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Wandering Around Again (New Wand Subdungeon?)

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thatguyif
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Wandering Around Again (New Wand Subdungeon?)

Postby thatguyif » 3 years ago

Hey guys, it's thatguyif. I took over for LaularuKyrumo in making the Wand subdungeon. While the gimmick is a great idea, looking at what was done, it seemed like the map got a little overambitious for a subdungeon. So I decided to start from scratch. No side view section. A simple 5x5 level (I could make it 6x6 with enough pushing, but that might overdo it a little. This is subdungeon, not a full dungeon), most of the level is a side warp maze (though there are doors on occasion). I've come up with a few fun/mean ideas, but I need to find out if they make sense.

1. A couple of the rooms will have side warps that are simply dungeon exits. Is it possible for a DMap to have multiple exits but only one entrance?
2. Basically, the trick to make it difficult would be a combination of increasing enemy/trap difficulty, with all rooms having enemies respawn. It becomes a bit of an endurance trial. Would that be too hard?
3. The pathing would have some juking, i.e. one or two screens would have you advance by going through the same door you came from. How many times would that be tolerable?

Basic pathing on the level (entrance to Wand) is done. Next would be warping to wrong rooms, which will take a bit of time. Let me know your sentiments.

Doctor Shemp
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Re: Wandering Around Again (New Wand Subdungeon?)

Postby Doctor Shemp » 3 years ago

So long as the solution is never just guesswork and there's always a clue as to which door is the correct one, then I'd say any door can be the correct one.

I think that for a minindungeon that's just variations on the same puzzle 6x6 would definitely be too big. Even 5x5 is pushing it.

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Nabe
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Re: Wandering Around Again (New Wand Subdungeon?)

Postby Nabe » 3 years ago

1. Absolutely -- for now, make a dummy overworld to exit to, and just direct every exit side warp there.

2. If the rooms have to be cleared of enemies to progress, that would be pretty intolerable. And if they don't have to be cleared to progress, the player will skip the enemies. But if killing all of the enemies in a room triggers a secret hint for the correct path in that room, I think that would cut down on the player's annoyance. That way, you set up a situation where they either have to guess the correct path, or kill everything, and it becomes a matter of player skill/luck. Another way to cut down on player annoyance is to have a couple rooms without enemies and with a clear direction forward, perhaps one each after a particularly difficult series of rooms.

3.That seems fine to me, just use your own judgment on how much is too much.


Any chance of putting it in a forest tileset and calling it Really Lost Woods? :P

Doctor Shemp
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Re: Wandering Around Again (New Wand Subdungeon?)

Postby Doctor Shemp » 3 years ago

I don't think guessing the correct path is ever a good idea. I liked the original idea of having one different enemy point in the direction of the exit; it just didn't always work. Also, the Lost Woods don't make you guess unless you're trying to brute force it: you just look on the overworld for the guy who tells you the solution. Unless there's going to be a guy who tells you the solution to this place, which would require the dungeon be short enough that the clue can be remembered, I really recommend you give graphical clues as to the correct exit. You could use a different enemy like the original if you can get it to work, or you could use subtly differently coloured tiles, or something else entirely. Just please don't make it guesswork or killing a room full of enemies over and over as the first one is dull and frustrating and the second one is already being done as a dungeon gimmick.

thatguyif
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Re: Wandering Around Again (New Wand Subdungeon?)

Postby thatguyif » 3 years ago

To answer some points:
-Nabe, what you suggested might be a good middle ground. Sort of like how in Wind Waker, there was that one dungeon where the direction a sword fell was the right direction. I already have planned a sort of midpoint: Midway through the correct path, there's a room with a fairy in it, and there's only one way forward (which is the correct one). I wouldn't have started juking until after that room.
-Shemp, the original idea, while it could work, just seemed a bit too ambitious scripting wise. I just wonder if there's a way to make it subtle without harking back to the original game. The idea I currently have is that blocks keep getting added to corners of the room to show you're going in the right direction.
-Tileset: Maybe there's a forest dungeon tileset out there? :P

Doctor Shemp
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Re: Wandering Around Again (New Wand Subdungeon?)

Postby Doctor Shemp » 3 years ago

Yes, it's a good idea to show that you're going in the correct direction by adding extra blocks to the room, but my point is that it shouldn't be guesswork to find the correct direction in the first place. The unsubtle example that a hundred games have done is to have lit torches by the correct door. Something like that. Or you could make the correct door a slightly different colour to the others. Or something that's more than just "have a guess and hope you're right".

