AZCT: Level 1 Thread

[raekuul]

This thread is for discussing and improving Level 1 - Wyvern Cavern.

Status: Planning

Information:

7 rooms high by 6 rooms wide
1 DMap used
Dungeon Boss: Aquamentus
2 Keys
2 Locked Doors
3 Kill Rooms (including bosses)
1 Item Cellar
3 Sideview Rooms
1 Bombable Wall
2 Heart Containers
2 Gleeoks (4 head fire, 4 head fire)

[Slit08]

I guess sideview rooms will play like small jump n' run sections? If that's the case you guys could use the classic ASMT enemies for these rooms like Goopas.

[AlexanderXCIII]

Maybe it's just me but Fire Gleeoks seem a little extreme for Level 1; from my experience they're nearly impossible without sword beams or the Mirror Shield...

Off topic, but I'm assuming that we're creating seperate threads for each dungeon?

[raekuul]

Maybe it's just me but Fire Gleeoks seem a little extreme for Level 1; from my experience they're nearly impossible without sword beams or the Mirror Shield...

Off topic, but I'm assuming that we're creating seperate threads for each dungeon?

You don't need to kill either Gleeok to complete the dungeon, as the key in the room with the first Gleeok is in plain view already, and the prize for beating both of them is just a Heart Container.

And yes, separate threads was what I was going for by starting this thread - that way we don't lose complaints about the dungeons in the midst of complaints about other dungeons.

[AlexanderXCIII]

Ah, so the Gleeoks are optional. In that case, I actually like the idea of optional challenges in dungeons.

[raekuul]

It wouldn't be a Talkhaus Production if it didn't have ridiculously over-the-top optional segments, now would it?

[Moosh]

It wouldn't be a Talkhaus Production if it didn't have ridiculously over-the-top optional segments, now would it?

How over-the-top are we talking? See I'll admit I have this unhealthy obsession with stuff like wind that forces the player back to the beginning of the dungeon. I think it might stem from a certain traumatic childhood experience involving a moldorm.

[raekuul]

As long as it is possible to complete at some point without cheating, I don't really care how over the top the optional stuff gets.

EDIT: Oh, right, status update. I just need to figure out how to get the three sideview rooms working properly and my dungeon will be ready for populating and spiffifying. I've already placed the monsters that guard items (though I'll have to take it on faith that the second Fire Gleeok is working properly) as well as the items.

[raekuul]

And we're (sort of) ready to test this thing. The sideview rooms are currently dummied out until such time as the sideview ladder script is functional.

Just remember, the Fire Gleeok does NOT need to be fought - the flames can be dodged as long as you keep moving.

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[Validon98]

Okay, initial testing results (this is by no means final, I'll reattempt the dungeon later).

The room after the skeletons with the soldiers... are those meant to be possible? Same with the snakes. They just seem too ridiculously powerful to beat. The rest that I have managed to do is fine (even the huge room filled with skeletons by the first optional boss with the key). Also, are all of the bats supposed to disappear when a certain one of them is killed?

[Nimono]

Okay, initial testing results (this is by no means final, I'll reattempt the dungeon later).

The room after the skeletons with the soldiers... are those meant to be possible? Same with the snakes. They just seem too ridiculously powerful to beat. The rest that I have managed to do is fine (even the huge room filled with skeletons by the first optional boss with the key). Also, are all of the bats supposed to disappear when a certain one of them is killed?

The bats disappearing when one is killed sounds like the Ringleader flag. It makes all enemies die when whichever one is deemed the Ringleader is killed. As for soldiers...I assume you mean Darknuts, the red guys with shields?

[Validon98]

Okay, initial testing results (this is by no means final, I'll reattempt the dungeon later).

The room after the skeletons with the soldiers... are those meant to be possible? Same with the snakes. They just seem too ridiculously powerful to beat. The rest that I have managed to do is fine (even the huge room filled with skeletons by the first optional boss with the key). Also, are all of the bats supposed to disappear when a certain one of them is killed?

The bats disappearing when one is killed sounds like the Ringleader flag. It makes all enemies die when whichever one is deemed the Ringleader is killed. As for soldiers...I assume you mean Darknuts, the red guys with shields?

Okay, I'm not sure why the Ringleader flag needs to be set. The bats are all easy enough to kill anyways.
But yeah, the Darknuts... I was never able to kill a single one.
Also, sorry for my lack of knowledge of all of the enemy names. I haven't touched Zelda Classic or any LoZ game in forever, so... yeah. Plus I never knew the enemy names in the first place.

