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The Wand Level Thread (UPDATED SHIT INSIDE)

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LaularuKyrumo
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The Wand Level Thread (UPDATED SHIT INSIDE)

Post by LaularuKyrumo »

Hey y'all

Don't expect much here YET... Just reserving my space, and letting everyone know that I didn't just grab a slot and disappear off the face of the talkhaus. I'm in the process of learning the engine, playing around with it, figuring out just what can be done and what would be feasible to do (as in, not require expert techniques and complicated workarounds, or even just an inordinate amount of button presses x.x), and sort of penciling out dungeon design, before I really put up anything in particular.

Couple questions, for curiosity's sake. Since the magic wand was OP as shit in the original game, what sorts of things should I reasonably expect the player to have in their inventory by the time they show up? Roc's Feather for certain, and staple items for sure... but I probably shouldn't relegate the wand to level 9 or Zebraspace territory. Also just general stuff, like, are we using magic meter, etc etc etc. I'm sure I'll think of more specific questions as I start working for real, though.

EDIT: One idea for the dungeon I had was, sort of reversing it--after a screen with a guy who warns you about what's coming up, if you proceed, you find the wand in the first screen, but you can't leave without completing the dungeon. However, I'm not sure how to stop the player from taking the wand, killing themselves, saving and quitting, and respawning at the quest start point, thus essentially cheating the whole dungeon.

EDIT2: As probably (I don't actually remember) mentioned below, I've changed my mind on "locking the player in the dungeon". What I'll do is give them the wand deeper in the dungeon, but still have a combo that the player must touch in order to get in or out of the dungeon (excepting use of the escape at the end of the dungeon) that checks to see if the player has beaten the dungeon--and if not, it removes the wand (and the book if they have it) from their inventory. I'll forbid all items on that screen to make sure it can't be cheated around, but otherwise, the dungeon should work as a "normal" dungeon, except that you can't take the item out until you beat it.

I've also come up with a bunch of ideas for the dungeon itself... but it involves scripting an entirely different wand item. And I'm not nearly experienced enough to do that. Would LOVE it if someone would handle that for me, but if not, I'm going to have to dabble in scripting anyways and so I -suppose- I can learn how it all works. The intent is that, instead of dealing 4 points of damage like in vanilla, it deals no damage (except to keese obviously, because I'm pretty sure that behavior is more or less hardcoded), but stuns enemies. Similar to the boomerang, except that it's a projectile, obviously. It also lasts much longer, and the real kicker is that it would stun enemies through invincibility. Darknuts hit in the shield with magic? Still stunned. Peahats flying around? Still stunned. Additionally, immunity to the wand would have to be reserved for Ganon-tier enemies.

The book would, instead of granting fire, cause the wand to do 6 points of damage on impact, and loose lightning bolt projectiles in a cross-pattern that each deal 6 points of damage. (Needless to say, I'm not going to make the book easy to get.)

Feedback would be nice before I commit to this, though. :D
Last edited by LaularuKyrumo 11 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Nimono
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Re: The Wand Level Thread

Post by Nimono »

LaularuKyrumo wrote: EDIT: One idea for the dungeon I had was, sort of reversing it--after a screen with a guy who warns you about what's coming up, if you proceed, you find the wand in the first screen, but you can't leave without completing the dungeon. However, I'm not sure how to stop the player from taking the wand, killing themselves, saving and quitting, and respawning at the quest start point, thus essentially cheating the whole dungeon.
I believe the screen flag "Continue Here" will do that.
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jayScribble
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Re: The Wand Level Thread

Post by jayScribble »

Are you planning it so that you can only use the wand, or at least give use a limited arsenal we're allowed to use in the entire dungeon?
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LaularuKyrumo
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Re: The Wand Level Thread

Post by LaularuKyrumo »

Since this is going to be later-game, I'm loading the player up with several items and a few heart containers. Probably at least 10, minimum. At the very least, I don't want the player getting the wand with three heart containers and the wooden sword. I -might- soup up the wand a bit though because, while having a 4-power infinite projectile with the potential to set stuff ON FIRE is nice, it's in the awkward position of being too good for early'mid game while being too weak for late game usage.

