NEW! SMW2 Yoshi's Island is "difficult"

[Yoshis_Fan]

Ok ok; now, forcefully rail against the level, and blame me, once more; then, let some balloons rise, dispense free kittens to everyone and we're all happy and well-tempered again (except those, who have cat hair allergy) and can go on living and try to handle that trauma.

[EiresWind]

6-S, with a couple of marked exceptions, consisted of incredibly tricky obstacle courses or overarching puzzles that took the bulk of your different approaches to design in this hack to their logical extremes. It rarely hinged on memorization by necessity save the aforementioned exceptions (and even then only sparingly) which, even in the remotest situations, is a critically important key to keeping failure from feeling frustrating. Its construction feels like the natural climax to the ideas your hack introduces over the course of its run.

2-E crosses, to put it as cliché and hyperbolic as possible, the Kaizo line. Obstacles enter the fray to such an extent or speed that they turn the platforming into a dressed up game of Simon, and that can only sustain itself as fun in the most specific of circumstances. An entire platforming gauntlet isn't one of them. It also robs the cleverness that's present in your other brutal stages or setpieces because it's easy to create difficulty by overload. I'm not saying you didn't put the thought into this that you did into the rest of the project, but the reliance for players without foreknowledge on rote memory bullshit will give off that impression regardless. It's a general sentiment across the level, so isolating specifics isn't really going to help. It's more of a wide spread.

If I had to give two simple ideas that would change the player's perception while not sacrificing the design of the level, I'd say either widen the layout enough that the time to react is heightened, or simply lessen the overall density of things. I'm sure raocow's reactions tomorrow (if there's a video) will give more of an earful on details than is very helpful to bullet point here. To be completely frank, I just don't have it in me to replay, save states or no, just to isolate the biggest culprit stretches. It almost feels like you were in a bit of a subconscious drive to top the challenges you'd already designed, which is understandable, but it doesn't make for a very satisfying experience to conquer. It feels more like an exam.

EDIT: I should proof-read before I bloody well post.

[Sebby19]

So you are telling me, that you did 6-S without savestates but did not manage to make it through 2-E?

Yes. 6-S wasn't packed with enemies and various other deathtraps; all it had on its side was the fastest autoscroll ever and length.

The whole process of learning the level is arduous, really. You die so quickly that you hardly have time to adjust to what actually killed you. It's not fun, in my opinion.

Hey! Spoiler that stuff, man!


For raocow: You can ground pound shells to get rid of them.

[Yoshis_Fan]

@EiresWind:
Finally someone with a comment on that level, which is worth to be read, since it's different from "too hard, I hate it!". I'm guessing you're right about the intention that made me design it as hard as it is. It was the very last level I've designed of the hack, so probably I wanted to have an exceptional challenge there. I think I can kind of help players to get through this by reducing the amount of obstacles and maybe by helping them to recognize the hazards early enough, maybe by putting a coin everywhere, where there's an icicle or lava bubble. I think the thing, that both of these enemies are invisible of sorts, make it so difficult to react. You don't know which of the icicles fall down and you also don't know, whether the lava in front of you is safe, since a lava bubble could jump out at any time.
As for the non-!-switch parts: Did you find them too hard either? Because in my sincere opinion, it's a mere matter of patience to go through them.


As for my thoughts; of course I've put effort and calculatio into the level, since there are some puzzles, too, and the distance between each !-switch must be designed and adjusted. Please don't think, I'd just have it dashed off. I guess using overly many obstacles, I have tried to kind of top Secret 6, which is weird, since Secret 6 declaredly is supposed to be the hardest and best level of the hack. That's why I'm reacting kind of crestfallen, it's just like you put effort into something and the only thing you get is negative feedback.

[EiresWind]

No I don't think it's too hard, because that's meant to be a minefield and nothing forces a minimum speed. But understand my opinion might be the minority's.

Also, it's good you're willing to accept criticisms and suggestions unlike a lot of hack designers, but you don't need to take people's comments so personally even if they're brief or vague. You take a guy who's just spent 90 minutes or whatever arbitrary time conquering a stage he doesn't like, he's not gonna be in the most constructive of moods. If people thought a few individual misfires or disagreements overshadowed your entire hack they wouldn't have bothered playing this far. I understand the frustration that comes from putting a lot into something and getting unanimous negative response, but sometimes them's the breaks. But anyway, you've already addressed fixes that wouldn't sacrifice much of the design, so your effort isn't going to waste or anything. It's all good, man.

[Ditocoaf]

Yoshis_Fan, this is what you must understand: the creator of a level (or a game) is the WORST possible judge of its difficulty. This is one of the major reasons why playtesters exist, to tell the creator how difficult something is, because the creator is unavoidably incapable of judging the difficulty of something he made.

Some players are telling you it is too hard. Not just "extremely difficult", they are saying too difficult. This is an area where, no matter what, the players know better than the creator, because the creator placed every element of that level piece by piece.

My point is: Yoshis_Fan, this is not the time to argue or get defensive. People are saying the game is good, this level is bad. People are not saying anything to insult you personally. Just accept the new information. If you are okay with most players thinking this level is entirely unreasonable, then that's that.

[Yoshis_Fan]

Yes, yes, I got it a few hours ago already.
About the judging, you're only partly right, because the creator is capable of telling how hard something is, if you do NOT play it blind. What the creator is incapable of is telling you how hard something is when you play it blind.
Aside from that, what bugged me most about it, was the way they were telling me their disapproval.
It's not like they made constructive ideas of improvement, it basically was "too hard, I hate it!", as said in my last post, at least that is how I grasped it. EiresWind was the first one to give constructive ciriticism. Also, I'm willing to change it, and I will change it and I will publish another patch with the update. So the world's saved now. I do accept criticism, but at least give ideas of improvement or the likes, so it's not just a preferably full-throated complaint. (Also, I'd think it's normal for a hacker to wait a little for feedback and make changes later on, but as EiresWind said, it doesn't seem so. Well, I guess some people simply say "This is the final version, even if it's buggy/unsatisfying I will not change one byte anymore".)