[Nimono]

Okay, I'm not sure why the Ringleader flag needs to be set. The bats are all easy enough to kill anyways.
But yeah, the Darknuts... I was never able to kill a single one.
Also, sorry for my lack of knowledge of all of the enemy names. I haven't touched Zelda Classic or any LoZ game in forever, so... yeah. Plus I never knew the enemy names in the first place.

Oh no no, I was just asking to be sure. Darknuts technically can be dealt with easily by changing the direction you attack in if you have Slash (if your attack hits them when you're not facing them, it damages them) or by placing a bomb in their path without facing them when placing it. (works for the same reason as the previous method does) I do agree that Darknuts might be too difficult for Level 1, though; they do like, a heart worth of damage or so. They're better left for around level 4 and on, unless intended to be used as a boss; then, one or two might work.

[Validon98]

The problem is that they're not being used as a boss in this situation. They're just... there. You don't have to kill them, but the fact that they're even there is frightening. You have to sneak around them or you're toast, because they only need to hit you three times to kill you (less if you don't have all three hearts of health).

[jayScribble]

Initial testing: hella hard for me since I'm new to this kind of thing: it felt like dungeon number 4 for me. Dang that midboss dragon!

Enemy count after dying: I don't know if this is normal so correct me if I'm wrong, but when I died and go to continue, the enemies in certain rooms stay dead until I kill them all, such as the darknuts and keese.

First skeleton room respawn: after finally getting the roc feather, when I went back to the first skeleton room (don't know the official name) at low health, the door on top locked up again and the skeletons respawn, as if I didn't killed them before when I went through there 20-something times. As a result, I got cornered and died again.

Hint on killing the darknuts:

stay in the doorway and attack them on their sides: they cannot hurt you if you position yourself correctly, and If you keep dying in this dungeon, kill all but one to minimize the numbers of the darknuts within the room. Hit-and-run is also an option for the first room, but the second room they're in, you better hope that they don't spawn so they block the path to the upwards doorway.

Since they're not needed to be killed, I suggest avoiding them entirely and hope they spawn in such a way you can rush through the next door without trouble.

What you should worry about is the midboss dragon guarding the doorway after the first 3-flare dragon which is quite easy if you watch it's mouth.

[raekuul]

Yeah, I probably will reduce the numbers of Darknuts. I probably won't get rid of them entirely. There should be no situation where you have to directly attack something that you cannot reliably kill in this dungeon.

The ringleader flag on the keese in that one room was intentional (and there is a precedent of Keese with Ringleader in the original Zelda), though that should only happen in one room. I may add a ringleader flag to that lv 2 rope as well (though the lv 1 ropes are easy enough to kill with slash that it doesn't make too big of a difference tactically.

And I like it when I make the player have to be sneaky.

I don't remember which rooms have the forced respawns, but I think the skeleton key room (ha) has that flag and I think the keese room right before the Roc's Feather has that as well.

Does anybody think adding the one-head Gleeok as a mandatory kill was too much?

[Nimono]

Yeah, I probably will reduce the numbers of Darknuts. I probably won't get rid of them entirely. There should be no situation where you have to directly attack something that you cannot reliably kill in this dungeon.

The ringleader flag on the keese in that one room was intentional (and there is a precedent of Keese with Ringleader in the original Zelda), though that should only happen in one room. I may add a ringleader flag to that lv 2 rope as well (though the lv 1 ropes are easy enough to kill with slash that it doesn't make too big of a difference tactically.

And I like it when I make the player have to be sneaky.

I don't remember which rooms have the forced respawns, but I think the skeleton key room (ha) has that flag and I think the keese room right before the Roc's Feather has that as well.

Does anybody think adding the one-head Gleeok as a mandatory kill was too much?

Gleeoks aren't exactly easy to beat at the start, so yeah, I think it might be a bit much for the very beginning of the game.

Also, when rebalancing the Darknut room, I suggest perhaps putting some walls of blocks for the player to hide behind; if they're below the blocks, they can attack up through them, which makes Darknuts a lot easier to beat. Would make them much better for Level 1, considering how slow the red ones are. Just don't go overboard, please. ;P

[jayScribble]

Yeah, ease up with the one-headed Gleeok: getting pattern on him was a pain and with him removing one heart if you were hit by it, it's not something good to be facing within the first dungeon.