Like, remember the Fire Rod in Link's Awakening? You probably don't, because it was used all of three times. Period.
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Nimono
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Re: The Wand Level Thread

Post by Nimono »

LaularuKyrumo wrote:Since this is going to be later-game, I'm loading the player up with several items and a few heart containers. Probably at least 10, minimum. At the very least, I don't want the player getting the wand with three heart containers and the wooden sword. I -might- soup up the wand a bit though because, while having a 4-power infinite projectile with the potential to set stuff ON FIRE is nice, it's in the awkward position of being too good for early'mid game while being too weak for late game usage.

Like, remember the Fire Rod in Link's Awakening? You probably don't, because it was used all of three times. Period.
Um, two things:

1: Wand's magic only has a damage of 2, same as the White Sword, which people probably would've had for many dungeons by then.
2: A lot of people agree that using the Book with the Wand is not a very good idea, because it makes enemies immune to fire but vulnerable to magic (like darknuts) quit taking damage from the magic. I suggest we don't use the Book specifically for that reason.

Perhaps we could script in a custom Wand that you can charge up? We could have it appear in the early game, and then later on you get the chance to acquire the Book, which instead of making it create flames when the Magic hits something, would allow you to charge up a big blast that does extra damage, perhaps more than the strongest sword we give out. Thus, risk vs. reward: the risk being that you take some time charging it up to get a bigger, stronger blast vs. a faster, but weaker, strike.
LaularuKyrumo
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Re: The Wand Level Thread

Post by LaularuKyrumo »

I said potential for a reason. :P

And technically, it does 4 points of damage, because internally, 1hp is reserved for enemies who die from boomerang, so the wood sword is technically strength 2, etc etc. I KNOW THINGS!

If we're scripting custom wand shenanigans, the sky's the limit I suppose. Hmm....
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Doctor Shemp
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Re: The Wand Level Thread

Post by Doctor Shemp »

If I'm reading you correctly, you're planning to give the player multiple heart containers at the start of the dungeon and force them to complete the dungeon before leaving? Am I the only one who thinks this is a really, really poor design choice? In an open-ended game like Zelda you should never force the player into an inescapable bottleneck like a dungeon that you can never leave, even if you die, until you beat it. Even if there is a warning.

Giving out the heart containers is also a bad choice because:
a) It cheapens every other dungeon that only gives 1
b) If your dungeon is so hard that the player needs a certain amount of heart containers to do it, then either it shouldn't be that hard or you should prevent the player from entering until they have enough (i.e. requiring the player to use items to enter). Although I think the second option is still poor generally because I support open-ended Zeldas over disguised linear Zeldas any day.
c) If your dungeon is so much harder than the others that it needs extra heart containers anyway then it's way too hard.

Also, if you have to design your dungeon in a special way because the wand is OP and it breaks things, then either don't include the wand in the game and pick a new item instead or nerf the wand.

As it stands this dungeon sounds like a bizarre, unfairly difficult and potentially game-ruining (by having the player get stuck in a place that's unwinnable for their skill level) anomaly. I'd suggest you seriously rethink this.
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Neobullseye
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Re: The Wand Level Thread

Post by Neobullseye »

Wait, I thought that Laularu meant that he (?) was going to give the tester a good amount of HCs for testing purposes, much like you did for the Proving Grounds, Doctor Shemp.

As for a slightly alternate idea for this: How about making it so that you have to get deep into the dungeon to get the Wand, then have to escape said dungeon while always restarting at the spot where they got the Wand? With a bit of good level design, this should ensure that the player won't get trappes in an unwinnable scenario; If they're good/strong enough to get in, they'll also be good/strong enough to get out.
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jayScribble
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Re: The Wand Level Thread

Post by jayScribble »

Neobullseye wrote:As for a slightly alternate idea for this: How about making it so that you have to get deep into the dungeon to get the Wand, then have to escape said dungeon while always restarting at the spot where they got the Wand? With a bit of good level design, this should ensure that the player won't get trappes in an unwinnable scenario; If they're good/strong enough to get in, they'll also be good/strong enough to get out.
The problem is that with (I think) one continue spot available, there's a problem on both ends: at the beginning, people get wand and die to get out faster; at the wand, people just get die first hand and then get the wand to escape. There's no easy way to make people use the wand and complete it if a reverse dungeon format is used. Then again, I think you can script it so that you can have another continue spot once an even has happened.

