AZCT: A Zelda Classic Thing - Basic Planning Thread

[Nimono]

Oh yes, before I forget, I have a request to make:


Whenever we update things in the dropbox, I'd like there to be a companion changelog for each item detailing what's changed in each update. I know I'd like to know what the heck's been changed every time I see a file updated in the dropbox, so it'd be quite useful.

[Lejes]

I already did that with the text file in the flipper dungeon subfolder, and I agree that change log files for each thing would be helpful. Apparently I finished that on June 21!

[Nimono]

I already did that with the text file in the flipper dungeon subfolder, and I agree that change log files for each thing would be helpful. Apparently I finished that on June 21!

Ah, thank you very much for doing that, then! On that note, I suppose I should go ahead and upload what I have done for the Shield minidungeon along with a changelog, just to show some progress. Better to show progress and it not even be ready for testing than not show any and it be a while before any progress is shown.

[Nabe]

Done with the overworld for today; tomorrow hopefully I'll start to migrate Level 5's combos.

[Doctor Shemp]

Well, if you don't remember it at all, we have a problem! Clearly it needs more work to make it memorable. I don't think I explained it very well, looking back on it. I should go back and re-work the text.

The concept in-story was that the jewelry shop (I think - or one of the stores anyway) was insolvent and you needed to buy a line of credit (represented by the note) from a creditor to make the shop solvent again and be able to buy from it. The mechanical concept was that the shop sold high-end equipment that made the game a lot easier, so I figured that it warranted a downpayment to lock out new players.

Ah, that might've been mentioned while my computer was broken, I suppose. What sort of "high-end equipment" are we talking about here?

If I'm remembering correctly and it was the jewelry store, then the gear was:
Heart Ring (Level 1) for 125 rupees
Magic Ring (Level 1) for 100 rupees
Peril Ring for 100 rupees

Oh, and for standardisation purposes, here's the price list I devised for overworld 1, based on the original price scheme (although I think prices should be higher for shops in more dangerous locations, like in a dungeon, since you're paying extra for the convenience of not having to backtrack):
Arrows for 2 rupees each
Bait for 60 rupees
Blue Potion for 40 rupees
Bomb Bag (medium, fits 20) for 75 rupees
Bombs for 5 rupees each
Cane of Byrna for 80 rupees
Candle (blue) for 60 rupees
Charge Ring (level 1) for 75 rupees
Heart Ring (Level 1) for 125 rupees
Hearts for 10 rupees each
Magic Ring (Level 1) for 100 rupees
Peril Beam Scroll for 50 rupees
Peril Ring for 100 rupees
Red Potion for 70 rupees
Spin Attack Scroll for 50 rupees
Wallet 1 (fits 500) for 75 rupees
Wealth Medal 1 for 500 rupees
Whisp Ring 1 for 75 rupees

[raekuul]

Is anyone actually using wisps?

[Doctor Shemp]

Is anyone actually using wisps?

There's jinxers on overworld 1 near the Destroyer's Shrine unless someone removed them. I see where you're coming from though that a whisp ring is excessive for barely any jinxers. Probably we should have more jinxers or cut the whisp ring. Personally I think jinxers are good psychological weapons and they can effectively add stress to otherwise easy encounters and force the player to hurry. Maybe we could put some in the late game and/or the final dungeon.

[raekuul]

Hmm... A Patra battle with a jynxer in the same room could be quite stressful.

Do we have any monsters planned to only be vulnerable to the sword?

[Nabe]

If I'm remembering correctly and it was the jewelry store, then the gear was:
Heart Ring (Level 1) for 125 rupees
Magic Ring (Level 1) for 100 rupees
Peril Ring for 100 rupees

You have it set to the Potion Shop on 1:12, but you're right that gating those rings probably makes more sense.

I've added some town tiles you might want to play with to the overworld qst, btw.

[Nimono]

Is anyone actually using wisps?

