S. Mario: The S stands for "Shine"

[anonymousbl00dlust]

In case anyone forgot, the difficult curve of this game is complete nonsense.

Like I said, 3-1 and 3-2 are nothing compared to 2-castle. The final level is still pretty rough though.

[ultratowel112]

At that crazy spot (around 7:40, once before that, and I'm assuming several times after that), couldn't you make the bowser statue jump down and then spinjump across on him?

[S.N.N.]

Why are the Japanese so obsessed with those random numbered lists? I don't think there has been a single hack I've seen by them that doesn't have a message box with a set of rules/guidelines.

[AUS]

Maybe it's a meme somehow.

[heycallmeZe]

In case anyone forgot, the difficult curve of this game is complete nonsense.

I tend to think of it more as glitching out. Like the music!

[anonymousbl00dlust]

I'm just going to go ahead and say it: the entire point of a level with endurance-type difficulty is to play by reaction rather than learning and, well, actually endure. Using savestates on a level like SMK is stupid because the difficulty doesn't come from difficult jumps or muscle memory-type things. Savestating at the end of a certain area because "you don't die there anymore" is like the equivalent of a marathon runner saying "oh, well I only get tired at the end, so I'll just do the last hundred yards".

There's TONS of unfair and bad design decisions in s.mario, and I get how it would wear most people down. I'm not trying to hate/flame on raocow or anyone here, I'm just genuinely confused... I guess I just find it weird that there is a sudden outcry for savestates the moment we approach two of the most balanced levels in the entire game.

All that being said, I modified the final level myself to beat it savestateless, and I can't imagine any reasonable person trying to beat castle 3 toolless as it is now. I'm curious to see how things go tomorrow.

[ano0maly]

He was tired of the unevenness of the hack. The hack should've been more even with difficulty curve and balance to avoid that.

Also, I think endurance-based levels should not rely on having random generators at the end that make it hard to adapt.

[The Doctor]

Marathon levels only work if you're allowed to make mistakes and not be forced to perfect every inch of the level.

For example, let's say you have 5 HP (perfectly possible in SMW) and you're on a really long level. If you ever manage to perfect the first half, than you'll have a much easier time on the later parts. You won't feel like you wasted your time on the first half of the level because playing it well gives you an advantage (instead of being a requirement) for the rest of the level. Contra is a very good example of this.

EDITED TO ADD:

Basically any game that requires perfection should use very short levels or throw a hell of a lot of savepoints at you like in Super Meat Boy or I Wanna Be The Guy.

[raocow]

The Castle. Balanced. Really.

I'm going to say to you outright, dude, you are going to be really disapointed by tomorrow's video. Like, I'm sure I've beaten 'harder' before, but I am just not willing to go through something like 'that'.

Also: I don't care what is the 'Purpose' of a marathon-style level- replaying that early bit was already getting on my nerve because I just had to redo it again, and again, and again, and again, and again. It was boring. That's the problem. It was boring, and I had NO IDEA how long the rest was going to be, or how hard the rest was going to be because the difficulty in this game is all over the place. And it didn't feel 'epic' or anything because both level segments (at the time) had completely different feels with completely different aesthetics and atmospheres; they were two completely unrelated levels just joined at the hip arbritrarily.

If you enjoyed playing it, good for you, but I knew I wouldn't, and I'm tired of 'suffering' for this game.

[Hitotsumami]

Whatever the next game is, I'm sure it will be better.

[Marcaek]

The game itself isn't bad, it's just not really LP material.

[ano0maly]

The game itself isn't bad, it's just not really LP material.

I really like seeing cool gimmicks in raocow-style LPs. More vanilla games should be done by professional walkthrough makers, rather than casual LPers.

It's just that seeing the irritating "no X" gimmick several times, and also the random generators, can get the player tired. Random generators should be used in a context where you yourself are in a wide open sandbox mode, where you're free to be random. It doesn't work in precise platformer levels that this hack featured.

[raekuul]

Random generators should be used in a context where you yourself are in a wide open sandbox mode, where you're free to be random. It doesn't work in precise platformer levels that this hack featured.

*adds random generators to random levels in Vanilla SMW to see how they change the difficulty*

[peteyboo]

*adds random generators to random levels in Vanilla SMW to see how they change the difficulty*

Boo cloud in Tubular and Soda Lake. Fish in Valley Fortress. Now. (although Boo cloud isn't random)

[raekuul]

Boo cloud is random enough to mess with precision platforming and boss battles. Go watch raocow versus Black Plague again to see what I mean.

