raocow's talkhaus

Am I the only one thinking that the overall uniqueness and fun of the levels is going to decrease over the course of the last 15-20 levels? If you think about it, one of the key factors of getting a high score was to make it sort of close to the originals, and SMW didn't exactly have the best levels ever.

Note that I've played most of the entries for this contest, and barring a few exceptions(ycz's level among others), not all of them were stellar, but they resembled the originals quite well.

Out of all the levels in today's video I feel like the one in 54th place should've scored a lot better.

Muncher wrote:Am I the only one thinking that the overall uniqueness and fun of the levels is going to decrease over the course of the last 15-20 levels? If you think about it, one of the key factors of getting a high score was to make it sort of close to the originals, and SMW didn't exactly have the best levels ever.

Note that I've played most of the entries for this contest, and barring a few exceptions(ycz's level among others), not all of them were stellar, but they resembled the originals quite well.

SMW had a lot of unique levels, so uniqueness doesn't have to be avoided. I haven't played the levels though, so I don't know how things will go in this contest.

In hearing raocow's question in today's video as to why some levels are either fun challenges or frustrating demands, I thought I should write down my thoughts here:

1. Monotony - Just looking at the challenges presented in the series thus far does indeed make the levels seem kind of dull, mostly because what challenge is presented in each level is essentially the same thing done one hundred times in succession with pretty much no margin of error nor a break for a breather. What differentiates some of the more fun challenges is that why they may in theory be the same things (albeit, hopefully using them in new ways), they're disguised by using new elements and ideas for the player to play with. The idea still may simply being to get from A to B whilst jumping precisely, but doing so with a larger variety of platforms and obstacles will make the challenge seem fresher, when in theory, it actually isn't.

2. Making a Challenge a Puzzle - Nothing can be more boring than playing the 1000th level with the same precise platforming elements that you know how to do despite being difficult. A good challenge seems to be one that tests the players skill in new and exciting ways, be it through interactions which new blocks or sprites, or through unique ideas with what already exists, the latter possibly more appreciated by SMW veterans. Adding a unique twist to challenges make them not only a challenge of skill but a challenge of the mind, and as seen with puzzle games, the player feels relief, if not a little smart, by figuring out what they really had to do. It doesn't have to be anything super hard, but anything that requires a little more brain power than holding right and slapping A every now and again is something which is a step closer to a better challenge. Of course, using the SMW context, just grabbing a P switch from elsewhere and slapping it down isn't really a puzzle, it's being a postman.

3. Relief - What is incredibly evident throughout this series thus far is that all challenges offer nothing to really rest upon. The best you would expect is a midpoint or a mushroom, and even then they appear to be more of a curse than a blessing. Rewards and rests are great ways to allow players to regain their energy and hope which may have been lost in their previous struggles. A screen transition every now and again is nice too, it definitely leaves a feeling of progression which is lost in a 1F screen-long level which essentially has the same thing copied and pasted in monotonous ways. They say that in literature, relief from tension brings about a greater reaction, I imagine the same is true for this context, just a few light reliefs instead of a constant barrage of demanding torture would have brought about a greater player reaction.

Just a gathering on my findings over the last three years. I'm sure there's some things which I'm forgetting, or points that could be argued over, but from what I've seen and learned from my own experiences, this is what I felt I had to write down on the matter.

I would've scored Underway and Wormer's entries (much) lower than it did for the reasons of blatant Big Mario Discrimination, over-reliance on precision jumping, and just too long to be a simple castle room.

I think the key point in understanding why you didn't have fun with those levels in particular is a phrase you uttered very often: they were silly.

Silly as in "okay are you seriously demanding THAT level or precision". What it boils down to is - do you feel that the challenge is FAIR, or do you think it is too much? If it goes beyond the realm of fairness, insane jump after insane jump or fireball buzzsaw timing stuff you only have one shot at, solely dependant on what you, at the moment playing, feel to be fair, it ceases to be fun.

The perfect difficulty is where you can always see okay, it's damn hard, but whenever you fuck up, it's very decidedly, obviously, clearly only your fault. I'm playing Devil May Cry 4 at the moment, those fights against Dante are HARD, and he pulls out combos and slashes and stuff faster than I can follow him, but I know hey wait a second, if I get CAUGHT in the combo, I already screwed up. That's fair. Next time I gotta dodge better.

