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New SMWC contest thingy: the 9th Door: the series.

this is the place where lps are being talked about. it's important to talk about games being played on the internet.
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Re: New SMWC contest thingy: the 9th Door: the series.

Postby S.N.N. » 7 years ago

raocow wrote:I really like doing contest series because it focuses on design, and I like all the design talk that it brings out in people. The fact that the contest is really focused lets us be really nitpicky when considering things, and I think that is really fun.
Different perspectives then I guess. People tend to bitch about everything they can during these, especially how they were judged (rather than actually calling out the levels themselves for sucking). As such, it becomes almost tiring from my point of view. If I or any other judge was 100% correct and professional at reviewing and playing hacks/other things, we wouldn't be screwing around in the ROM hacking scene.

But I digress. I imagine tomorrow's video will bring out more of the "why was level X higher than level Y" since there is one level which is particularly .. difficult.

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Re: New SMWC contest thingy: the 9th Door: the series.

Postby MrDeePay » 7 years ago

At this point, I would just straight out disable comments and tell them to take any grievance about a level entry straight to the forum as I'm sure it'll just be them complaining about things based on what raocow shows/how well he plays through it. I expect that they'll just continue with this for days and weeks to come in any case.

Though if it was related to raocow (or even something not related to SMWC at all), they'd just try to downplay it or bat a blind eye.

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Re: New SMWC contest thingy: the 9th Door: the series.

Postby limepie20 » 7 years ago

S.N.N. wrote:But I digress. I imagine tomorrow's video will bring out more of the "why was level X higher than level Y" since there is one level which is particularly .. difficult.
I don't get why people care; if it sucked, it sucked.
Just lump all the 11-20, 21-30, etc. together and have only the top ten levels get their own number.
MrDeePay wrote:At this point, I would just straight out disable comments...
But they're funny.

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Re: New SMWC contest thingy: the 9th Door: the series.

Postby ZaCloud » 7 years ago

S.N.N. wrote:Why do people even consider 78th "that high"? It's not even a good score at all. It's literally like, sixth last place
Scores are scores. If position number doesn't matter, then why even have scores at all? Why not just have a big lump of "These were good" "These were ok" and "These sucked"?

To a lot of people, the position earned for each effort matters. If exact lower positions don't make a difference just because they're lower positions, then what significance would even 3rd, 2nd, and 1st place have? The exact placement should be just as significant for low numbers as it is for high numbers.

The numbers in order should sum up "This one's better than that one". If that doesn't work, then there's something wrong with the judging, and that makes the whole thing pointless.

So it IS very important to a lot of people, because that's the entire point of a contest. Otherwise, why bother with ranking at all?

I know, there will always be disagreements since opinions vary, and that's what makes the world interesting. But, let's face it, a LOT of the lower entries played a LOT more like official Mario levels than some that placed higher, and score-wise, that was supposed to be the whole point.
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Re: New SMWC contest thingy: the 9th Door: the series.

Postby Ometeotl » 7 years ago

MrDeePay wrote:At this point, I would just straight out disable comments and tell them to take any grievance about a level entry straight to the forum as I'm sure it'll just be them complaining about things based on what raocow shows/how well he plays through it. I expect that they'll just continue with this for days and weeks to come in any case.

Though if it was related to raocow (or even something not related to SMWC at all), they'd just try to downplay it or bat a blind eye.
You seem bitter.

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Re: New SMWC contest thingy: the 9th Door: the series.

Postby S.N.N. » 7 years ago

ZaCloud wrote:Scores are scores. If position number doesn't matter, then why even have scores at all? Why not just have a big lump of "These were good" "These were ok" and "These sucked"?
It's kind of sad, because honestly, I find this is a great idea. When you get as many entries as a contest on SMWC (80 - 100), it becomes very difficult to rank them 100% perfectly, as I'm sure people have noticed. I'm sure something like a top ten would be possible, but throwing the rest of them into various groups ("good" "mediocre" "bad") might make a lot of people lay off on the "OH LORDY THIS BAD LEVEL RANKED A DECIMAL POINT HIGHER THAN THIS BAD LEVEL".

People would need to put themselves into the perspective of someone playing and scoring the levels for a bit. It may seem rather trivial putting the levels in the perfect order, but there are more often than not exceptions which slide through. This might become more apparent towards the middle-ground of the contest since about 40 entries are pretty much the same in quality with some exceptions in each. How deep do you have to go into a level to determine whether X is better than Y? Level design critiquing becomes extremely subjective in cases like that. I'm sure everyone can agree on that, at least.

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Re: New SMWC contest thingy: the 9th Door: the series.

Postby ano0maly » 7 years ago

Isn't the score (reflecting quality) of the work more important than the ranking? Even a dead last place that is decent would get enough points; a terrible submission would get low points even if there are 100 worse submissions.

I think something should be done to encourage looking at each work on its own rather than just ranking them.
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Re: New SMWC contest thingy: the 9th Door: the series.

Postby morsel/morceau » 7 years ago

I know the interpretation of the contest rules basically boils down to 'make a castle room that could take the place of any of the original eight', but one of the most interesting things for me will be the attempts at making a ninth area that fits into the existing scheme of Bowser's Castle.

And still no Cirno - what the christ?
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Re: New SMWC contest thingy: the 9th Door: the series.

Postby Tatrion » 7 years ago

My opinion on today's levels:

77th LuigiPikachu: I think if he just cut one room or the other, he would've done a lot better. Personally I liked the way it graphically looked as well with the multiple colors of blue stone and the choice to use a no-scroll BG. The way it's designed reminds me of door 8 (The chuck room).

