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SPOILER ALERT: AZCT Plot

... zelda
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Leet
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Re: SPOILER ALERT: AZCT Plot

Postby Leet » 3 years ago

Doctor Shemp wrote:If we make Sheath exist outside the fourth wall in the game, none of the game works. She becomes the most overpowered protagonist of all time. For example, if she's losing to a boss, why not just have her open the editor and delete it? A story has to work on its own internal logic, and if the internal logic is that she can interact with the function of the game itself, then it breaks the internal logic for her not to exploit that at every opportunity.

If you need a fudged justification for why she doesn't break the fourth wall in this game, isn't it normal to sometimes not act like yourself in dreams? It is for me anyway. Or at least to feel locked into a set narrative progression.
Well it's not as though Sheath solves every problem in-comic either by messing with such things. In the fight against Leap in the monastery arc, to use only one singular example, Sheath and Brake using pedal power to control a mech to fight her was just a thing they did. You're thinking at high extremes (she must either always do this or never do this) for no reason. Like I know she could technically do the same thing every time, but you can say this about... most fictional works, up to and including ATXS. Pretty much every single fight-based comic thing that isn't super serious sacrifices realistic attack repetition for fun attack variation instead. You don't need to explain away anything and everyone will be fine with it.

And yes, dreams do tend to work like that. Hence why awareness of a dream allows one to enter lucidity and break from the path set before them, which, ironically, somewhat parallels breaking the fourth wall in fiction, doesn't it?
ImageWell it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
Blood Ghoul wrote:Sometimes it seems my blood spurts out in gobs, as if it were a fountain's pulsing sobs. I clearly hear it mutter as it goes yet cannot find the wound from which it flows. Before I met you, baby, I didn't know what I was missing.

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Re: SPOILER ALERT: AZCT Plot

Postby Doctor Shemp » 3 years ago

Ok, those are some good points. How about this as a compromise: Sheath's aware that she's in a narrative, but not a game specifically. Would that be true enough to the character without being too blatant about it?

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Re: SPOILER ALERT: AZCT Plot

Postby Nimono » 3 years ago

Doctor Shemp wrote:Ok, those are some good points. How about this as a compromise: Sheath's aware that she's in a narrative, but not a game specifically. Would that be true enough to the character without being too blatant about it?
If I'm understanding raocow correctly, that's exactly what Sheath is- aware of the narrative and certain parts of the medium, but not that she's in a game/comic/whatever; that to her, those are actually in-universe. Am I understanding this correctly?

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Re: SPOILER ALERT: AZCT Plot

Postby Leet » 3 years ago

I think what he meant was that she knows about the medium but not that there's anything outside. Like, she would know about stuff related to being in a game, like levels and bosses (and obviously anything to do with narratives such as main characters and plot flow) but not that anybody was playing the game or made the game or stuff like that.

For gameplay's sake, I would just have the fourth wall breakage mentioned in dialogue but not in the gameplay since, well, it's Zelda. A character in Zelda 1 can't curl up into a ball or crawl around or attempt to scale walls like a person in real life in the Zelda 1 setting could - so it's not like any reasons need to be provided as to why Sheath can't just open the editor. She's constrained within the gameplay not because she canonically would be, but instead for the sake of the devs not spending a load of time giving a thousand different options for players. So it's not unrealistic at all to have this in full force without impacting gameplay.
ImageWell it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
Blood Ghoul wrote:Sometimes it seems my blood spurts out in gobs, as if it were a fountain's pulsing sobs. I clearly hear it mutter as it goes yet cannot find the wound from which it flows. Before I met you, baby, I didn't know what I was missing.

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Re: SPOILER ALERT: AZCT Plot

Postby Nabe » 3 years ago




1:05 - Sheath in the comic is always talking about the cabin in the bayou that consumes her thoughts, but every time she immediately gets distracted from it by the real plot going on around her. I'd imagine she was also thinking about this when she hit her head. Forgetting about that personal destination of hers could be another sign that she's losing herself.

Oddly, some parts of Overworld 2 ended up looking a lot like Sheath's imaginings of that twilight bayou. In a way, it makes sense that she would dream about a world that looks like that.

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Re: SPOILER ALERT: AZCT Plot

Postby Doctor Shemp » 3 years ago

I screwed up. In the Burgomaster's speech, "We sent thou to defeat The Destroyer" should be "We sent thee to defeat The Destroyer". Entwine is a good replacement for combine, by the way.

I like the replacements you did for the sword/shield text, but I think that "To northwest far a curious shop lies" would fit the stress pattern better than "To northwest far lies a curious shop". Similarly I think "One may a shield of old find there" would fit better than "One may find there a shield there of olde". And since the text doesn't use the old "-e" ending for any other noun, it probably shouldn't be there for old.

