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AZCT: Level 5, Old <townname> (Bracelet Dungeon v2)

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CodeGorilla
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AZCT: Level 5, Old <townname> (Bracelet Dungeon v2)

Postby CodeGorilla » 4 years ago

(Makin' my own thread so people can easily reference my progress, and posting it now because insomnia.)

Level 5: Old <townname>

So the base idea here is borrowed slightly from Terry Pratchett's Discworld series (though it wouldn't surprise me if it's been used other places, too). The idea is that the town in this game has been built up so much that the old parts of the town have been literally buried underneath the new parts. This dungeon would be the old town. The dungeon entrance would be hidden in an empty house in the town (possibly in such a way that you have to have the Amulet to find it, if we're trying to force linearity). The Triforce piece (or equivalent) would actually be visible from the outside from the moment you first walked into town - a house with a boarded up door/no door and a window that reveals the plot coupon inside. The only way to get inside is from underneath - i.e. the dungeon.

As for the dungeon itself: possibly the most important thing is that I will be using the Game Boy version of the item, where you can pick up and throw things, in addition to pushing heavier things. Anyone who wants to take advantage of this fact may do so. The puzzles in this dungeon will involve block pushing puzzles, rock throwing puzzles, and the like. The basic layout I have in mind is as follows:

Code: Select all

B1
 01234567
0  ...
1 ....
2 ....
3 .... X
4 .... B
5 ......
6 .....
7  .^.

B2
 01234567
0
1
2
3
4 ....
5 .....
6 .....
7  ...
X is the stairs up to the plot coupon, B is the boss, and ^ is the entrance (though I might change where the entrance is; if I'm using stairs, I can make it be wherever I want on B1). B1 is supposed to look like a hand, or glove. B2 is supposed to be the same hand, balled into a fist.

I also want to try and make a custom boss; my thought is a play on all those SMW custom bosses that are essentially "pick up the thing and throw it at the boss, oh man". The boss could spawn pick-up-able enemies (Goopas? Dunno yet, input appreciated) that you'd have to grab and throw at it in order to defeat the boss.

Resources:

(This section will be updated with a more exact list as time progresses.)

Obviously, this is going to need two DMaps, one for each floor. Making the Power Glove do what I want it to do will also require four custom item slots, as well as graphics for the main character pulling, catching, and holding. There's also going to be some number of combos reserved for pick-up-able items, and a custom flag as well. If we want stuff to be under stuff that gets picked up, we need to use a custom enemy slot, as well as another for the boss and another for pick-up-able mooks.

I'd like to have custom graphics to work with here, though a palette swap with whatever we use for the standard town would probably work just fine.

Edit 05/28/13: I've been sketching out some layout ideas. It's still incomplete, though.
Image
Image
The hint would be a text box/journal that reads:
"Pointer knows the goal.
Middle shows the way.
Ring hides the key.
Pinky grants the power."
These would be hints as to the location of the map, compass, bracelet, and boss key.

Edit 05/29/13: Basic layout is complete.
Image
Image
... man, those pictures did not turn out. I'll see what I can do about getting it scanned.

Edit 05/31/13: After some wrestling with the graphics importer on ZC, I'm finally making some headway. Proof of concept for a sewer screen:
Toned down the brightness on the water a bit.
Image
Edit: 12/01/13: Changed the thread title to reflect the changed position of the dungeon.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So yeah. That's my idea. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated! In particular, I'm a little worried that the concept might be too similar to Moosh/Nabe's dungeon, Shoe's Zone. Which is doubly unfortunate, because that's the very next dungeon in the sequence. Hopefully it won't conflict too much, with that one being more workshop-turned-extradimensional-void and this one being more buried city.
Last edited by CodeGorilla on 01 Dec 2013, 09:58, edited 6 times in total.

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Nabe
Still working on AZCT
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Re: AZCT: Level 6, Old <townname> (Bracelet Dungeon v2)

Postby Nabe » 4 years ago

Heya! We don't think this will be an issue -- town would be a good place for our dungeon, but we could just as easily put it in a cabin or somewhere elsewhere in the overworld. We'll sort it out later. And I don't see any other conflicts.

Speaking about the idea itself, I think you've got a winner. I like the concept, I like the graphics idea. Make sure to add a small sewer section for swimming, haha.

If the town becomes Talkhaus-related eventually (Talktoun?) then this would be a good opportunity to reference old jokes and old forum content.
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CodeGorilla
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Re: AZCT: Level 6, Old <townname> (Bracelet Dungeon v2)

Postby CodeGorilla » 4 years ago

Cool! I'm glad you like it. Sewers are a good idea, though no for swimming - the flippers aren't available until after this dungeon. I'd be down for the Talktoun references, but I'd need help; while I've been watching Mr. The Cow for a while, I only just recently joined the Talkhaus. It's a neat idea, though, if we're going to be in-jokey!

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cheez8
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Re: AZCT: Level 6, Old <townname> (Bracelet Dungeon v2)

Postby cheez8 » 4 years ago

This seems like a really neat idea for a dungeon environment, and I can't wait to see what you'll make of it! (Same goes for a lot of the themed dungeons that people have started making, really, but something about the old town just strikes me as an even cooler concept.)