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Nabe
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Re: Wandering Around Again (New Wand Subdungeon?)

Postby Nabe » 3 years ago

http://www.purezc.net/index.php?page=tiles&id=346
16-color forest stuff if you like.

http://www.purezc.net/index.php?page=tiles&id=1324
Some large Classic trees.

http://www.purezc.net/index.php?page=tiles&id=1383
Classic dungeon tileset with layered treetops.

http://www.purezc.net/index.php?page=tiles&id=1392
Classic overworld expanded set.


If you do small clues, they should be varied each time, and it's important that it's possible for the player to get them wrong as well. That's tough. You might want to make use of the player's items for various secret triggers -- for example, if the player sees a Super Bomb rock in this maze, they'll assume there's a hint underneath, and it's unlikely they'll be upset at having to guess the direction for that single room if they don't have a Super Bomb.

You might also consider putting in a dark room that has an arrow on the floor when lit up, since it would be reasonable at this point to expect the player to have a candle item.

There's also the Lens of Truth, which could unambiguously show the correct path.

thatguyif
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Re: Wandering Around Again (New Wand Subdungeon?)

Postby thatguyif » 3 years ago

How powerful is the Wand? Like, at what dungeon would we put this in were this the main quest?

If it's at a level where you would get the Lens of Truth, then that could work. I could also make it so both scenarios play out: Killing all the monsters does an item drop that somewhat ambiguously points in the right direction, while using the Lens of Truth shows you exactly where to go. (That said, the last door would be a shutter, so you would have to fight some monsters at some point). It gives the player the option of getting a powerful weapon early on, though they would have to be really skilled and have some endurance.

Doctor Shemp
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Re: Wandering Around Again (New Wand Subdungeon?)

Postby Doctor Shemp » 3 years ago

I think the best solution would be to have an environmental clue in each room showing the correct exit, and to have killing every enemy and using the Lens of Truth both be ways to unambiguously show the exit. You shouldn't have to kill every enemy or have to own the Lens of Truth in order to not fall back on guesswork. There's quite a few environmental clues you could use.
  • Bomb a rock for a hint
  • Super bomb a rock for a hint (are we actually giving out super bombs somewhere?)
  • Shoot a target with an arrow for a hint
  • Hookshot a target for a hint
  • Light up a dark room for a hint
  • Solve a push block puzzle for a hint
  • Play the whistle for a hint
  • Have the correct exit told to you at the start of the room but then have to navigate a moving floor maze to the correct exit
  • Spot the door with the slightly differently coloured tiles near it
There's probably others too.

thatguyif
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Re: Wandering Around Again (New Wand Subdungeon?)

Postby thatguyif » 3 years ago

I dunno. That just takes away from the challenge. We should make it at least somewhat difficult. Perhaps having an old man room near the start that hints at what you would need to do to find the right door would allow players to be all "okay, I'll come back when I feel ready" and not just spend time wandering around in frustration. And some rooms will link to that room in the midst of the maze.

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Re: Wandering Around Again (New Wand Subdungeon?)

Postby Doctor Shemp » 3 years ago

I know it's a word that often gets thrown around, but if you are genuinely basing your difficulty on just trial-and-error, that's just fake difficulty. And again, if you're basing your difficulty on having to kill everyone in the room, it's already been done in this game.

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Nabe
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Re: Wandering Around Again (New Wand Subdungeon?)

Postby Nabe » 3 years ago

Just go ahead and make whatever you've got in mind, IMO. I'm eager to see it.

thatguyif
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Re: Wandering Around Again (New Wand Subdungeon?)

Postby thatguyif » 3 years ago

Sounds good, Nabe. I got a small backlog of other things to work on, but hopefully I can continue this weekend.

(now, if you'll allow me, I'm gonna do a bit small verbal sparring here)

Shemp, I don't get your thinking in any of this. Fake difficulty is only applicable if the game offers no hints at all. The old man room would alleviate the issue by saying through riddle that you either need to kill the monsters or use the Lens, and as I said, if the player gets lost, there's a good chance he'll land in that room anyway. And I feel like there should be enough difficulty where a Level 1 schmuck wouldn't be able to get to the end, which is what your additional hints are suggesting. What is wrong with having to come back to something later? This isn't Mario. You can leave the dungeon and come back to it if it's too hard initially.