"Four exist, then four again, is said o'it" is the reverse of what the stress pattern should be, going strong-weak rather than weak-strong. Also what's it referring to? The shop? From four and four I'm guessing the Creator shards, but their reference was too long ago in the conversation to use "it". It's a bit of a non sequitur to place it at that point in the conversation. If it is to be put somewhere, a better phrasing to make things clearer and fit the meter better would be "The shards do number four and four again".

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Re: SPOILER ALERT: AZCT Plot

Postby Nabe » 3 years ago

Four and four again is referring to the Corner Stores. I'd like to hide one on each of the other seven corners of the overworlds, probably just selling one item each. I could find a better place for that info, though.

I forget which, but I think there was one line of the burgomaster's speech that had 12 syllables and another with 9, was that intentional? I know people sometimes vary the formula quite a lot, so I figured I'd make sure.

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Re: SPOILER ALERT: AZCT Plot

Postby Doctor Shemp » 3 years ago

No, I screwed up. These could be the changes:
Who thou met on the beach, is concerned. -> "Who thou met on the beach, concerned he is."

"Creates a dream. Discard the faces in thy mind" -> "Creates a dream. Discard thy mind's eye's friends" or, if that's too poetic, "Creates a dream. Discard thy mind's faces" although I'd lean towards the first option as referencing Demo and the others more explicitly.

I think the only variation I intentionally used, rather than me just screwing up, was inverting the first foot in "Born of the pyre of their bodies corp’real,".

If that's the context for the four and four line, then maybe "The stores do number four and four again". Would that work? It's less poetic than your line but it's clearer.
Last edited by Doctor Shemp on 23 Nov 2014, 22:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Nabe
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Re: SPOILER ALERT: AZCT Plot

Postby Nabe » 3 years ago

Storyboarded a simple intro cutscene. The dialogue isn't final, just an outline for the attitude of the visuals.
Image
Working on Level 5 rewrites as well.

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Re: SPOILER ALERT: AZCT Plot

Postby Nabe » 2 years ago

Level 5 and 7 string rewrites are done.

I wrote some text for when Sheath gets to Overworld Island 2. This would be on the very first screen, after whatever trials she needs to face to get there. It's split up into textboxes.
This newest place is very... uhh... not grace-
Ful. Shoot! I'm terrible at this.
"A poet, I am not." Ooh, that's not bad!

But still, a girl of such an age as I
Cannot be held accountable by rhymes!
... Yet, pray, what age am I again? Forsooth!

It should come back to me in time. Fear not,
Yo! Venture forth into this brave unknown!
Although, a feeling tickles at my brain.

Does not this marsh resemble something from
My memory? This reddish water's hue...
Important... Like some dream, it slips away.

Oh well! "If thought eludes, it cannot be
Too worth its thinking." Damn, I sound so smart!
Adventure waits for no girl. Here comes Sheath!
So yeah. This little scene shows she's forgetting herself and slipping into verse. In true Sheath style she knows it's happening, but she's having fun with it rather than noticing the implications.


What's left to be written:
- A scene prior to this one, where Sheath talks to a guy on Island 1 about how to get to Island 2
- The scene where Sheath talks to the Maintainer
- The scene where Sheath talks to the Destroyer
- The scene when Sheath remembers who she is
- The scene where Sheath talks to the Creator and makes her choice
- A handful of NPCs to sprinkle around the first village that detail some basic stuff
- NPCs in the second village giving cryptic hints
ALSO
Strings that need rewrites into verse:

- Some Island 1 shops
- Tar Pits shop
- Shrine of the Destroyer NPC
- Island 2 shops

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Re: SPOILER ALERT: AZCT Plot

Postby Nimono » 2 years ago

Heh, I like how silly she sounds in the first part. :D Keep up the good work, Nabe!

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Re: SPOILER ALERT: AZCT Plot

Postby jayScribble » 2 years ago

I would imagine that for the conversation for how to get from Island 1 to Island 2, it would go with that the guy jokes about that you build a raft to get there, but then seriously states that a ship would be best idea and the complexities of how to operate one, as well as the weather being not optimal to set sail, but she ignores it and states that she'll just build a raft to get there, with it ending with the guy saying "Whatever floats your boat".

The other conversations I would think later.
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Re: SPOILER ALERT: AZCT Plot

Postby Nabe » 2 years ago

jayScribble wrote:I would imagine that for the conversation for how to get from Island 1 to Island 2, it would go with that the guy jokes about that you build a raft to get there, but then seriously states that a ship would be best idea and the complexities of how to operate one, as well as the weather being not optimal to set sail, but she ignores it and states that she'll just build a raft to get there, with it ending with the guy saying "Whatever floats your boat".