Guess we'll need to be sure to keep this in mind when building a town, right?
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I don't really get it but okay

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CodeGorilla
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Re: AZCT: Level 6, Old <townname> (Bracelet Dungeon v2)

Postby CodeGorilla » 4 years ago

cheez8 wrote:This seems like a really neat idea for a dungeon environment, and I can't wait to see what you'll make of it! (Same goes for a lot of the themed dungeons that people have started making, really, but something about the old town just strikes me as an even cooler concept.)

Guess we'll need to be sure to keep this in mind when building a town, right?
Yes. In fact, I've hit a bit of a wall where I need to know what graphics we're using for the town in order to make this dungeon work. >>;

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Re: AZCT: Level 6, Old <townname> (Bracelet Dungeon v2)

Postby jayScribble » 4 years ago

Sorry that I'm late: I like the basic layout of the "dungeon". I just wanna know about what enemies you're gonna use for this dungeon.
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CodeGorilla
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Re: AZCT: Level 6, Old <townname> (Bracelet Dungeon v2)

Postby CodeGorilla » 4 years ago

jayScribble wrote:Sorry that I'm late: I like the basic layout of the "dungeon". I just wanna know about what enemies you're gonna use for this dungeon.
Not sure exactly. I'm thinking Tektikes and Keese for the sewer section, since I'm intending it to be mostly water that you have to jump over. Other than that, no clue.

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Nabe
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Re: AZCT: Level 5, Old <townname> (Bracelet Dungeon v2)

Postby Nabe » 2 years ago

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1oz02pkngix5h ... e.qst?dl=0

The playable Level 5, sans boss. It's essentially the same dungeon as before, just with some visual variance. I did streamline some segments, and removed a couple enemies on almost every screen -- but playtesting would be appreciated to get the enemy selections where they need to be.

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CodeGorilla
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Re: AZCT: Level 5, Old <townname> (Bracelet Dungeon v2)

Postby CodeGorilla » 1 year ago

So I just put up a quest with my first pass at the boss for Level 5. It can be found at .../AZCT/Dungeon 5 - Bracelet/lakitu_test.qst. I'd like some of y'all to give it a try and let me know what you think.

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Nabe
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Re: AZCT: Level 5, Old <townname> (Bracelet Dungeon v2)

Postby Nabe » 1 year ago

I like your boss; mine was going to be a Thwomp-type enemy wearing a stack of throwable hats. :D
The Lakitu moves nicely and the throwing animation is good. I wish it would throw less turtles at once, but throw them more often, because between turtles a lot of time is spent waiting for Lakitu to decide to do something else, if you didn't get a turtle shell. It might be nice if the Lakitu threw two turtles at once in the angry phase, or threw them twice as fast, since it throws like 10 of them. It's also sometimes possible for Lakitu to throw all of its turtles above the room awkwardly. The Lakitu's hitbox seems unexpectedly large, at least from the bottom. In the later phases when it starts to dive at you, it sometimes takes damage at the bottom of its arc without a clear reason. If it begins its dive when it's offscreen, it's hard to gauge how and when to avoid it before it hits you. You can use the sound as a cue, but only if you've experienced the boss enough to know that. It might be nice if jumping on it did damage when it dives, but that might make it too easy.

It's not too clear that touching the shell from the side would hurt you, since in Mario that makes a shell start moving instead. And since you have to get up next to a shell to pick it up, it's pretty easy to bump into it accidentally. (I only discovered that you can hold the Power Bracelet button to lift them after dying once. It's a nice addition, but since everything else that needs lifting in Level 5 needs you to walk up and press the button, it wouldn't really have occurred to me.) I'd like to remove the damage from a still shell altogether, and have the behaviour be that it starts moving when you touch it (and aren't holding the button).

It feels a bit awkward to have to climb a ladder to hit Lakitu with a shell, especially since Sheath's hands will be holding the shell in the final animation. Perhaps it could be thrown farther when Link is facing up? It's also awkward that you have to immediately move out of the way to avoid the shell hurting you when it falls back down. Also, the turtles and shells do an amount of damage that makes Link's health display numbers -- which is fine but avoidable. I think a half heart would be fine. When a moving turtle shell hits another turtle, it should probably kill the turtle immediately, since the damage makes the turtle invulnerable when the player likely wants to hit and kill it with the sword. Also, moving shells just pass by each other harmlessly.

