WOW, that fairy is a dick. :D AlexanderXCIII used a built-in heal flag that awkwardly arrests Link when he steps onto it. It triggered when you jumped to the middle of the platform and made you fall into a pit, and it only triggers once per room. The sound glitch was caused by being stolen away to a different room by the Wallmaster.

Anyway, I'll rig up an alternative that avoids all of those issues. If you ever encounter a repeating sound glitch like that (which is unfortunately an engine problem) hopping to the Esc menu should cancel it.

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Nabe
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Re: Dungeon/Overworld Video Testing

Postby Nabe » 2 years ago

Level 5 is fully playable now through a debug room one screen south of the starting screen on the overworld. Most of my edits to it were graphical, so there are still a lot of enemy configurations that aren't great. The perspective of someone who hasn't played through it before would be really good, particularly on the enemies.

The debug room has most of the game's items in it, as well as the infinite items if you want to be cheaty. In order to tolerate Level 5, I'd recommend 7-9 hearts, and the second sword and shield, which I think is reasonable for the player at that point. The Chakram would also be accessible by that time. I should note, Sheath has no graphics for the second shield yet, so she'll look like she has no shield.

On the subject of the boomerang minidungeon, I'm hoping to merge it into the overworld today. So if you want to wait until that's mentioned in the changelog update, that dungeon would also appreciate some play. It has three sections accessible after Levels 1, 4, and 7 respectively. I'll set it up so that the entrance is in the debug room under "D6", since that portal is unused at the moment.

EDIT: That merge is now complete.

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Re: Dungeon/Overworld Video Testing

Postby Doctor Shemp » 2 years ago

Video 6


I really think using goopa sprites for darknuts is a very bad idea. Here's what comes to mind when I see a knight:
  • Intimidating
  • Powerful enemy
  • Don't attack it from the front
Here's what comes to mind when I see a goopa:
  • Non-threatening
  • Pushover
  • Attack it from above, which isn't even possible in this game
If you want to replace the darknut sprite, how about using a skeleton in armour like this? We already have skeletons in the game (I assume they're staying) and a skeleton in armour certainly looks intimidating. For higher-level darknuts, more spikes could be added to the armour, like this, only with a shield.

The shield is really necessary to indicate that you can't attack it from the front. There's nothing to indicate that goopas can't be attacked from the front. Indeed, since their face is there, they should be vulnerable from that direction.
Boomerang Dungeon: Part 1
  • I'm not a fan of including somewhat taxing platforming in a game that isn't designed for it, but it does work, although it has nothing really to do with the rest of the dungeon beyond checking that the player has the feather (which is necessary to complete the first part, so fair enough I guess)
  • The bananasnake statues should face the direction they spit bananas
  • One of the push puzzle blocks (the one that blocks a bananasnake statue) pushes faster than any other block
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I went into this underpowered because I'm an idiot. Also, maybe I have shit for brains, but I got stuck basically immediately and I don't know what I'm meant to do or where to go. It seems every path ends in a dead end.

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Nimono
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Re: Dungeon/Overworld Video Testing

Postby Nimono » 2 years ago

I think we could keep the Goopas, we just need to add two things: a shield and a spiky helmet. Both of them will tell players "hey, you can't attack from the front or above!" while allowing us to keep the Goopas. Although, I do agree that a Skeleton Knight might be better.

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Nabe
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Re: Dungeon/Overworld Video Testing

Postby Nabe » 2 years ago

Commenting along with the video.
- The L and R thing is definitely a mapping issue. The buttons for changing the A button item are Ex1 and Ex2.

- Overworld2 plays in the debug room, the minigame track plays on the overworld screen leading to the debug room, and Boomer is the track for the red tower segment. Not that that's particularly relevant.

- Don't mind the shoe :D The pink thing you picked up is a magic container.

- The boomerang minidungeon is currently accessible by the portal labelled D6 as a shortcut, and the D7 portal currently leads to the second section of that minidungeon (but using it, you'd miss a couple rooms of the first section).

- The "blue thing" on the subscreen is the piece of heart indicator.

- The beams on the tower are re-sprited enemy fireballs, which aren't blockable by Shield 1. That could be changed; to my knowledge, Shield 1 only blocks rocks.

- The snake statues that aren't facing the right way will definitely be doing do in the final -- right now though, the banana snake enemies only have two directions.

- I definitely agree about the Darknuts -- we just haven't really had an enemy discussion since the one ages ago.


- I didn't know there was another theme for Level 5. I agree that the dungeon's name should change.

- Recall, this is a collab. We did tell people to choose their own graphics, and in CodeGorilla's case he went pretty full-throttle on it. FireSeraphim's dungeons also have a higher level of detail than average, and there are other small spots of inconsistency everywhere in the graphics.

- The single discoloured crate in the bottom-right corner of that one room wasn't intentional.

- If you don't want to ruin your save file, you could start a new one to get more hearts. A player at this point could probably have an extra heart container and the second shield. That's not by way of apologizing for CodeGorilla's enemy placements, which need lots of changes, but it would help tolerate it long enough to give advice on those changes. I'm actually surprised that your save file is compatible with that version of the quest.

- The dead end in the sewers isn't one (probably somewhat unclear), and you missed a path on the screen super-saturated with blue Wizzrobes.
We could make it so that Darknuts are attackable from above. :D That said, JayScribble had a few enemy replacement sprites more recently, including a Darknut. I think they were in Planning thread.

Feel free to complain at length about the sideview stuff, because it can be fine-tuned easily, especially the moving platforms and ladders.

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Nabe
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Re: Dungeon/Overworld Video Testing

Postby Nabe » 2 years ago

I've rewritten all of the Level 5 text in the recent upload to fit the new style. Make sure to grab that for the next test. The old strings are still in the table if anyone wants a comparison.

EDIT: As of December 15th, make sure to update your file for the next test if you already have, as a lot has changed.


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