Let's play a bunch of Pit Hacks

[anonymousbl00dlust]

Ahoy! Welcome Mr. The Internet to my very first Let's Play!

A while back I mentioned that I had been working on completing a semi-pit kaizo hack without any tools. Understandably, this was met with some eye-rolls. Well, I am happy to say that I feel ready to finally kick this thing off for-serious. It may wear me down, but I will not surrender! I give you: Lets Play Springboards and Shells Without Tools!

For those of you unfamiliar with Springboard and Shells, it is a smw hack released by pennangbenny some time ago. As far as I'm concerned, it was one of the first hacks to venture into neo-kaizo difficulty. Pit-type hacks have long since surpassed its absurdity, but it's status as a pioneer remains constant.

As I state in the video, I'm only going to be playing the first level. This is going to be a very short mini-series: one "live" attempt and one silent completion for each half of the level. However, if this ends up being of any interest to anyone, I may continue playing other, equally difficult semi-pit hacks.

Enough Talk: Lets Play VIDEOGAMEZ!!!!!

Episode 1:Slow and Steady
Wherein I am stonewalled
By the hands of the final obstacle
And fail to edit videos competently

[Cup]

This is quite lovely.

[raocow]

VIDEO GAMEZ

[Argumentable]

It's no item abuse

[peteyboo]

Hyper 6 6th and 7th castles after this? :D (remember to start small!)

Oh and we can't forget the rain level...

[Marcaek]

6th and 7th castles aren't bad, nowhere near anything in world 8

[peteyboo]

Yeah but he said he couldn't actually play world 8 (I think), so of course I choose the hardest levels that aren't those.

If I really wanted to torture him, I'd say the left barrier tower, or the right normal stage. But if anything from world 8 would be "fun" to both watch and play, it'd be the rain stage.

[anonymousbl00dlust]

Thanks for the responses everyone! I'm not really used to this kind of thing so if you all have any constructive criticisms to make please do so. I want to make this entertaining to watch AND play :D !

Yeah but he said he couldn't actually play world 8 (I think), so of course I choose the hardest levels that aren't those.

If I really wanted to torture him, I'd say the left barrier tower, or the right normal stage. But if anything from world 8 would be "fun" to both watch and play, it'd be the rain stage.

It isn't that I cant per se, It's just that YOU already did so what's the point ?
If anything, I may try a few levels from Yet Another Mario World, although the physics in that game are really messed up. There's another 1-level hack called blood mountain that looks rather fun. The original version apparently had a midpoint and no boss at the end so I'll probably try it out.

It's no item abuse

Yeah. I'll let you call dibs on that one ;)

VIDEO GAMEZ

VIIIDDEEOO GAAAMMMEEZ

[peteyboo]

It isn't that I cant per se, It's just that YOU already did so what's the point ?

Because there's no other English-speaking LPer doing the game? I just want to see the hardest stages done with a understandable voice that isn't my own!

I could ask you to do the iceberg, but that would just be mean. <_<

Also, I thought you said there would be no way you could do world 8 and above while talking?

[anonymousbl00dlust]

It isn't that I cant per se, It's just that YOU already did so what's the point ?

Because there's no other English-speaking LPer doing the game? I just want to see the hardest stages done with a understandable voice that isn't my own!

I could ask you to do the iceberg, but that would just be mean. <_<

Also, I thought you said there would be no way you could do world 8 and above while talking?

I understand where you're coming from, but it seems more productive (and fun) to try out things no one has beaten yet without save-states. And yeah I did say that, but it doesn't mean I wouldn't record a play-through and commentate in post.

If enough people bother me about it I'll probably do it. It has to come after the final level of a2mt though. When I release that, people are going to demand to see a tooless run. I would argue that it is significantly harder than what I'm doing right now. It's built to be played by reflex rather than memorization, yet the jumps and timings are all very fast paced. It's not nearly as technical as stuff like springboards or s.mario, but it's long as hell and it CHANGES with each try. Also I outright refuse to make it easier.

yes.