I say put the wand in the middle of the dungeon, and have the upgrade in a much harder part of it. That way we have the wand that can be collected, but must be used in the later part of the dungeon to get the upgrade and create an even for the player to get out.

I'm speaking out of thin air on this one.
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Nimono
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Re: The Wand Level Thread

Post by Nimono »

jayScribble wrote:The problem is that with (I think) one continue spot available, there's a problem on both ends: at the beginning, people get wand and die to get out faster; at the wand, people just get die first hand and then get the wand to escape. There's no easy way to make people use the wand and complete it if a reverse dungeon format is used. Then again, I think you can script it so that you can have another continue spot once an even has happened.

I say put the wand in the middle of the dungeon, and have the upgrade in a much harder part of it. That way we have the wand that can be collected, but must be used in the later part of the dungeon to get the upgrade and create an even for the player to get out.

I'm speaking out of thin air on this one.
There's a screen flag "Continue here". I'm pretty sure that what it does is, when you reach the screen that flag is on, you will always continue there until you reach another dmap or screen set with "Continue here"; thus, if it's set, neither issue you mentioned applies.

As for the idea itself, I don't really get why you don't want the player to leave by dying. If you put the Wand deep into the dungeon and make them fight their way to it and solve puzzles, they've already earned it...
LaularuKyrumo
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Re: The Wand Level Thread

Post by LaularuKyrumo »

The reason I want to "reverse" the dungeon is that I kind of want to use the wand to complete the dungeon itself. Also I'm fairly sure that dying and saving automagically sends the to the green square on the overworld without some sort of scripting magic.

And if I did end up going this route, not only would I make sure to give ample, unequivocal warning beforehand, but since I'm probably going to need scripting magic to make sure it can't be broken by savescumming, I'll have a side-room near the entrance where you can leave, BUT it'll reset the entire dungeon and take the wand away.

I'm also probably going to deal with the equipment-adding stuff in a pseudo-overworld, some sort of Cave of Equipments where you can grab stuff that you want before heading in, so if you wanted to "challenge" yourself or just prove that the dungeon is indeed beatable with 3 hearts wooden sword and feather, go for it.

pseudo-edit: Just realized that I'm putting a lot of effort into "defending" a dungeon idea that I may or may not even go with, from a single perceived "attack" on it, without even intending to do that. holy shit. WELP, time to go into hiding for about a week or two and brainstorm the shit out of this situation. May or may not replace the wand entirely with something else. May or may not do any number of things. Prepare your bodies, children.
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Doctor Shemp
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Re: The Wand Level Thread

Post by Doctor Shemp »

I wasn't trying to be hostile, just speaking my mind. And come to think of it, people won't just take the wand and leave because they'll need to beat the dungeon at some point to get the triforce piece.
Last edited by Doctor Shemp 11 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
LaularuKyrumo
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Re: The Wand Level Thread

Post by LaularuKyrumo »

Nope. They won't because it's an optional dungeon.

I think. That was my understanding at least.

I also totally figured out a solution to the "locking them in" problem. The spawn point in the dungeon has a tunnel that leads to a room with an exit, but using that exit before you clear the dungeon itself would remove the wand from inventory and put it back in the dungeon. Then I just disable using any item at all in that room alone, so that, for instance, you can't jump over the scripted combo with the feather, or hookshot across it, or some other shenanigans.
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LaularuKyrumo
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Re: The Wand Level Thread (UPDATED SHIT INSIDE)

Post by LaularuKyrumo »

Bump, because I edited the main post. I plan on keeping all the "Major" information in the OP so it's all in one place. Other than that, expect hilarious shenanigans in the future... mwehehehehehe :twisted:
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