AZCT: A Zelda Classic Thing - Basic Planning Thread

[Nimono]

As far as I can tell, the incentive to explore was based on a Z1 model: find money, buy things. I don't think the heart limit should go higher than 20, if it's changed at all, because it becomes inflation at that point, and we'd have to start adjusting enemy damage. 20 hearts minus 11 is 9 heart containers to dole out -- if we stick to three full containers for Legendary Monsters, and the one container that's in Level 1 behind twin Fire Gleeoks, that's five hearts left, which can be a total of 20 Pieces of Heart, which is just right.

Well, personally, I like exploring to collect new items. Exploring only to get money means either grinding if you give no Rupee rewards, or a quickly-maxed wallet if you do. Look at A Link Between Worlds: it takes a "find money, buy upgrades" approach, but after I got everything, my wallet maxed out very fast despite holding 9999 Rupees. Thus, in the end, your exploration feels...pointless.

Aside from hearts, there are the sword upgrades, the three magics from OoT, the scrolls, and several magic containers. That's 15-20 items sitting on the overworld. There are also 8 sub-dungeons, many of which have intended multiple revisits to explore for better stuff, for 13-15 more items. And that doesn't include overworld rupee drops in caves or whatever, which can be traded for the other chunk of the item list in shops. So there isn't going to be any shortage of exploration rewards.

Like I said, we don't have to use every item in the engine just because it's there. We don't HAVE to put all the scrolls in, we don't HAVE to put all the rings in, we just put in however many we think is good. Like, for example: if we use Cane of Byrna, I don't think we need to put in Nayru's Love, or vice versa. They do the same thing, only Cane of Byrna can also damage enemies. In fact, I recommend we do just that!

I brought up an idea earlier in the thread that Talkhaus users could be characters in the game as part of a trading sequence, but here's a different idea in that vein: say there are X available bombable rupee caves on the overworld. Each of those caves could have a single Talkhaus user in it, and they could come up with their own dialogue for the cave.

I like the rupee cave idea more, honestly. Makes them feel more "secret"!

[Nabe]

Well, personally, I like exploring to collect new items. Exploring only to get money means either grinding if you give no Rupee rewards, or a quickly-maxed wallet if you do. Look at A Link Between Worlds: it takes a "find money, buy upgrades" approach, but after I got everything, my wallet maxed out very fast despite holding 9999 Rupees. Thus, in the end, your exploration feels...pointless.

I agree.

Like I said, we don't have to use every item in the engine just because it's there. We don't HAVE to put all the scrolls in, we don't HAVE to put all the rings in, we just put in however many we think is good.

Again, I agree. :D For example, the active subscreen I've had sitting around for months includes only these items:

zelda002.png (26.34 KiB) Viewed 3108 times

Thing is, of the ones seen here, only a handful are planned as shop items. The majority are found in dungeons, minidungeons, or on the overworld. So from my point of view, this game is pretty set on exploration rewards, especially if 20 pieces of heart are added to the mix.

[Doctor Shemp]

I favour a balance between grinding to buy things and exploring to find things. In regards to the heart pieces, I think that exploring to find them is a good idea, but we still have magic containers to hide as well (increase to max magic).

The way Overworld 1 is set up now is that the White Sword is hidden on the overworld, as are heart piece(s) and magic container(s) (I forget the number). I'd also planned to hide the Stone of Agony but I can't remember if we're using that or not.

Available to buy on Overworld 1 is (excluding basic things like ammo & hearts): Bait, Bomb Bag (Medium (20)), Blue Candle, Cane of Byrna, Charge Ring 1, Heart Ring 1, Magic Ring 1, Peril Ring, Peril Beam Scroll, Spin Attack Scroll, Wallet 1 (500), Wealth Medal 1 & Whisp Ring 1. If we were to hide all of those instead we'd run out of space. That's the other consideration: you can have three items to buy on one screen but only one hidden item. You can hide shops too - as I've done with a fair few of them - to combine the two mechanics anyway.

[Nimono]

Oh yeah, since I'm currently building the Shield dungeon, I decided to check on what each Shield blocks. Here's what I've found:


-The following weapons can be blocked: Rock, Arrow (Spear), Boomerang, Fireball, Sword Beam, Magic, Fire, "Script Weapon", and Boss Fireball. Explosions are impossible to block.
-Small Shield only blocks the first three.
-Magic Shield blocks what Small does, plus Fireball, Sword Beam, Magic, and Script Weapon.
-Mirror Shield blocks all but Boss Fireball for whatever reason, reflects Rock, Fireball, Magic, and Script Weapon.
-Arrows, Boomerangs, and Fire cannot be reflected.