Also, feel free to call me Yoshis Fan, the underline between the words is there because the forum-software won't allow for spaces in names.

[Ditocoaf]

About the judging, you're only partly right, because the creator is capable of telling how hard something is, if you do NOT play it blind. What the creator is incapable of is telling you how hard something is when you play it blind.

Everyone plays the level blind at first except the creator. "The creator cannot judge the difficulty" is always right.

A player has to go from being "blind" to being not-blind by playing the level. They have to learn every single obstacle. Oftentimes they have to die many many times in the process. This happens at the same time as they have to practice the actual skill of overcoming the obstacles that they already know about.

The creator never has to experience this, never can experience this. He already knows where everything is and what it will do and when it will appear. Even a player who has beaten a level several times is not as familiar it as the creator is.

[Yoshis_Fan]

Yeah, I see.
But seeing as I won't change the concept but only the difficulty you probably still won't like it after I've disarmed the level. Anyways, I don't care about it right now, I will just wait for people's criticism, once the new version of it is done and finally someone is able to make it.
(As for raocow, did you make it now or what? Or did you need massive tool abuse?)

[ano0maly]

By the way, why was the control setup glitched out?

[EiresWind]

Do you think I, or anyone else, cares about that right now? It's a necessary comparison.

It's more that I have to wonder what's being spoiled. Saying there's an auto-scrolling section is about one step removed from saying, "It's a grass level." It's like, the opposite of ruining details.

[DWebb32]

on a completely unrelated note to this entire conversation, how are you supposed to get the flower in 2-4 in the "main room" now, since it has been changed now? it the part after you get the key with what raocow calls "puddington" (at 9:57 in his video)

also after watching today's video i was kind of relieved as i had only remembered the bad parts of this hack throughout the month-long hiatus, but that level reminded me of how many clever ideas were used in so many ways, and that aside from difficulty concerns this hack truly is amazing.

[Oracle of Wuffing]

Also, feel free to call me Yoshis Fan, the underline between the words is there because the forum-software won't allow for spaces in names.

Wait, what?

*PUFF OF LOGIC*

[Giant Ninji]

I don't know what the above conversation was about, so oh well.

I'm glad to see we're back to this game again. I like that falling rocks section, though as usual the level feels a bit long.

[InsaneIntentions1]

That last part was depressing! Hopefully tomorrows vid is easier.

[Yoshis_Fan]

Wait, what?

*PUFF OF LOGIC*

Lol, no idea, I first tried to register here without the underline, but somehow there were problems, so I tried again with the underline. Then it worked...

[Sebby19]

Ouch... that was quite a burn from raocow. The level doesn't look too bad, and I would like to try it myself (on a GBA). But I guess the experience itself is quite different.

[kilon]

And here I was waiting for some rage.. but it was just disgruntled raocow we've seen often enough (MariAri, Hyper V wind stages and Vip 4-34 to name a few, of which at least MariAri and Vip4 where more ragey, I'd say)
Yes it was hard. Yes it was unfair. But it's an extra stage that's what you get. Maybe it should've been 6-E and move all extra stages back one world though.

[Sebby19]

Well, we can't really compare until we see the other extra stages.

[AUS]

thank you for ruining my saturday new super mario world two no really its appreciated

Ruining? If it's so bad, that playing it ruins your day, feel free to quit it. Nobody can force you to be masochistic.

Feels really hollow coming from the guy who made it.

Ok ok; now, forcefully rail against the level, and blame me, once more; then, let some balloons rise, dispense free kittens to everyone and we're all happy and well-tempered again (except those, who have cat hair allergy) and can go on living and try to handle that trauma.

Are you offended that people didn't like it? So what? Grow up a little.

[Yoshis_Fan]

Feels really hollow coming from the guy who made it.

Since when is it hollow to say the truth? If he suffers so badly from it...

Are you offended that people didn't like it? So what? Grow up a little.

To answer your question straightforward, no; my problem was the way of them telling me their disapproval. I'm perfectly okay with criticism and I'm hoping for criticism, but at least refrain from blatantly complaining, since it doesn't help anyone.

[DeadlyLampshade]

That was a sad video, I really hate seeing raocow so angry.

Yoshis Fan, I think the idea of the level was good, it was just really hard to tell when and where an obstacle would appear, and the level expects too high a percent of perfection from the player. I think the level should either have be a tad bit more generous with the Switches, reduce the amount of obstacles to worry about, or hint more at the obstacles (like lava bubbles and icicles) that are already there.

A very hard level that is unfair is never fun.

[Sebby19]

Maybe take out the podaboos that aren't necessary, and leave two that are behind some ice blocks.

I find it weird that items were disabled. Was it always like that? I mean, it would be nice if you accidently kill the necessary podaboss, but you still have a Super Red Watermelon to fall back on.

[Yikes]

Like most other romhacks that could potentially be good, this one suffers from the lack of playtesting too.

When I first watched the video of 1 - 6 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... y6my-0lxHs) I was like "Man, this hack is going to suck."

And people in the youtube-comments thought the same thing. Don't care how long this hack took to make when it wasn't tested at all.

[shdwdrgnix]

I think what you missed in the level was in another switch hole.