There's jinxers on overworld 1 near the Destroyer's Shrine unless someone removed them. I see where you're coming from though that a whisp ring is excessive for barely any jinxers. Probably we should have more jinxers or cut the whisp ring. Personally I think jinxers are good psychological weapons and they can effectively add stress to otherwise easy encounters and force the player to hurry. Maybe we could put some in the late game and/or the final dungeon.

Ah! I could put them in a few rooms in the shield dungeon, possibly Level 3 as well. I always forget those things exist because I REALLY FREAKING HATE the permanent ones since then you have to backtrack and find one that removes the jinx.


Fun fact: their official name is Bubble. Go figure.

[Lejes]

I made a rough draft of the Leever boss for level 3. It's in the level 3 Dropbox folder. Admittedly I haven't actually played the dungeon at all, but that's why all the combo changes that happen during the fight are designated as constants at the top of the script file.

[Nimono]

I made a rough draft of the Leever boss for level 3. It's in the level 3 Dropbox folder. Admittedly I haven't actually played the dungeon at all, but that's why all the combo changes that happen during the fight are designated as constants at the top of the script file.

I gave it a test, but I have a few complaints:

-It pops in and out of the sand slowly
-Little variety in attacks. It just pops in and out slowly and then bounces around the room at high speed, which is easily avoided just by attacking it, which causes it to do no damage to you until it quits flashing; then, after taking some damage, it makes spikes rise and then circles in around you until it dies. I'd definitely like to see more variety in its attacks, and not limit either of these attacks to specific phases. Perhaps the spikes could be an attack on their own that appears rarely and goes away after a few seconds, while it uses the other attacks.
-And on that note, due to not damaging you after you damage it (which I think is a limitation of the engine), the boss tends to be kinda easy while its only way to damage you is ramming into you.
-Not a complaint, but could you perhaps have it use the red giant Leever graphics I "made" (read: increased the size of the default ones)? https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/268 ... leever.png


By the way, this is the list of attacks I had: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/268 ... sIdeas.txt
Perhaps whenever it hits the walls, it could make a few rocks fall from the ceiling (and break when hitting Link or the ground).

[Lejes]

I added rocks. The ones in the second phase are kind of weird. I need to find a better trajectory for them or come up with a different idea entirely. And I don't know why the boss's animation is screwed up, I'll figure it out later. One other idea I had is for small pillars to pop up at random locations during the bouncing phase. They would be solid, so the boss would of course bounce off them. I've just been too lazy to write the randomization code, since I'd need to make sure they don't appear underneath Link.

EDIT: And of course I figure out what was causing the animation problem seconds after posting this.

[Nimono]

Huh. Now the doubled size has made it almost impossible to dodge at this speed, not helped by the rocks actually exploding (which increases the range they can deal damage at). Oh, and I just realized: you're testing this with the wrong equipment. For level 3, you should be testing with 5 hearts, wooden sword, Roc's Feather, bombs, and the Whistle. Testing with anything else and balancing it for more hearts and stronger equipment will make the boss too hard when actually playing the game.

Also, I still think the attacks need to be more varied and not locked to a "phase one" and "phase two". If there must be phases, it should probably be limited to more aggression. Like, say, start the ramming attack as it being like a Level 1 leever where it targets you and digs underground when it hits a wall, but then at 1/4 of its health, it changes to the multi-bounce it currently has.

Oh, a thought. Perhaps it could have an attack pattern where it slowly chases the player?

[Lejes]

I like the bouncing. And covering the arena with damage combos makes sense as a final gambit, I think. I just need to thread the needle between an attack that's no threat and something impossible to dodge. The fight will definitely need rebalancing if the player isn't expected to have any projectile weapons. I can adjust the various speeds easily at least. I don't much care for slowly-chase-player attacks. With Zelda 1's small room size, it's very easy to get trapped in a position you can't escape, even when the enemy is moving slowly. I think I'll also reduce the number of rocks later.

[Nabe]

I played the original version, and just now the recent version.