[anonymousbl00dlust]

Marathon levels only work if you're allowed to make mistakes and not be forced to perfect every inch of the level.

The last two levels didn't require perfection at all; that was kind of my point. Take a look at the levels surrounding smk 1 and 2. They're much shorter and a lot more demanding precision-wise.

While I hear what you're saying with health/extra lives, the marathon quality of it all doesn't loose it's legitimacy or quality just because that isn't implemented. It's a nice feature to have, yeah, but that's kind of irrelevant.

Also: I don't care what is the 'Purpose' of a marathon-style level- replaying that early bit was already getting on my nerve because I just had to redo it again, and again, and again, and again, and again. It was boring. That's the problem. It was boring, and I had NO IDEA how long the rest was going to be, or how hard the rest was going to be because the difficulty in this game is all over the place. And it didn't feel 'epic' or anything because both level segments (at the time) had completely different feels with completely different aesthetics and atmospheres; they were two completely unrelated levels just joined at the hip arbritrarily.

That makes a lot of sense. I get the boredom aspect, but it still seems strange to me that THIS is the breaking point. Like, after 2-castle and the spinjumping level... my objection wasn't to the fact that peeps drew a line, I'm just dumbfounded by the seemingly arbitrary place at which it was drawn.

The Castle. Balanced. Really.

Castle is hella unbalanced. I think I said earlier in the thread that I went into lunar magic to make the wind blocks visible when I played through it. I was pretty sure you were going to scrub through that level completely.

I know I'm coming across as conceited/judgmental but It's really not my goal here. Obviously it's your LP and your life and I have no say in what you do. I just find it odd how people react to some of these games and the discussions that end up occurring as a result are really interesting.

[Alice]

Also: I don't care what is the 'Purpose' of a marathon-style level- replaying that early bit was already getting on my nerve because I just had to redo it again, and again, and again, and again, and again. It was boring. That's the problem. It was boring, and I had NO IDEA how long the rest was going to be, or how hard the rest was going to be because the difficulty in this game is all over the place. And it didn't feel 'epic' or anything because both level segments (at the time) had completely different feels with completely different aesthetics and atmospheres; they were two completely unrelated levels just joined at the hip arbritrarily.

That makes a lot of sense. I get the boredom aspect, but it still seems strange to me that THIS is the breaking point. Like, after 2-castle and the spinjumping level... my objection wasn't to the fact that peeps drew a line, I'm just dumbfounded by the seemingly arbitrary place at which it was drawn.

Maybe it wasn't specifically this point that did it but everything over all stacking up? Just because this level was easier when compared to the last few doesn't mean it wasn't tedious and with things going how they have been already I'd guess raocow's 'breaking point' or whatever you'd like to call it is a bit lower than it might normally be.

[The Doctor]

While I hear what you're saying with health/extra lives, the marathon quality of it all doesn't loose it's legitimacy or quality just because that isn't implemented. It's a nice feature to have, yeah, but that's kind of irrelevant.

Yes, it does. The extra lives/health is the only aspect that makes a marathon level work.

The way the level was designed in S Mario is that once you beat it, that's it. It's just a waste of time to play now, but it forces you to play it every. Single. Time. You get no advantages for beating it fast or avoiding getting hit.

The ideal marathon level will be virtually impossible to beat perfectly, but the better you do (killing more enemies for powerups, beating the level faster for powerups, or not dying/getting hit to stockpile lives/health for later) the greater your chances at the later sections. I know I'm repeating myself here, but this is the key issue. You need a way to prevent the earlier parts of the level from becoming busywork when you're forced to replay them. It should never be used just to wear the player out through boredom.

[peteyboo]

The ideal marathon level will be virtually impossible to beat perfectly, but the better you do (killing more enemies for powerups, beating the level faster for powerups, or not dying/getting hit to stockpile lives/health for later) the greater your chances at the later sections. I know I'm repeating myself here, but this is the key issue. You need a way to prevent the earlier parts of the level from becoming busywork when you're forced to replay them. It should never be used just to wear the player out through boredom.

Yup.

For example, the first half of the castle I'm stuck on in Hyper 6 is terrible. The first room was fun for a while, but it's boring because you literally can only do it one way, and you have to do it the same way every single time. And then, when you finally get to the next room, everything you've done is gone because you're given a cape, equalizing every attempt at the first room (not that you can even do the first room as anything but Small Mario), and even then one hit equals death. It eventually got extremely tedious to have to do the entire first room over and over again just to die within five seconds of the second room, so I decided to just skip that. And then the second room decided that it wasn't going to be fun at all, so yeah...