[peteyboo]

Ah, so it's everything I hate about certain recent levels of Hyper 6 and none of what I like about certain other recent levels. Man won't that be fun to do?
You could also try out the level I made. It's totally vanilla, totally fair until the end, and totally horrible to boot! As a bonus, Alex hates me for suggesting it not in the request thread. <_<

[raocow]

Yeah dude just won't listen to me everytime I tell him that his master piece is going to be fun for nobody to play.

[anonymousbl00dlust]

a2mt final level complaints/discussion

I don't want to derail my own thread in 1 video flat, so I'll give my explanation as to why you shouldn't be worried via spoiler to minimize space, then hopefully we can move on from that.

what you have to understand is this: I'm not, and never have been an abusive level designer. I build the levels that I think would be fun to play, and further tune them so that other people will enjoy them as much as possible as well. while it's true that I make my designs very difficult and complicated, I think you can tell by my track record that I try to make that difficulty fun. I don't want to build a level that forces you to memorize ten billion things, nor do I want to build a level that requires impossible amounts of precision (a la springboards and shells). I build all my game's difficulty based on timing and reacting to what I believe are new, interesting ideas.

As a kid, I had the luxury of being forced to only play retro games, most of which were very hard. There were always games that had that one level that was "impossible" in my eyes, and I had respect for them. There was something mystical about the idea of "the hardest level ever", and the idea that "If I push myself, one day I will be the one to beat it". I will say it outright: The level I am building for a2mt is crafted under the assumption that most people will use some amount of savestates. I dont want my level to be beatable tooless to the majority of people, because I still hold respect for that Idea, and I was to bring back that sort of childhood awe to some of you.

Thing is, I have a counterbalance to this. I can't just make some impossible pit hack and call it a day, because when push comes to shove people want to complete the level, and I shouldn't deny them that right. That's why I chose to make this an endurance level. Played in short segments, anyone could beat the content I've been working on: its the fact that it's built to do on reaction, idealy one's first try, that makes the level so difficult. Therefore, players can make the level as easy or as hard as they want for themselves by how much they choose to savestate. However, only a brave few will be able to conquer it from beginning to end without dying. I want to make that something to respect.

Yes, I want people to be overwhelmed, panicking more than they ever had in a videogame before. However, that's just a mechanism for my true intention: for my players to have fun. I want to give you all an adrenaline rush for you to remember while playing my game. Forgive me if you disagree with my design philosophy, but I stand by it and I'm really proud of what I've made.

._.

:D

[Marcaek]

spoilered text

Hear hear! I'm glad there's someone else who stands by this.

[Ditocoaf]

Not to derail this topic further, but it IS the current topic of conversation...

anonymousbl00dlust: haven't you noticed, over all of raocow's let's plays, that his PREFERRED method of difficulty (during LPs, anyway) is the kind that you can overcome with practice and memorization? He tends to get the most frustrated when he CAN'T learn the level.

But then, let's leave that point aside, since I don't think A2MT is built only for raocow.
You describe your level as something that can't normally be played toolless, and as something that would be a mystical, crazy Ultimate Difficult Level that you'd aspire to one day beat. That doesn't sound fun as something thrown in as a PART of a hack. People who've beat every other part of that game toolless, are going to feel CHEATED that this level is some ultra-mythical-godly-intensity-level that can only be beaten by savescumming or by being the Ultimate Destined Romhack Hero. It sounds like you're making a level that would be served best as a super secret hidden away in a famous game, or something that you can only even DISCOVER by first overcoming the Seven Trials of SMW Romhacks.

I tend to agree with you that reaction-based gaming is the most fun gaming can get. It feels awesome when you feel like you've mastered the controls, the details, the physics, and now you have all those skills put to the test, instead of just memorizing a series of button pushes. BUT that sort of situation only works when it is the true, genuine culmination of the game thus far. It requires careful game design LEADING UP TO that point, where the player has been prepared for the challenge by practicing similar-but-easier obstacles, in a similar-but-easier environment, without it ever feeling repetitive or memorization-based. And even then, even after an entire game of reaction-based challenges training the player for even harder reaction-based challenges, the Big Final Difficult Test can't be too precise, or too random, or it'll just be frustrating and anticlimactic.
And, to be honest, I can't imagine any one of those details ever existing in a romhack. Especially not a collaboration romhack.