What if it had a behaviour where it moved around sort of half underground, with the tip poking out like a shark? That would provide periods where it's less dangerous due to the smaller hitbox, but also invulnerable, with bomb rocks? The fight's a little short, so that would help with time as well as variety. Between that and having the Roc's Feather for the sections where it's larger, maybe with less rocks? Should be fine IMO.

During the spike phase, it's got very smooth movement, which looks a bit incongruous with normal Leever movement as well as how it moves back and forth over the spikes. Maybe spike combos popping up as it moves somehow? I'm in a hurry or else I'd have more ideas.

[Nimono]

I like the bouncing. And covering the arena with damage combos makes sense as a final gambit, I think. I just need to thread the needle between an attack that's no threat and something impossible to dodge. The fight will definitely need rebalancing if the player isn't expected to have any projectile weapons. I can adjust the various speeds easily at least. I don't much care for slowly-chase-player attacks. With Zelda 1's small room size, it's very easy to get trapped in a position you can't escape, even when the enemy is moving slowly. I think I'll also reduce the number of rocks later.

Oh yeah, I like bouncing, too, I just feel there's far too little variety and it's kinda underwhelming to me. (And no, despite being experienced with Zelda Classic, I'm not all that good at the combat. :p)


EDIT: Oh yeah, are we still changing Leevers to Sandcastles or not? If we are, I still think I should change the position of some of Level 3's rooms just for consistency's sake. It'd be silly to have the Leevers only be Leevers in my dungeon, but Sandcastles absolutely everywhere else! And sure, I could easily just change it to "Sandcastle Nest" or the like and have the boss be a giant Sandcastle, but in that case, why would the dungeon be in the shape of a Leever? (Then again, I guess we could say, development joke?)

[Nabe]

"Sand Castle".


To do that, you'd have to move a lot of screens to keep the progression the same or similar, which is the biggest flaw in my opinion.

We need to have a discussion about A2XT in general, about sprites and what they did with Sheath therein. I think I spotted a different sandcastle in there. Unless that was A2MT.

[Nimono]

"Sand Castle".


To do that, you'd have to move a lot of screens to keep the progression the same or similar, which is the biggest flaw in my opinion.

We need to have a discussion about A2XT in general, about sprites and what they did with Sheath therein. I think I spotted a different sandcastle in there. Unless that was A2MT.

It may be a big flaw to do that, but I honestly wouldn't mind if it were for the sake of consistency. But, again, thinking about it more, it may be perfectly fine to change every Leever to Sandcastles and leave the layout alone considering, well, the Sandcastles used to be Leevers, and the dungeon's in the shape of a Leever, so development joke. (And we can totally say it was intended from the start, uh huh, absolutely!)

What do you mean regarding A2XT and Sheath? I haven't played it yet, just been watching raocow's playthrough of it. Do you mean how all the characters basically seem to see Sheath as forgettable? (see: intro where "Sheath was there, too" with no talk)

[Lejes]

66% less rock, 1000% more bouncing. The boss is easier at first with its reduced speed, but now that I set up the expected equipment correctly, some of the other attacks seem rather mean.

[Nimono]

I'll get to testing that tomorrow (currently very late for me), but I have a question for all:

Exactly how many hearts should we be expecting for each dungeon, again? I think maybe we should go ahead and decide that, along with how many pieces of heart will become available between which dungeons and how many Sheath will start out with, and throw it onto the dropbox for easy access. After all, I just checked my level 3 quest file and found out I set it to start you with 6 hearts, not 5 as I previously thought, so I think it'd be good to go ahead and start deciding that for the purposes of boss balance.


To begin with, how many hearts will Sheath begin with? 3, as is the norm, or 4?

[jayScribble]

I would say 4 to keep things safe, but if we just have one heart container too much in the at the end of the postgame, then maybe 3.