This is all defaults. Overall, Mirror Shield isn't much of an upgrade aside from reflecting some of the things that the Magic Shield simply blocks. Should we change any of this so Mirror Shield actually feels like an upgrade instead of just "hey look, let's reflect everything we previously blocked!" and "hey look this will make fire gleeok easier"? We can change any defenses we want, but whatever we choose to do will determine how I build the second half of the shield dungeon.

[Lejes]

Blocking boss fireballs is always a nice upgrade. Feels like very few quests do it, too. To make the mirror shield more useful, you could give various enemies weaknesses to reflected objects, since all four types of them each have their own category in enemy defenses.

[Nabe]

@Mirror Shield, +1 for blocking boss fireballs, and we could make an enemy laser weapon that it can reflect as well, for variety's sake? Perhaps it also wards off vampires...

The way Overworld 1 is set up now is that the White Sword is hidden on the overworld, as are heart piece(s) and magic container(s) (I forget the number). I'd also planned to hide the Stone of Agony but I can't remember if we're using that or not.

Available to buy on Overworld 1 is (excluding basic things like ammo & hearts): Bait, Bomb Bag (Medium (20)), Blue Candle, Cane of Byrna, Charge Ring 1, Heart Ring 1, Magic Ring 1, Peril Ring, Peril Beam Scroll, Spin Attack Scroll, Wallet 1 (500), Wealth Medal 1 & Whisp Ring 1. If we were to hide all of those instead we'd run out of space. That's the other consideration: you can have three items to buy on one screen but only one hidden item. You can hide shops too - as I've done with a fair few of them - to combine the two mechanics anyway.

Since the Lens is a main quest item, Stone of Agony should be in the game, but left to very late-game so that the player can use it to clean up what they've missed, without having it early to thwart all our attempts at secrecy.

Magic containers should be 8 in total IMO, if only because that's how I drew the meter on the subscreen. Two of those are already hidden in FireSeraphim's minidungeons, which are actually quite large and have lots of room for collectibles. As well, I plan to write a pickup script for every item that uses magic, which will give the player a magic container the first time they get a magic item (and never again) to ensure that the player has magic, and also it'll refill their magic on pickup. So that leaves five magic containers up for grabs as rewards if we follow that plan.

I removed the Blue Candle from the overworld shop you had it in, since it's now in the Level 2 shop, if that's cool.

[Nimono]

@Mirror Shield, +1 for blocking boss fireballs, and we could make an enemy laser weapon that it can reflect as well, for variety's sake? Perhaps it also wards off vampires...

Sure thing! But, should the Magic Shield have any defenses removed?

Since the Lens is a main quest item, Stone of Agony should be in the game, but left to very late-game so that the player can use it to clean up what they've missed, without having it early to thwart all our attempts at secrecy.

I forget, what exactly does the Stone of Agony do?

I removed the Blue Candle from the overworld shop you had it in, since it's now in the Level 2 shop, if that's cool.

We could easily have it in both shops. The original game did that.

[Doctor Shemp]

I removed the Blue Candle from the overworld shop you had it in, since it's now in the Level 2 shop, if that's cool.

So long as you replaced it with something consistent with the already established price scheme, that's fine. With respect to the price scheme, I'd suggest that all shops in dungeons have about a 20% markup on overworld prices to reflect their convenience. For example, buying snacks at the 7-Eleven is more expensive than buying them at the supermarket, but you have to seek out the supermarket, while the 7-Eleven's right there. Same principle.

Alternatively, with respect to the candle

We could easily have it in both shops. The original game did that.

Having basic items be sold on both islands would prevent the player having to switch islands to get something basic. More specialized things like scrolls and rings should definitely be kept to a single island though.

[Nabe]

Sure thing! But, should the Magic Shield have any defenses removed?

The only thing I can think of is magic, amusingly. We use a lot of Wizzrobes in this game, right up to and including Level 8, so it would be good to still have them be a viable threat. But that can be mitigated somewhat by using other types of Wizzrobes, so it's not really a big deal.

I forget, what exactly does the Stone of Agony do?

It makes Link visibly shake when there's a secret nearby (or if you're standing on it, depending on how you set it up). So it's not an extreme giveaway, but still probably an Island 2 item.



@Blue Candle, I didn't replace it with anything. For now, I'll put it back at a lower price.