I would suggest putting a darknut(maybe only a red one) in that room with a few blocks to disrupt it's random nature and create hiding places for the player, so that figuring out how to kill it gives experience on how to handle it in future dungeons. I would also suggest putting the dragon in the room before into that room just to make things easier.

Maybe two darknuts are enough in the first room they're in, but keep the second room as it is, since when you get the roc feather, you can use the middle island with the red rupee to avoid them easier. Then again, the path to the next door is one tile thick, so changing around the floor thickness near the walls might be a good idea.

[raekuul]

Changes made:

First keese room now has 10 keese instead of 5
Rope room - Lv 2 Rope is now a ringleader
All darknut rooms have been reduced to having 1 darknut
1 Head Gleeok has been replaced with 2 Goriyas
Room after the first Aquamentus no longer has a shutter
Room before the Fire Gleeok has one less Goriya
All keese rooms have ringleaders now
All ringleaders are now in some way different from other enemies of the same type
Aquamentus is now a ringleader in all rooms he appears in
The Fire Gleeoks have been marked "Dungeon Boss, Don't Return"
The Lv 2 Goriya is now a Ringleader
The Aquamentus that drops a large magic jar is now marked to always return
The Aquamentus that guards Roc's Feather is now marked to always return
Various small changes

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EDIT: Jayscribble: I didn't intend to disregard what you said as feedback, it's just that I was composing this post and had already made these changes by the time you had posted.

OTHER EDIT: Cheat password is 4

[jayScribble]

It's alright: I'll check the new changes and post the bugs/problems with my edit.

Edit: Much easier than before, mainly due to now I know how to do every room that was unchanged. I stilled died a couple times, but that's good enough for me.

The respawning skeletons and the locked door still happened to me as reported in my report post, and I died due to stupidity: facing them again with low health is not a good idea. It seems that collecting the roc feather is making the second and third room respawn the enemies in there.

This is certainly worthy of a first dungeon, but a fix for the above problem would certainly make it completely better, so a five out of five at best for a first dungeon. :D

Tried it again without the swing as a challenge: harder without a wider range of attack, but still doable.

I didn't do stupid things people would abnormally do, but I did my best as a Zelda: LTTP player (not a veteran, since I'm still stuck on 19 hearts )

[Validon98]

It's alright: I'll check the new changes and post the bugs/problems with my edit.

I'll do the same when I have time, because right now I'm pretty busy and can't really test things out now (although it sounds as if I'll probably be able to beat this dungeon now).

EDIT: Results! After a few tries, I actually beat the dungeon (thank you, key items staying with me even after dying).

I think that the first Darknut room is now too easy. With only one there, the challenge is rather gone, as I can simply sneak around. Two Darknuts would probably be good for that room. The other Darknut room can probably stay the same. The rest of the dungeon was fine. My deaths were really out of stupidity and rushing things rather than being careful. I think once the sideview rooms are implemented, this dungeon is good to go. It's still a little challenging, but then again I'm not an LoZ veteran (I only got through the Light World portion of LttP and never finished the Dark World... *sigh*).

[raekuul]

Okay, thanks guys.

The water is just a placeholder for pits, but I may leave it in because wyverns need water too

[jayScribble]

The water is just a placeholder for pits, but I may leave it in because wyverns need water too

Good to hear: water is less intimidating as opposed to pits for a first dungeon.

I'll mess with things in the level a bit to see what could be slightly more challenging for me. If you wanted the dungeon to be slightly more challenging, I'll be happy to give some suggestions. If you're happy with the current outcome, all I can do is just give a smile and two thumbs up for a great dungeon. :D

[raekuul]

I'm mostly concerned with layout stuff and plausibility. That's why I'm fine with reducing all the darknuts and removing the one-head Gleeok - I'm a decent enough Zelda player and enough of a coward to where they don't trouble me as much as they do normal players.

[AlexanderXCIII]

I decided to take this level for a spin, and so far it's not bad.

However:
- The dungeon itself feels kinda bare, and it isn't much of a cavern.
- You say that the midboss Aquamenti are set to always return, but they didn't (the one in the Roc's feather room and I killed each other at the same time, and he(she?) wasn't there when I got back), perhaps check something in the enemy editor?
- I felt that the final Aquamentus was too easy, especially since Link can jump over the fireballs with Roc's Feather, and too similar to the previous ones.
- In the first darknut room, perhaps add a prize for beating it; it feels odd to have one there without any real motivation for fighting it.