But the second half of the entire castle is actually quite fun! You're given a challenge that can easily be figured out, and the better you do in the first room, the better equipped you are to deal with the rest, although a random Boo circle right at the beginning basically means "get here with at least one powerup or get lucky" but whatever. And that's why I'm going to do it without tools, no matter how long it takes.

[anonymousbl00dlust]

While I hear what you're saying with health/extra lives, the marathon quality of it all doesn't loose it's legitimacy or quality just because that isn't implemented. It's a nice feature to have, yeah, but that's kind of irrelevant.

Yes, it does. The extra lives/health is the only aspect that makes a marathon level work.

The way the level was designed in S Mario is that once you beat it, that's it. It's just a waste of time to play now, but it forces you to play it every. Single. Time. You get no advantages for beating it fast or avoiding getting hit.

The ideal marathon level will be virtually impossible to beat perfectly, but the better you do (killing more enemies for powerups, beating the level faster for powerups, or not dying/getting hit to stockpile lives/health for later) the greater your chances at the later sections. I know I'm repeating myself here, but this is the key issue. You need a way to prevent the earlier parts of the level from becoming busywork when you're forced to replay them. It should never be used just to wear the player out through boredom.

I don't know what games you played as a kid, but as far as I'm concerned, this is the ultimate marathon level, and it will never be surpassed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNJGt8_B188&t=1m55s

not only is the machine hella long compared to any other level in the game, the auto-scroll insta-kills you and the alien enemies deplete your health so fast it might as well be insta-kill anyways. To top it all off if you die in the extremely difficult boss fight that follows, you have to start the machine over again.

It sounds tedious when you describe it that way, but ask anyone who has ever played ecco the dolphin through to completion and they'll tell you they were clenching their controllers, hands shaking the entire time. Thats because you could never hope to get through the endgame by "learning the level", as raocow often does. You legitimately have to react to everything that comes at you. The sheer length of the thing, and the penalty of restarting made any other strategy too impractical to implement.

So yeah, the game that holds the crown in my mind not only does no with a 1-hit endurance level, but with said endurance level being the ONLY 1-hit level in the game.

EDIT: I'm aware that the dude in the video HAS memorized the whole thing, but take note that I pulled that video from a speedrun, so that's not really a surprise. ...you're not expected to do it that way.

[peteyboo]

That level looked kind of stupid, what with the autoscrolling forcing you to go into dead ends, only to back out at the last second. It shouldn't have to do that to do the whole "hand sweating and shaking" thing.

[anonymousbl00dlust]

That level looked kind of stupid, what with the autoscrolling forcing you to go into dead ends, only to back out at the last second. It shouldn't have to do that to do the whole "hand sweating and shaking" thing.

ecco the dolphin is essentially "psychological warfare: the game", and it does it's job well. That series is the master of panic.

It really has to be played to be understood, but that goes for any good marathon level so it's hard to really make my point effectively. I was kind of just hoping some of you had played it before.

...Its the best example I can give, what can I say.

[AUS]

Marathon levels? Hmm. The final level of Kid Chameleon?
Although I think in that game it's justified because it's the final level, and also I find it fun instead of boring.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbW5EPWUo4M
EDIT: I know it's less than three minutes long, but do know you could easily die at any moment in this level. xD

[cozyduck]

Ecco the dolphin discussion

I just want to add that, as someone who finished the Ecco games as well, I don't like the machine at all.
My personal experience is that it has several places where foreknowledge is necessary, as the level changes autoscrolling direction in very awkward places. I don't dislike the marathon aspect, but I disagree with anonymousbl00dlust's evaluation, because it's a mostly boring, easy level with several places that WILL take you off guard, but only once.

[anonymousbl00dlust]

Ecco the dolphin discussion

I just want to add that, as someone who finished the Ecco games as well, I don't like the machine at all.
My personal experience is that it has several places where foreknowledge is necessary, as the level changes autoscrolling direction in very awkward places. I don't dislike the marathon aspect, but I disagree with anonymousbl00dlust's evaluation, because it's a mostly boring, easy level with several places that WILL take you off guard, but only once.

if what you are saying is true and you didn't use passwords for the boss then your reaction skills are better than mine, friend. everyone I've talked to about that game seems to share a similar fear for that level...

perhaps you found the autoscrolling levels in ecco 2 more difficult?