[Nimono]

The only thing I can think of is magic, amusingly. We use a lot of Wizzrobes in this game, right up to and including Level 8, so it would be good to still have them be a viable threat. But that can be mitigated somewhat by using other types of Wizzrobes, so it's not really a big deal.

Yeah, I'm not sure we should remove the MAGIC Shield's ability to block MAGIC. Yeah, it makes it so teleporting wizzrobes can't hurt you as long as you pay attention, but in that case, they wouldn't be hitting you anyway because you can walk out of their line of attack, unless the room is small, cramped, and has 10 wizzrobes.

And the Blue Wizzrobes are still a massive pain.

It makes Link visibly shake when there's a secret nearby (or if you're standing on it, depending on how you set it up). So it's not an extreme giveaway, but still probably an Island 2 item.

Ah. Well, hm. Right now, I have the path to the Mirror Shield (not fully built) require two triggers to be activated simultaneously, but I want to keep Aposke's plan of needing both the item needed for the trigger and the Hipster Glasses in order to open the path; without the rule for Lens revealing trigger hints, this would currently be impossible. How would I keep his idea without requiring that quest rule? I wouldn't want to make it an invisible walkway, that would just be easy to accidentally find and brute-force...

[Lejes]

Combo cycling invisible path.

[Nabe]

We're not using the Lens revealing triggers rule?

[Nimono]

We're not using the Lens revealing triggers rule?

Well, you speak of wanting to use the Stone of Agony to reveal secrets so the Hipster Glasses don't give away all secrets just for being used, and there's a rule that shows you what item you need to use to activate a given trigger, which gives it all away, so I figured people didn't want that rule on. Currently, the shield dungeon has it on.

[Nabe]

What I meant with the Stone is that it enables the player to know there's a secret on the screen without having to have the intuition to think that's the case and/or without trying the Lens on every screen. It gives the player a tap on the shoulder for every secret. It will be great for cleaning up loose secrets at the end, when the ambition to search runs out and the player is ready to wind things up. But it should only be available in lategame (behind hammer posts and a Hover Boot gap, ideally) so that it doesn't mess with the main game in any way.

The final call really depends on how raekuul is setting up Level 6 and how's he's making use of the Lens, since that dungeon sets up the precedent for the remainder of the game.

If we don't use the quest rule though, flag 14 works well enough to notify the player of stuff, I guess. It just has to be used sparingly, and applied manually, which can be tedious.

[Nabe]

What do you mean regarding A2XT and Sheath? I haven't played it yet, just been watching raocow's playthrough of it. Do you mean how all the characters basically seem to see Sheath as forgettable? (see: intro where "Sheath was there, too" with no talk)

So far, from watching (I'm sure Shemp would know more):

- Her hearts seem to be carrots
- Her Rupees are candy

It would be cool to have consistency across both projects, and it's as simple as changing some sprites to do so, which continues the consistency that exists if we also use ASMT enemy designs, i.e. goopas. And I mean, the tone of AZCT has generally been more serious than the other collabs, which I think lends to sticking with the straight-laced Zelda 1 "this is a video game" vibe rather than making things wacky. But, I was going for an ASMBXT vibe with my heart designs, and the maps are based on a.t.x.s. wobbly comic panels, and there is some humour here and there. So if we're going to include the enemies and all of that, it's beginning to feel like we should implement carrots/candy too.

[Nimono]

What do you mean regarding A2XT and Sheath? I haven't played it yet, just been watching raocow's playthrough of it. Do you mean how all the characters basically seem to see Sheath as forgettable? (see: intro where "Sheath was there, too" with no talk)

So far, from watching (I'm sure Shemp would know more):

- Her hearts seem to be carrots
- Her Rupees are candy

It would be cool to have consistency across both projects, and it's as simple as changing some sprites to do so, which continues the consistency that exists if we also use ASMT enemy designs, i.e. goopas. And I mean, the tone of AZCT has generally been more serious than the other collabs, which I think lends to sticking with the straight-laced Zelda 1 "this is a video game" vibe rather than making things wacky. But, I was going for an ASMBXT vibe with my heart designs, and the maps are based on a.t.x.s. wobbly comic panels, and there is some humour here and there. So if we're going to include the enemies and all of that, it's beginning to feel like we should implement carrots/candy too.

...changing Rupees to Candy would definitely make shopping more hilarious. I can easily see people on YouTube commenting about how all the shopkeepers are absolutely desperate for Candy for whatever silly reason. I approve!