The other conversations I would think later.
Sheath in italics.
Hello, madame, and welcome to the sea!
The ferry service to Shade Isle arrives
Within the hour... is what I'd norm'ly say.

Alas, well-scuttled has my ferry been,
By raging waves. Destroyer's jape, says I,
For no one dares to visit such a place.

The refugees, they speak of creatures dark.
Of broken land, like shattered glass. Hard things
That rattle this old seadog. O, Maintain!

Oh no! Sad dogs are so sad.
Can I pet him? Is he around?
My bro taught me! The trick

with dogs is to pet them real hard
until they forget that you ate
pizza and didn't give them any.

Oh, but wait! I heard there was a ferry
here so I can get to the other island!
Do you know when that comes, dude?


If ye would cross from this isle to the next,
Ye best start lookin': three logs make a raft!
Yar har har ha hee! O, Creator, bless!

All jokes aside, ye'll need a vessel true
To get ye through these waters. Timber hard
Will start ye off, and then a sturdy sail,
[text scrolls automatically at this point]
And varnish will ye need, "five coats to float"
Be me gran'dad's key phrase, but equally
Important be provisions for the trek.
Ye'll need two weeks firm cheese, an' carrots dipped
In salted oil, and plenty o' ripe fruit,
'Cause scurvy be your top concern! Also...

"Three logs make a raft, yar har har ha hee..."
Thanks so much, mister! I'll find three logs
and start my journey on the high seas!

...Everybody here is a cool artsy poet!
Mayhaps when I'm a woman of eighteen,
I'll be an artist like these writer dudes.



When Sheath returns with a raft:
A raft ye really did construct?! Avast!
"Whatever floats your boat" in purest form...

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Re: SPOILER ALERT: AZCT Plot

Postby Doctor Shemp » 2 years ago

Nabe wrote:
jayScribble wrote:I would imagine that for the conversation for how to get from Island 1 to Island 2, it would go with that the guy jokes about that you build a raft to get there, but then seriously states that a ship would be best idea and the complexities of how to operate one, as well as the weather being not optimal to set sail, but she ignores it and states that she'll just build a raft to get there, with it ending with the guy saying "Whatever floats your boat".

The other conversations I would think later.
Sheath in italics.
Hello, madame, and welcome to the sea!
The ferry service to Shade Isle arrives
Within the hour... is what I'd norm'ly say.

Alas, well-scuttled has my ferry been,
By raging waves. Destroyer's jape, says I,
For no one dares to visit such a place.

The refugees, they speak of creatures dark.
Of broken land, like shattered glass. Hard things
That rattle this old seadog. O, Maintain!

Oh no! Sad dogs are so sad.
Can I pet him? Is he around?
My bro taught me! The trick

with dogs is to pet them real hard
until they forget that you ate
pizza and didn't give them any.

Oh, but wait! I heard there was a ferry
here so I can get to the other island!
Do you know when that comes, dude?


If ye would cross from this isle to the next,
Ye best start lookin': three logs make a raft!
Yar har har ha hee! O, Creator, bless!

All jokes aside, ye'll need a vessel true
To get ye through these waters. Timber hard
Will start ye off, and then a sturdy sail,
[text scrolls automatically at this point]
And varnish will ye need, "five coats to float"
Be me gran'dad's key phrase, but equally
Important be provisions for the trek.
Ye'll need two weeks firm cheese, an' carrots dipped
In salted oil, and plenty o' ripe fruit,
'Cause scurvy be your top concern! Also...

"Three logs make a raft, yar har har ha hee..."
Thanks so much, mister! I'll find three logs
and start my journey on the high seas!

...Everybody here is a cool artsy poet!
Mayhaps when I'm a woman of eighteen,
I'll be an artist like these writer dudes.



When Sheath returns with a raft:
A raft ye really did construct?! Avast!
"Whatever floats your boat" in purest form...
I like this a lot but I have reservations about the word "ye". While it is an archaic form of the word "you", it's the formal you as opposed to the informal thou. I know Hollywood has done its best to switch the public perception of which one is which though. My main concern is that it can also mean "you" in a plural case: hence "hear ye" directed to a whole town. I think this is also the more common meaning, especially considering some English dialects still have "ye" in the plural sense. To any player speaking one of those dialects, and to anyone who knows one of those dialects, the raft guy will seem to be talking to a group of people for some reason. It's mainly a regional UK thing but I think it would reduce confusion all around if we stuck to thou.