76th notgoodwithusernames: You can tell a good amount of polish went into the design to make everything just barely possible. Of course the sheer difficulty makes it pretty unsuitable for anything you'd find in vanilla SMW which is probably where most of the points were lost. It'd be brilliant in any kind of hardtype hack, however.

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Re: New SMWC contest thingy: the 9th Door: the series.

Postby Sebby19 » 7 years ago

Wow, it sounded like raocow just went backward on his chair at the end.
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Re: New SMWC contest thingy: the 9th Door: the series.

Postby S.N.N. » 7 years ago

NGWU designed two levels for SMWCP2 (both at opposite ends of the spectrum - one in world 1, and one in world 8), and the difficulty of both is judged rather well. At the very least, he IS a competent designer when he's not trying to stuff pixel perfect jumps down one's throat.

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Re: New SMWC contest thingy: the 9th Door: the series.

Postby megamario » 7 years ago

So at what point do we get people that stick to a single room?
Also to a not silly degree of difficulty level

a chart would be fine

also can raocow judge levels for the next contest; serious analysis raocow is in my top 3 raocows
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Re: New SMWC contest thingy: the 9th Door: the series.

Postby Slit08 » 7 years ago

Just wanted to ask if there will be a B-project since Nitroid has been finished now. It would be nice for those who are not really in this contest thingy...
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Re: New SMWC contest thingy: the 9th Door: the series.

Postby megamario » 7 years ago

Slit08 wrote:Just wanted to ask if there will be a B-project since Nitroid has been finished now. It would be nice for those who are not really in this contest thingy...
Nitori isn't finished. raocow still needs to actually beat Utsuho and then there's world 5 which ramps up the difficulty and length
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Re: New SMWC contest thingy: the 9th Door: the series.

Postby The Doctor » 7 years ago

Slit08 wrote:Just wanted to ask if there will be a B-project since Nitroid has been finished now. It would be nice for those who are not really in this contest thingy...
He didn't even beat the boss he was on. Since when is not beating a boss equal to finished?

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Re: New SMWC contest thingy: the 9th Door: the series.

Postby ano0maly » 7 years ago

The Doctor wrote:
He didn't even beat the boss he was on. Since when is not beating a boss equal to finished?
MariAri?

Seriously though, it's not finished yet, and raocow has said so in comments/description every day since.
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Re: New SMWC contest thingy: the 9th Door: the series.

Postby raocow » 7 years ago

Yeah I'm just taking a little break.

Also I'm looking foward to when I can end a contest video not feeling legit angry.
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Re: New SMWC contest thingy: the 9th Door: the series.

Postby megamario » 7 years ago

raocow wrote:Yeah I'm just taking a little break.

Also I'm looking foward to when I can end a contest video not feeling legit angry.
Will it be the day you rage quit 75 - 11 and skip straight to the top 10?
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Re: New SMWC contest thingy: the 9th Door: the series.

Postby McGack » 7 years ago

Its kinda amazing that even this far down none of the muncher plants are in completely ridiculous positions, though I think if LuigiPikachu had stuck with the ice part it would have been better, I mean think of the small amount of ice levels in the original game, having it as a gimmick in bowser's castle would have been good

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Re: New SMWC contest thingy: the 9th Door: the series.

Postby Argumentable » 7 years ago

I bet if you just took out the layer 3 smasher that last room would've shot way up in rankings

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Re: New SMWC contest thingy: the 9th Door: the series.

Postby limepie20 » 7 years ago

I like notgoodwithusernames' level because the difficulty was pretty cool. It was still hard but I like it when people can design fair hard levels.
S.N.N. wrote:NGWU designed two levels for SMWCP2 (both at opposite ends of the spectrum - one in world 1, and one in world 8), and the difficulty of both is judged rather well. At the very least, he IS a competent designer when he's not trying to stuff pixel perfect jumps down one's throat.
Oh I thought hard levels were all he made because that's what he tried to get into a2mt and didn't do much after that.

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Re: New SMWC contest thingy: the 9th Door: the series.

Postby notgoodwithusernames » 7 years ago

I'm somewhat surprise that the level was that hard for people. I mean I can get though it without any trouble. Maybe if I don't test the level so much with the slightest of change, like moving a sprite over a tile, I could of had a better chance of making it higher in the contest. Due of me getting so used to the level. However, I did like how the level turned out though because it was the first time I ever used the layer 3 smasher. And how the ceiling is set up in a way that you know where the smasher is going to hit. Just felt like that I accomplished something, even though it wasn't meant to be a kaizo type level.
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Re: New SMWC contest thingy: the 9th Door: the series.

Postby raocow » 7 years ago

The thing with your level is that it is entirely based on knowing what to do when. Of course it's going to be easy for you because you, well, know what to do, and when, haha.

For people who have yet to gain this knowledge, it's pretty much 100% learning by mistakes, and every mistake is a garanteed death. That is what makes it so difficult, it's that there is zero let. Zero room for mistakes. If you know what to do, yeah, it's super doable. But gaining that knowledge is very, very difficult.
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Re: New SMWC contest thingy: the 9th Door: the series.

Postby ano0maly » 7 years ago

Indeed. I could tell that level 76th keeps you on your toes in a really frustrating way because you are constantly at risk and requiring reflexes. Maybe you could've added some powerups and a little bit of space somewhere in the level to give Mario a moment to rest.
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Re: New SMWC contest thingy: the 9th Door: the series.

Postby S.N.N. » 7 years ago

One comment I read on YouTube said that the level would have probably scored quite a bit higher if the smasher was removed. I agree with this - if both the smasher and the beginning were dealt with, the level itself would have been much less of a chore and a lot less difficult to beat. It's certainly doable now (took me 7 tries or so), but the smasher is a case of complete overkill.


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