Those countless chain jumps? Fuck up once, and you know you didn't hit the right pixel or the perfect height, this is of course depending on your input but damn, does it FEEL like it's just because the level is silly.

Simon

That one guy clearly stole the idea of the upside-down pillar background from me, and I will not be persuaded otherwise.

re: nintendo sanctioned bullet bill jumping, in New Super Mario Bros Wii one or two star coins require bullet bill jumps to get.

Bullet bill hopping isn't that crazy when you think about it, is it?

when I played the Marios as a young kid, I couldn't imagine ever managing to do something as crazy as jumping over the bullets.
But it's really not that hard, parakoopa hopping is used in SMW as well.

Muncher wrote:Am I the only one thinking that the overall uniqueness and fun of the levels is going to decrease over the course of the last 15-20 levels? If you think about it, one of the key factors of getting a high score was to make it sort of close to the originals, and SMW didn't exactly have the best levels ever.

(spoilers???) The first place level in particular is pretty underwhelming, so I'm trying to imagine how this series can go about not ending on an anticlimactic note!

Yes raocow, OCremix still exsists, and is stonger than ever. There is awesome Mario music based on the castle levels (especially SMW castle/fortress)

^^
http://youtu.be/zAuqowo5vA4

Fapnoob wrote:^^
http://youtu.be/zAuqowo5vA4

THAT... is AMAZING! O_O

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About the contest thingie here... Funny-name-man seemed to have gotten the point quite well; the megaspike level stayed focused, and was challenging without overdoing it or... under-doing it. The rest had quite some issues, even compared to the previous two days' levels.

In all honesty... I'd say the seizure level looked like a JOKE ENTRY. An honest attempt to get last place. I mean look at it:
-Headache-inducing, nauseating palette-flopping.
-An assholish twist down the spikes
-A self-admitted "trolling" with an INVISIBLE WALL for no functional reason other than to troll
-A very deliberate trap at the end in case you forgot the spring board (I guess you CAN spin-jump off the spike ball, but the difficulty of calculating it makes for an assholism in and of itself, doesn't count as a real solution)
-Text boxes that basically say "I hOpE i WiN!" and "LOL player u got trolled!"

But, since Judgeman is all like "Ranking, what's that?", a level that does its absolute damndest to get last place doesn't even get put in its rightful slot.

I was already trying to convince myself not to pay attention to the rankings, but this level has exposed what little of my doubts remained, and forced me to let go. I'm done now, the rank numbers not only matter little... they matter NONE.

joke entry or not, it was a pretty trolling level.
But I can't really judge that, since I hardly recognized anything in the video

Paralars wrote:joke entry or not, it was a pretty trolling level.
But I can't really judge that, since I hardly recognized anything in the video

I recognized lots of things! There was red, yellow, green, blue, gray, orange, a sort of salmon-y...

Bullet spam is the best level design ever

The level creator thinks that just putting spikes everywhere makes it fun.

P-Switches out of reasonable reach! YaY!

Unambiguous sprite graphics? Who needs them?

Bad obstacle is bad.

I imagine that level is what an epileptic's hell looks like (and judging by the framerate, what a video encoding programmer's hell looks like too)

That flashing level reminded me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE_YQLN4iCo

I read all the meme literature on Tommy Wiseau and I still don't get why he was in that level. My score? 0 points.

*Obligitary "The Room" quote here*

I think the youtube comments have beaten that to death already.

hmmm no Idea why they put him there apart from giving you the ability to say theres the room hurr durr
The muncher kill area was kinda funny, the rest of the level was kinda cool, to be honest I was all oh boy a muncher run T__T but I did like it
last one Shouldv'e extended the ice room instead its hardly a room if its outside the castle is it?

The last one's idea is "The last room is really the outside of the castle", I think.

What was up with the comments?

So something that's kind of been bugging me for a while (and maybe already discussed whatevs), but more so as we go along, is...why did so many people either (1) make a full level rather than a room and/or (2) miss the point of being like SMW's rooms (mostly vanilla, unedited pallets, etc)?

Did they see "Bowser Room Contest" and just recall how every rom hack bowser castle has a billion different "rooms" that are actually full-on levels or what

Now that you mention it, why was SMW's Bowser Castle itself so long? You have to clear the two rooms, the Back Door portion and the Bowser fight in one go. I found that reasonable.

What I don't understand is how if you go the Back Door route, there's a midpoint in the Ninji room. It makes sense if it was moved to the normal castle route.