As per your other point: Of course, it's a standard Zelda practice. Nothing wrong with that. This is my first level design, and I'm not going to create something over-the-top ambitious here. Overambition is what halted this dungeon's design in the first place.

Doctor Shemp
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Re: Wandering Around Again (New Wand Subdungeon?)

Postby Doctor Shemp » 3 years ago

To be completely clear on this, are you saying that the player needs to kill all enemies or use the lens to see a clue, with no way to be explicitly told the answer, or that a clue will always be visible and that the player will need to kill all enemies or use the lens to be explicitly told the answer?

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Nimono
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Re: Wandering Around Again (New Wand Subdungeon?)

Postby Nimono » 3 years ago

thatguyif wrote:Shemp, I don't get your thinking in any of this. Fake difficulty is only applicable if the game offers no hints at all. The old man room would alleviate the issue by saying through riddle that you either need to kill the monsters or use the Lens, and as I said, if the player gets lost, there's a good chance he'll land in that room anyway. And I feel like there should be enough difficulty where a Level 1 schmuck wouldn't be able to get to the end, which is what your additional hints are suggesting. What is wrong with having to come back to something later? This isn't Mario. You can leave the dungeon and come back to it if it's too hard initially.
If it's hard to solve the riddle, though, it's no help whatsoever and loops back into requiring a guide. It'd be much better if the solution was tough to figure out from the room itself, but obvious if you stepped back and took a look at the whole thing for a bit.

thatguyif
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Re: Wandering Around Again (New Wand Subdungeon?)

Postby thatguyif » 2 years ago

Doctor Shemp wrote:To be completely clear on this, are you saying that the player needs to kill all enemies or use the lens to see a clue, with no way to be explicitly told the answer, or that a clue will always be visible and that the player will need to kill all enemies or use the lens to be explicitly told the answer?
Basically, if they kill all enemies, an item drop will appear in the vicinity/direction of the correct door (clue). If they use the lens, markers will appear pointing to the door (explicit). It would be a challenge for those who try to get through without the lens, a (mostly) easy trip for those with it. That's basically what I was getting at. My apologies if it sounded like I wasn't clear there.

Sorry, I disappeared for a while. Life happened. Routing is done, as is enemy plans for the rooms on the route. I added an Old Man room that appears on the left after the entrance, and which some rooms will warp, to indicate what you need to do. Basically, if you stray too far off, it either lead to this room, a bonus item room (which will then either warp back to the entrance or the midpoint), or (in 2 instances) leaving the dungeon. I will route it so that if you stray off the path more than one screen away, it will trigger these circumstances. Enemy counts will be minor off-route, so that way it's not as frustrating. Will probably disable enemy return. Should have this done by the end of the week.

Question: Is it possible to trigger a Side Warp Out with item pickup?

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Nabe
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Re: Wandering Around Again (New Wand Subdungeon?)

Postby Nabe » 2 years ago

thatguyif wrote:Question: Is it possible to trigger a Side Warp Out with item pickup?
To do that you need to make an item that's a "Triforce piece" that doesn't count toward the main dungeon pieces (by having your DMap's Level number be 0). If you're referring to the Wand at the end of the dungeon, then the fake Wand also has to add the actual Wand to the inventory on pickup (which might require a script). But if that's what you mean, then don't worry about doing it, because it'll have to be redone when I insert the mini-dungeons into the main quest anyway, and it's simple for me to do.

thatguyif
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Re: Wandering Around Again (New Wand Subdungeon?)

Postby thatguyif » 2 years ago

Yeah, that's what I had in mind (wand would lead to side warp out). Thanks, Nabe.

Room layouts done. Basic routing for these rooms has begun, though that'll take longer. I've thrown in a room that basically tells you the correct route. I'm hoping to have it done this weekend, and then I'll upload for playtesting.

I forget though: Do I need to create custom tiles for fake walls that do side warp?

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Nabe
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Re: Wandering Around Again (New Wand Subdungeon?)

Postby Nabe » 2 years ago

thatguyif wrote:Yeah, that's what I had in mind (wand would lead to side warp out). Thanks, Nabe.

Room layouts done. Basic routing for these rooms has begun, though that'll take longer. I've thrown in a room that basically tells you the correct route. I'm hoping to have it done this weekend, and then I'll upload for playtesting.

I forget though: Do I need to create custom tiles for fake walls that do side warp?
Fake walls, as in you can walk through them?