If we're gonna do test with loadouts and hearts, we might do two types of test: Minimum, and Bonus. Minimum being only the main dungeons and all the items and hearts the player gets at that point in the game, and Bonus being the bonus dungeons and items as well as all the hearts that the player can get at that point.

For example: Level 3 can have 6 hearts along with only Roc's Feather, Small shield, Bombs, and Wooden Sword as the Minimum test, and maybe 8 hearts, and the Boomerang and Blue Candle as well as all the above for the Bonus.

[Nabe]

Starting the game with 3 makes sense because every Zelda game has you start with 3 (except Skyward Sword) and because Sheath has 3 hearts in ASMBXT. It also works with Shemp's heart container budget from page 21 (11 from dungeons, 8 heart pieces in minidungeons, 3 heart containers for legendary enemies on the overworld).

[Nimono]

Starting the game with 3 makes sense because every Zelda game has you start with 3 (except Skyward Sword) and because Sheath has 3 hearts in ASMBXT. It also works with Shemp's heart container budget from page 21 (11 from dungeons, 8 heart pieces in minidungeons, 3 heart containers for legendary enemies on the overworld).

No pieces of heart on the overworld? Where's the incentive to explore, then? Personally, I think those 8 Pieces of Heart should be on the overworld itself/in caves, and those 3 whole heart containers split into pieces as well. ...well...

ALSO we don't have to limit ourselves to 16 Heart Containers. We could have 18 or 20 or 24 or however many we want that's a multiple of 2, since we can edit the subscreen. We can rearrange things to where the entire heart bar is on two rows no matter how many hearts you have, so the only question is, how many do we want, and how many pieces of heart should we have on the overworld to encourage exploration?

As for the Legendary Monster thing, I suppose they can keep their heart containers, or maybe we can offer another reward for them?


Lastly, one thing I forgot to bring up earlier: Regarding all the shops, we don't necessarily have to sell all the items we have no dungeons for, guys. ;P A Link to the Past didn't make every item a dungeon item, or bought from a shop. Look at the Magic Cape, Cane of Byrna, and the Ice Rod- none of them were found in a dungeon, none of them were in shops. They were all just sitting in small caves, waiting for you to pick them up. In fact, the Ice Rod was necessary to beat the game, and yet the game never pointed you to it! We could very easily do the same for some of our leftover items, hiding them in caves on the overworld as rewards for exploration. Now, I'm not saying none of them should be in shops, I'm just saying we don't have to put ALL of them there. (Nor do we even need to add them...)

[Nabe]

ALSO we don't have to limit ourselves to 16 Heart Containers. We could have 18 or 20 or 24 or however many we want that's a multiple of 2, since we can edit the subscreen. We can rearrange things to where the entire heart bar is on two rows no matter how many hearts you have, so the only question is, how many do we want, and how many pieces of heart should we have on the overworld to encourage exploration?

As far as I can tell, the incentive to explore was based on a Z1 model: find money, buy things. I don't think the heart limit should go higher than 20, if it's changed at all, because it becomes inflation at that point, and we'd have to start adjusting enemy damage. 20 hearts minus 11 is 9 heart containers to dole out -- if we stick to three full containers for Legendary Monsters, and the one container that's in Level 1 behind twin Fire Gleeoks, that's five hearts left, which can be a total of 20 Pieces of Heart, which is just right.

Aside from hearts, there are the sword upgrades, the three magics from OoT, the scrolls, and several magic containers. That's 15-20 items sitting on the overworld. There are also 8 sub-dungeons, many of which have intended multiple revisits to explore for better stuff, for 13-15 more items. And that doesn't include overworld rupee drops in caves or whatever, which can be traded for the other chunk of the item list in shops. So there isn't going to be any shortage of exploration rewards.

I brought up an idea earlier in the thread that Talkhaus users could be characters in the game as part of a trading sequence, but here's a different idea in that vein: say there are X available bombable rupee caves on the overworld. Each of those caves could have a single Talkhaus user in it, and they could come up with their own dialogue for the cave.