[Lejes]

Posting about this now so I don't forget later: I changed the solidity of at least one combo in the flipper dungeon qst. 774. I'll duplicate it onto the page with all the rest of dungeon's combos and replace it on every screen that uses it later. I wasn't thinking about how much of a pain it is to import combos in ZQuest when I was doing this.

[Nabe]

Posting about this now so I don't forget later: I changed the solidity of at least one combo in the flipper dungeon qst. 774. I'll duplicate it onto the page with all the rest of dungeon's combos and replace it on every screen that uses it later. I wasn't thinking about how much of a pain it is to import combos in ZQuest when I was doing this.

In the overworld .qst, I've put your combos at 2048-89 (page 8) on the combo table. So when you're doing that replacement, if you could place the duplicated combo in 2086, 2087, or anywhere after 2089, that'll make the import easier. I don't mind doing the replacement on the other stuff, and in fact I'm importing your enemies right now (into the same enemy slots for simplicity's sake).

...changing Rupees to Candy would definitely make shopping more hilarious. I can easily see people on YouTube commenting about how all the shopkeepers are absolutely desperate for Candy for whatever silly reason. I approve!

That would certainly be a fringe benefit. Imagine: green/blue/yellow/red wrapped candies for 1/5/10/20, and then we could do different types of candy for larger amounts.

I'm interested in Shemp's take, since wacky stuff like that contrasts with the serious plot.

[raekuul]

What I'm planning on right now is that you'll need the Hipster Glasses to see where the actual floor is for most of the dungeon, plus to see half of the boss fight. not sure which half yet.

[Doctor Shemp]

I'm interested in Shemp's take, since wacky stuff like that contrasts with the serious plot.

Uh, it depends. While it's possible to get a good fish-out-of-water vibe from Sheath, a silly character, being deposited in a serious universe, that's hard to write, although not exceedingly so, and doesn't work if the universe is silly, even on the fringes. Well, it might, but only in the hands of an exceptional writer, and I don't think any of us are that.

Of course, we could change everything to silly but that would involve substantial rejigging, especially of the music. Although Gargoyle's Dungeon's music is a little silly, but I was thinking about changing that anyway.

Unless we want bizarre inconsistencies, and I don't see why we would, we should commit one way or the other, with the exception of Sheath.

[raekuul]

Let's just say Sheath finds the local currency to be delicious and leave it at that?

[Nabe]

I'm interested in Shemp's take, since wacky stuff like that contrasts with the serious plot.

Uh, it depends. While it's possible to get a good fish-out-of-water vibe from Sheath, a silly character, being deposited in a serious universe, that's hard to write, although not exceedingly so, and doesn't work if the universe is silly, even on the fringes. Well, it might, but only in the hands of an exceptional writer, and I don't think any of us are that.

Of course, we could change everything to silly but that would involve substantial rejigging, especially of the music. Although Gargoyle's Dungeon's music is a little silly, but I was thinking about changing that anyway.

Unless we want bizarre inconsistencies, and I don't see why we would, we should commit one way or the other, with the exception of Sheath.

Level 7 is definitely silly as is, though. Level 5 a bit, as well. And the Shield minidungeon has a sponge tile and Sponge Shield, and there's a "Hipster Glasses" item. That's all collaborative content. There's also my comic panel menus, which are inherently whimsical.

Certainly, that could all be changed. But at that point, the seriousness is being forced in against the grain of the user content. I'd be more interested in a semi-silly world (which we already have to a degree) that treats itself as a real and serious world, but adheres to its own internal logic to do so. By writing the game that way, the world is dictated by the content that's in it -- e.g. my silly dungeon is silly, but the rest of the game treats it as a normal part of the world, and the silly content also doesn't treat the normal content as if it were abnormal. If it's done in that way, it won't sacrifice the integrity of the serious narrative.

[Nimono]

On top of that, aren't all the Things inherently silly? A2XT has a serious-sounding "Gotta save the everything!" plot, yet nothing in it is really taken seriously. There's no reason we can't have silliness while simultaneously having an overall serious story with trying to stop the Destroyer and save the islands.


Also on the note of the Sponge Shield, I'm wondering if maybe it'd be better to have the Mirror Shield be the Sponge Shield after all, considering that though sponges absorb, you can wring them out to make them let go of just about everything they've absorbed, much like how the Mirror Shield turns certain things back on the attackers. ...but then what would the Magic Shield be?

[raekuul]

Serious question: What combo are we using for the Sideview Ladder? I only ask because I was doing a run of the 1st overworld and couldn't complete my own dungeon for lack of ladders.

[Nimono]

We're using the first one, combo 768, I believe.