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Re: SPOILER ALERT: AZCT Plot

Postby Nabe » 2 years ago

Doctor Shemp wrote:I like this a lot but I have reservations about the word "ye". While it is an archaic form of the word "you", it's the formal you as opposed to the informal thou. I know Hollywood has done its best to switch the public perception of which one is which though. My main concern is that it can also mean "you" in a plural case: hence "hear ye" directed to a whole town. I think this is also the more common meaning, especially considering some English dialects still have "ye" in the plural sense. To any player speaking one of those dialects, and to anyone who knows one of those dialects, the raft guy will seem to be talking to a group of people for some reason. It's mainly a regional UK thing but I think it would reduce confusion all around if we stuck to thou.
The tweak that came out as I was writing was that he talks like a pirate or sailor type. So convention dictates that he revel in single-syllable rhymes, i.e. 'yo-ho, yar-har, ye be me first matey'. That's all the thought I'd given to 'ye'. That said, I can't say I've ever heard it used by a modern-day speaker in any day-to-day context, and I'm sure I've never heard convention's fictional pirate say 'thou'. :D There are three textboxes of the NPC talking about his relation to the sea, and from a visual standpoint, this NPC will probably also have some conventional visual indication that he is of the sea (stripes, bandanas, a pegleg, an eyepatch). I don't see this confusing anyone.

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Re: SPOILER ALERT: AZCT Plot

Postby morsel/morceau » 2 years ago

'Thou' would be archaic even for a pirate, but 'ye' is nonsensical Hollywood pirate talk. The correct form is simply 'you'. Stevenson's source for Treasure Island, A General History of the Pyrates by Daniel Defoe, uses 'ye' only in the plural form (exemplified in the phrase 'ye all of you'). Stevenson almost entirely avoids the word (Long John does say 'Thank ye kindly, doctor' at one point, but I like to think he's just ripping the hole). No one should have to read the ear-straining attempt at rendering dialect implied in 'ye'; the accoutrements you mention (stripes, bandanas, a pegleg, an eyepatch) and the appearence of healthy, unobjectionable words like 'scurvy' should be enough to represent his status as a freebooter.
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Re: SPOILER ALERT: AZCT Plot

Postby Nabe » 2 years ago

morsel/morceau wrote:'Thou' would be archaic even for a pirate, but 'ye' is nonsensical Hollywood pirate talk.
The bolded is definitely what I was going for, in the vein of dramatized sailors in fiction. I don't think you can endorse eyepatches and funny hats, but quibble over dialogue that's associated with the convention in the public eye. None of it is accurate.

If not 'ye', I'd use 'ya', and then 'you'. But I'm not satisfied that it matters for this single one-time NPC. I just want a guy who sounds like a silly sailor (even if he himself doesn't seem to understand the grammar).

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Re: SPOILER ALERT: AZCT Plot

Postby Doctor Shemp » 2 years ago

It'd be fine in isolation but in context by the time the player reaches the guy they've been hearing archaic words in their proper use for about half a game. The context is going to be there. Luckily I've remembered that yeh exists as phonetically written slang for you in the same way that yer exists for your. Besides, I think yeh is what they use in Pirates of the Caribbean which is the go-to now for pirate imagery isn't it?

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Re: SPOILER ALERT: AZCT Plot

Postby Nabe » 2 years ago

Doctor Shemp wrote:It'd be fine in isolation but in context by the time the player reaches the guy they've been hearing archaic words in their proper use for about half a game. The context is going to be there. Luckily I've remembered that yeh exists as phonetically written slang for you in the same way that yer exists for your. Besides, I think yeh is what they use in Pirates of the Caribbean which is the go-to now for pirate imagery isn't it?
In context, Sheath and some guy are alone on a screen, which leaves no doubt about who he's referring to with his improperly-used ye. It's also in isolation (right now), because ye isn't used elsewhere by other characters.

I don't think archetypal sailors, fictional or not, care about using words within their prescribed grammar, nor would they probably do so. And I think fictional sailors revel in the rhymes I'm talking about, which hinge on ye/be/me/we/he/yo/ho/yar/har. Such rhymes help the dialogue to sound wacky/dumb and hit the right beats.

And I hesitate to believe that the usage of ye here could be at all confusing in regards to singular/plural, in much the same way that no French speaker would ever say, "Est-ce que voulez-vous dire vous, ou vous?" and no Japanese speaker has ever been confused about (contextually obvious) singular/plural usage of any noun. And yes, these are examples of dual plurality within the actual intended language, but cartoon sailors have been saying ye forever, and participants in Talk Like a Pirate Day throw ye's all over the place.