If you're doing a standard NES-style dungeon (meaning that the doors aren't located anywhere but the middle of the screen edge, like in Z1), you can use the Doors window (F6) in the Screen pulldown menu to set up a "door" as Walk-through. The arrow you'll see is just an editing indicator and won't be visible in-game -- it'll look like a normal wall to the player.

If you're using a custom tileset, or placing doors in other places than middle of screen's edge, you should make custom combos with the same tile as your walls, using Type: Overhead, and make sure that the combos aren't solid. The W key in the editor is a toggle to see what's solid and what isn't.

If your combos won't be located on the edge of the screen, you'll have to use a Tile Warp instead of a Side Warp, or make sure to route an invisible walkable path that extends all the way to the side of the Screen.

thatguyif
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Re: Wandering Around Again (New Wand Subdungeon?)

Postby thatguyif » 2 years ago

Nabe wrote: Fake walls, as in you can walk through them?

If you're doing a standard NES-style dungeon (meaning that the doors aren't located anywhere but the middle of the screen edge, like in Z1), you can use the Doors window (F6) in the Screen pulldown menu to set up a "door" as Walk-through. The arrow you'll see is just an editing indicator and won't be visible in-game -- it'll look like a normal wall to the player.
That I knew, I'm just wondering if:
A. We can do Side Warp rather than standard door warp to the next room when they're fake walls.
B. (This I didn't mention earlier) We can use different tiles than the standard wall. I was thinking of using "locked" doors (these would lead to one of two bonus rooms)

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Nimono
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Re: Wandering Around Again (New Wand Subdungeon?)

Postby Nimono » 2 years ago

thatguyif wrote: That I knew, I'm just wondering if:
A. We can do Side Warp rather than standard door warp to the next room when they're fake walls.
B. (This I didn't mention earlier) We can use different tiles than the standard wall. I was thinking of using "locked" doors (these would lead to one of two bonus rooms)
First off, you could easily test them yourself, y'know. ;) (Though, I completely understand not being willing to do so; I'm like that, myself.) Second, I can go ahead and answer B for you: Yes, yes you can. I've done it before!

EDIT: Just tested A for you. Side warps do work with Walk-Through walls. All that matters with side warps are that you've gone to another room by reaching the edge, which you do with a walk-through wall door.

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Nabe
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Re: Wandering Around Again (New Wand Subdungeon?)

Postby Nabe » 2 years ago

In the second one, are you talking about "walls" that will open with a key? (If not, ignore this.)

For "walls" that are actually locked, create one combo for a locked wall. Use a tile that fits in with your wall tiles, and make the combo of Type: Lock Block (or the Copycat version of Lock Block if you'll be placing this combo on the middle of north or south walls). Then, you have to make the next combo in the list after the Lock Block into whatever you want the "wall" to appear as when it's unlocked -- it'll change to that combo automatically. Lastly, depending on the width of the wall behind your locked wall combos, you may need to add additional combos that look like walls but aren't solid -- if so: make them of Type: Overhead so that they're drawn above other objects. After the player passes through your lock and touches the edge of the screen, they'll trigger the matching side warp, or the normal screen transfer if no other side warp is specified.

thatguyif
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Re: Wandering Around Again (New Wand Subdungeon?)

Postby thatguyif » 2 years ago

Riolu180 wrote: First off, you could easily test them yourself, y'know. ;) (Though, I completely understand not being willing to do so; I'm like that, myself.) Second, I can go ahead and answer B for you: Yes, yes you can. I've done it before!

EDIT: Just tested A for you. Side warps do work with Walk-Through walls. All that matters with side warps are that you've gone to another room by reaching the edge, which you do with a walk-through wall door.
I know, I know :P But thank you for the help! I appreciate it ;)

thatguyif
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Re: Wandering Around Again (New Wand Subdungeon?)

Postby thatguyif » 2 years ago

So, I'm just about finished with what I consider a rough draft. However, in attempting to test the damn thing, I ran into a problem: The previous creator of this map implemented something (a script, maybe?) that disabled the sword. Other items functioned in the test, but not the sword. Not sure what exactly to do here. I can post up what's completed in Dropbox, if that helps.

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Lejes
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Re: Wandering Around Again (New Wand Subdungeon?)

Postby Lejes » 2 years ago

Did you wander into a red bubble? Those take away your sword permanently until you touch a blue bubble. If it actually is a script, that should also be an easy fix.


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