I anticipate this boss being a bit less nerve-wracking in the final game, since the player won't have to keep swapping the glove and the feather.
Image

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CodeGorilla
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Re: AZCT: Level 5, Old <townname> (Bracelet Dungeon v2)

Postby CodeGorilla » 1 year ago

Nabe wrote:I like your boss; mine was going to be a Thwomp-type enemy wearing a stack of throwable hats. :D
The Lakitu moves nicely and the throwing animation is good. I wish it would throw less turtles at once, but throw them more often, because between turtles a lot of time is spent waiting for Lakitu to decide to do something else, if you didn't get a turtle shell. It might be nice if the Lakitu threw two turtles at once in the angry phase, or threw them twice as fast, since it throws like 10 of them. It's also sometimes possible for Lakitu to throw all of its turtles above the room awkwardly. The Lakitu's hitbox seems unexpectedly large, at least from the bottom. In the later phases when it starts to dive at you, it sometimes takes damage at the bottom of its arc without a clear reason. If it begins its dive when it's offscreen, it's hard to gauge how and when to avoid it before it hits you. You can use the sound as a cue, but only if you've experienced the boss enough to know that. It might be nice if jumping on it did damage when it dives, but that might make it too easy.

It's not too clear that touching the shell from the side would hurt you, since in Mario that makes a shell start moving instead. And since you have to get up next to a shell to pick it up, it's pretty easy to bump into it accidentally. (I only discovered that you can hold the Power Bracelet button to lift them after dying once. It's a nice addition, but since everything else that needs lifting in Level 5 needs you to walk up and press the button, it wouldn't really have occurred to me.) I'd like to remove the damage from a still shell altogether, and have the behaviour be that it starts moving when you touch it (and aren't holding the button).

It feels a bit awkward to have to climb a ladder to hit Lakitu with a shell, especially since Sheath's hands will be holding the shell in the final animation. Perhaps it could be thrown farther when Link is facing up? It's also awkward that you have to immediately move out of the way to avoid the shell hurting you when it falls back down. Also, the turtles and shells do an amount of damage that makes Link's health display numbers -- which is fine but avoidable. I think a half heart would be fine. When a moving turtle shell hits another turtle, it should probably kill the turtle immediately, since the damage makes the turtle invulnerable when the player likely wants to hit and kill it with the sword. Also, moving shells just pass by each other harmlessly.

I anticipate this boss being a bit less nerve-wracking in the final game, since the player won't have to keep swapping the glove and the feather.
All of the changes you requested are easily made. A few of them (like the weird hitbox) are actually just an over-sight that I thought I had fixed, but I forgot some of the oddities of ghost.zh. I hadn't played around with the settings much, but I left them all easily modifiable, and some of them are even miscellaneous settings on the

Lakitu

enemy itself. I'll work on making those and then update here when I've finished.

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CodeGorilla
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Re: AZCT: Level 5, Old <townname> (Bracelet Dungeon v2)

Postby CodeGorilla » 1 year ago

I believe all of the issues you wanted me to be address have now been addressed, and an updated version of the quest should be in the dropbox.

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Nabe
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Re: AZCT: Level 5, Old <townname> (Bracelet Dungeon v2)

Postby Nabe » 1 year ago

CodeGorilla wrote:I believe all of the issues you wanted me to be address have now been addressed, and an updated version of the quest should be in the dropbox.
It's feeling really good. The boss intro takes the right amount of time. I like that moving shells destroy one another.

When diving, the Lakitu sometimes still gets hurt at the bottom of its arc. This occurs without any shells on the screen. It only really seems to happen when the Lakitu dives as low as it possibly can, although it's possible I've missed it happening other times.

The Lakitu's hitbox is a little tall, for me -- this is most noticeable during angry dives, when I had a few moments of "I'm sure I cleared that jump" owing to the faster speed of the dive. I didn't get any measurement of it, but I'd imagine a couple pixels of let would make it feel fair. Alternatively, maybe Lakitu should have a construction helmet you can bounce off of. :D (Probably not.)

Something to keep the player from hiding on the ladder while lightning is going on would be good -- since this is underground, maybe falling rocks on one or both sides each time a lightning strike hits the ground? (Possibly with a screen shake as a bit of polish, which would help disorient the player as well.)

The lightning is also somewhat simple to avoid on the ground. It might be interesting to experiment with having the Lakitu sometimes throw a Spiny. The height of the Lakitu during lightning is perfect to jump while underneath him, which makes me wonder if some sort of moving obstacle to jump over during lightning would be a good addition -- like if he tossed a moving shell or Spiny shell before the lightning began. Then the player would have to jump over it, or lose their carried shell to get rid of it. Spinies would also be a nice change-up in turtle tosses sometimes. Just an idea, as I realize this represents a large amount of extra work.

A 3-4 hit limit per shell would be a good idea if possible, as right now you can carry one shell through the whole fight. You can actually camp out with one shell and the feather for the whole fight, just waiting for Lakitu to dive into your shell, and using the shell to destroy the other turtles immediately after they spawn. On the opposite spectrum, with good RNG you can do the fight in three turtle cycles by just throwing your shell upwards repeatedly, as you can get 6-10 hits in depending on how many turtles are thrown.

The Lakitu's health might be just a little low (for me), although I think the above changes would turn it into the perfect amount of health. That's also with the Blue Ring on for Link, but the location of the Blue Ring in the final game is going to make it very likely that the player has it for this fight. Anyway, I think the amount of damage output right now is just right to bring green Link in danger of dying over the course of the fight, and represents a good difficulty. It's a good fight as it is and I'd happily put it in the final.
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