I don't mind adding an H in a couple spots. I mean, I wrote that dialogue on a lunch break. I just really don't think it's necessary, or practical, and in fact I think it removes a chunk of fun from dialogue that only exists to be fun.

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Re: SPOILER ALERT: AZCT Plot

Postby Doctor Shemp » 2 years ago

I don't think the vous comparison is a fair one. We're talking about a word that changed meanings, then went extinct except in parts of Britain where time flows bizarrely in linguistics and throws up weird shit like never saying the, and then Hollywood reapropriated to mean its original meaning again.

If you really think adding the h will kill it though, or make him sound less like a pirate and more like Hagrid, then don't. Would a good compromise be a line by plot advancement guy about the pirate not speaking properly - which I think would be funny delivered iambically - or would that be excessive? I think plot advancement guy is due a reappearance at the start of Island 2 to keep the plot on track.

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Re: SPOILER ALERT: AZCT Plot

Postby Nimono » 2 years ago

Personally, I'm going to have to vote for consistency unless we're super willing to lampshade the fact that he doesn't speak correctly like everyone else. If we're going to lampshade it, maybe it'd be better for Sheath to do that, she seems like that kind of person.

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Re: SPOILER ALERT: AZCT Plot

Postby Doctor Shemp » 2 years ago

Nimono wrote:If we're going to lampshade it, maybe it'd be better for Sheath to do that, she seems like that kind of person.
True, but at her stage in the plot they're all speaking strangely aren't they? So's she but she still knows it's strange. Also, if we were to have plot advancement guy lampshade it, that carries the implication that he knows what's going on even when he's not there, which would play into his reveal as the Destroyer.

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Re: SPOILER ALERT: AZCT Plot

Postby Nimono » 2 years ago

Doctor Shemp wrote: True, but at her stage in the plot they're all speaking strangely aren't they? So's she but she still knows it's strange. Also, if we were to have plot advancement guy lampshade it, that carries the implication that he knows what's going on even when he's not there, which would play into his reveal as the Destroyer.
That's a very good point, that DOES make more sense than what I suggested! I think that'd be a good way to go, then. Turn something minor into foreshadowing... Sounds like a good plan to me!

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Re: SPOILER ALERT: AZCT Plot

Postby Nabe » 2 years ago

The idea behind plot advancement guy (henceforth known as PAG) is that he uses the old man sprite variant that has the inconspicuous differences from the normal sprite, right? Or am I misremembering? Anyway, that's something we should talk about in more detail now, since the means are all in place to use custom Guys and sprites.


Bringing this list forward again with (where I suspect there are) added PAG interactions:
What's left to be written:
- Sheath talks to PAG about the specifics of finding three logs
- PAG in the second village giving cryptic hints
- PAG in front of the Tower?
- The scene where Sheath talks to the Maintainer
- The scene where Sheath talks to the Destroyer
- The scene when Sheath remembers who she is
- The scene where Sheath talks to the Creator and makes her choice
- A handful of NPCs to sprinkle around the first village that detail some basic stuff
- NPCs in the second village giving cryptic hints
ALSO
Strings that need rewrites:

- Some Island 1 shops
- Tar Pits shop
- Shrine of the Destroyer NPC
- Island 2 shops

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Re: SPOILER ALERT: AZCT Plot

Postby Doctor Shemp » 2 years ago

Here's what I have for Plot Advancement Guy's Island 2 starting speech:
Arrived thou hast! I feared that thou wert lost.
The man who bidst thou sail did useth words
That in mine ears did sound so strange, so feared
Them false I did – but thou art here. The sun
Moveth to hide and light doth dim. Thou must
Illuminate the world. A lantern in
The darkness thou must be. Complete thy quest
And bring the light of dawn! Go save the world!
There are several things I tried to accomplish with this speech. In order they are (and remember that he's the Destroyer in disguise):
1. Really emphasise the early modern grammar to strengthen the joke of him calling the pirate's words strange.
2. Try and imply that the player shouldn't trust him by having him say that he thought the pirate's words false because they sounded strange. Ideally the player should think that he sounds strange too.
3. I figured that since Island 2 was called Shade Isle, it could follow that Island 1 would be daytime and Island 2 would be near-night. Since the player can move freely between them, that would imply two unchanging timezones: in other words, that the sun has stopped moving, and that Sheath just travelled far enough in her raft to cross multiple timezones. This is probably too subtle to pick up on though.
4. The point in 3 lets me use a nice darkness metaphor.
5. If you pick up on 3 then it follows that "bringing the light of dawn" would mean restarting time: killing the Maintainer.
6. "Go save the world!" is a nod towards the Destroyer actually believing that he's acting in the world's best interests.


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