I fear that you've probably made something that will be nothing but frustrating to 98% of people, and it will be especially frustrating in context. It's good to stick to principles and all, but at some point you've got to cede some points to the context for which you're creating.


Sorry for ranting so long about this. I'd normally spend a while trying to prune and condense a post like this, making it more concise and comprehensible, but I'm a little too tipsy and tired to spend time considering all that. So... sorry! Hope you can filter through this gigantic mess and find something relevant. (never let your friends drive the internet while drunk)

[AUS]

Um, I don't think his level is going to be the only hard level in the game. I'm assuming amateurs are already going to be savescumming a bit.

[Jesuiscontent]

Um, I don't think his level is going to be the only hard level in the game. I'm assuming amateurs are already going to be savescumming a bit.

Yes, yes indeed

But hard levels aren't a bad thing anyway until a certain limit so yeah.

[ano0maly]

I agree with Dito. You want your level to be played fairly, design a fair level. Don't make another S Mario castle.

[Marcaek]

A level can be incredibly difficult without being unfair. The reason I enjoyed playing through Hyper 6 was that it forced me to learn new skills. It felt like playing Mario for the first time again.

Not saying H6 doesn't have it's unfair parts, it most certainly does

[AUS]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUq8i3Bl9qU&t=1m30s (the part of his commentary that I'm linking to here ends at 2:30)
Sure, raocow's talking about savestates here. But it still holds some water.

Plus, the few of you giving him crap over making a hard level because it's "too hard" and "too unfair" haven't even freakin' seen the level. You're basing your opinions here on like basically nothing. It's like he's telling you what's in the level, and you're disagreeing with him on that.

[anonymousbl00dlust]

we're done with the a2mt discussion here. don't post any more about it; I'm not going to respond because this isn't the place to. If you have a problem with me, my ego, or the way I do things, I'm totally open to having a private conversation.

Sorry for initiating this, I didn't expect it to become such a thing.

[AUS]

OK, fine, I'll discuss the actual LP.
The hack is terrible, and you didn't beat the level.

I have nothing to comment about either of those things. At least it was entertaining.

[CrispyMWHC]

That was an interesting video to watch. It's too bad you were doing so well in the beginning and the "bad" playing started.

[anonymousbl00dlust]

That was an interesting video to watch. It's too bad you were doing so well in the beginning and the "bad" playing started.

Thanks :D

Unfortunately I haven't been at the peak of my abilities for the past few days, so the "bad" playing has continued quite a bit. The main issue is that last obstacle... its WAY harder than anything else in the level, and I have to go through all the other obstacles to even attempt it.

(tenative; concerned in starting another argument) I think that it's a bad design decision to put the hardest obstacle at the end of the level. If you put it near the middle or beginning it won't aggrivate the player as much because they don't have to repeat the entire level just to get annother attempt in.

[Ditocoaf]

I think that it's a bad design decision to put the hardest obstacle at the end of the level. If you put it near the middle or beginning it won't aggrivate the player as much because they don't have to repeat the entire level just to get annother attempt in.

Oh, totally. As far as I'm concerned, the largest cause of frustration is time spent waiting to try the challenge you last died to, which is pretty much the challenge you actually care about. This usually means "re-doing" things you already "did" in order to get there, over and over. It's the same effect as in games with an overly-long "oops, you died, do you want to try again?" animation/menu/effect. Sometimes, I spend more of my time in those waiting to get back to the game than I spend actually attempting the obstacle!

Basically, if insta-death is a common thing in your game, the player should be given the chance to re-try the thing you just failed at with as little hullabaloo as possible. This usually involves smart checkpoint placement, and NEVER putting the biggest obstacles after tons and tons of easier stuff.

In today's GMCJam video, raocow was interested in seeing what came next, but he didn't want to re-play the first five minutes of the game AGAIN just to do that. It's the same sort of deal.