(shouting)

Killer7 - 獅子 - "Harman, the world won't change. All it does is turn. Now, let's dance."

this is the place where lps are being talked about. it's important to talk about games being played on the internet.
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Re: Killer7 - 笑顔 - "Use your eyes to decipher how the system works, and then, seek out the real enemies."

Post by EllenHouraisan »

The pigeon messages and the school setting of this chapter make the story seem like it was cooked up in some teenager's head. Like, some classmate pissed them off and they are like "yeah? I'm gonna call the Smiths to kill you, ever heard of them???" and they are all just his edgy OCs. Would explain a lot about the game if that was the case, honestly. XD

Also, game's gone full-on Resident Evil with this one.
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Re: Killer7 - 笑顔 - "Use your eyes to decipher how the system works, and then, seek out the real enemies."

Post by Grounder »

join us next time when the killer7 shoot every locker in the school
Why don't you eat me?

I am perfectly tasty...

AND I'LL STEAL YOUR SOUL! :twisted:

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strongbadman
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Re: Killer7 - 笑顔 - "Use your eyes to decipher how the system works, and then, seek out the real enemies."

Post by strongbadman »

EllenHouraisan wrote: 2 years ago The pigeon messages and the school setting of this chapter make the story seem like it was cooked up in some teenager's head. Like, some classmate pissed them off and they are like "yeah? I'm gonna call the Smiths to kill you, ever heard of them???" and they are all just his edgy OCs. Would explain a lot about the game if that was the case, honestly. XD

Also, game's gone full-on Resident Evil with this one.
That was Johnny gagnon, who is going to kill Emir for not paying him $100 dollars for gathering info on the killer 7
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Catabo
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Re: Killer7 - 笑顔 - "Use your eyes to decipher how the system works, and then, seek out the real enemies."

Post by Catabo »

the brave and the wold.png
the brave and the wold.png (48.61 KiB) Viewed 1136 times
I'm not really sure whether or not this Engrish is intentional and i love that.
Hi YouTube peeps! Want a cozier, chiller community that actually feels like a discussion instead of shouting into an endless void?
Consider posting on the talkhaus too! :catplanet:
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Re: Killer7 - 笑顔 - "I heard the new models have already arrived. This is the final confrontation."

Post by thatguyif »

EllenHouraisan wrote: 2 years ago The pigeon messages and the school setting of this chapter make the story seem like it was cooked up in some teenager's head. Like, some classmate pissed them off and they are like "yeah? I'm gonna call the Smiths to kill you, ever heard of them???" and they are all just his edgy OCs. Would explain a lot about the game if that was the case, honestly. XD

Also, game's gone full-on Resident Evil with this one.
strongbadman wrote: 2 years ago That was Johnny gagnon, who is going to kill Emir for not paying him $100 dollars for gathering info on the killer 7
Yeah...this is the final letter from Johnny Boy. It is quite interesting though: It mentions Harman laughing and Samantha in her maid outfit. That only happens when the lights are off. Not to mention Samantha refers to herself as Samantha Smith after killing off Johnny. That's an oddity. Something doesn't add up here...

In the name of Harman...
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Re: Killer7 - 笑顔 - "I heard the new models have already arrived. This is the final confrontation."

Post by strongbadman »

So, good news! In the school, there's no cap on the blood you can earn! If you wanted to mad out your characters, you could do so here.

Bad news! As you've seen, pretty much all the respawning enemies are Broken Smiles. Universally agreed to be the hardest enemy in the game, certainly the hardest one to get blood from. There's also really no need to max out your characters, not on the difficulty you're playing or on deadly. You've already seen that bosses are rarely straightforward enough to benefit from super high power (and in fact most of them have a predetermined number of hits or power otherwise doesn't matter), same deal with critical, waver only helps so much, you're not using invisibility, etc.

You might have noticed that after his monster transformation Mask no longer needs to reload. His fire rate is about the same as Kevin's now, and he's incredibly powerful, at the expense of not getting any blood.
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Re: Killer7 - 笑顔 - "Wait a minute...This can't be right...That's over 50 years ago..."

Post by thatguyif »

So this is where Suda51 enters the realm of the weird with American politics.

He has a rudimentary understanding of the electoral college system, but a very twisted one. Worth noting: Washington State has less electors in the electoral college than this game suggests. In the year 2005, the year this game was published, it had 11 electors. In 2011, the year this game was set, it had 12. (Number of electors is determined every 10 years by the census.) There's no state that currently has 24 electors. The last that did was Illinois in the 1980s. (It will have 19 in the next election.) Moreover, 24 electors is a drop in the bucket: There are 538 electors in the electoral college. 24 is less than 5% of the electors. A state that would fit the 10% kingmaker would be California, which had 55 electors over the last 2 decades (54 starting in 2024), but there the whole argument degrades, given California's near-consistent partisan voting record of the last 30 years. But then it is to be expected of a Japanese man, living in a one-party state in all but name.

Still, he's onto something here. One of the things Travis hints at is that electors can be manipulated, and there is some truth to that statement: Based on the original framework of the Constitution, the electors are expected to vote for the candidate of their choice, independent of those who elected them. But the reality has been that the electors serve essentially as agents of whoever elects them, be it the state legislatures (in the early days) or the popular vote (now). Still, in recent years (especially after the last election), there's been a growing movement to either restore the power of the elector to how it was originally intended, or have the state legislatures reclaim some power over the appointment of the electors. In both of these, it is not hard to conclude that such actions would make electors far more prone to manipulation by outside forces. Forces...like Matsuken.

Another thing worth noting, especially given the bit about the so-called "Yakumo Party" in today's video: I think another thing that Suda51 references with the Yakumo is the United States Constitution itself. Not so much the document but the abstract: Since probably the Civil War, if not the early 20th century, the Constitution has gained a religious significance in American culture. It is revered to such a degree that expressing the notion of replacing it, with its various flaws (of which there are too many), is considered treason/sinful, and thus limited to the fringes of American society. Even the left rarely speaks of it outside academia. Where divisions lie tend to involve interpretations of the document, not unlike religious disputes. The idea that it is merely a document that can be replaced does not even enter people's minds. Most foreigners, when they learn some basic understanding of American civics, tend to identify this religious worship very quickly.

In the name of Harman...
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Re: Killer7 - 笑顔 - "This gun holds 7 bullets. I'm a professional. You can't fool me old man."

Post by thatguyif »

Surprised you beat Galactic Tomahawk Smile with just Con. It's not really said how to beat him, but the best method is full power on him: Collateral Shot with Dan, Focus Shot/Finishing Move with MASK. Good on you, regardless.

And ah yes, this scene, which was incredibly funny/amazing. raocow just being condescending to the dead Secretary of Education (that's what Keane was) for being chauvinistic was what took the cake. Blink-and-you'll-miss-it detail, but the revolver is indeed a 7-shot revolver, as evidenced by the arrangement of the chambers. By my guess...it would likely be a Smith & Wesson 686P, a 7-shot variant of the 686, given the year the game was released and the shape of the revolver. (S&W did release some new 7-shots in 2005, the 619 and 620, but I doubt Suda51 or Grasshopper knew of them, so they likely referenced the 686P, which had been on the market for nearly 10 years at that point).

Speaking of guns...we haven't really talked about them. Each persona's gun/weapon is an actual real-life gun...but more interestingly, they're all named after indie/alternative rock songs from the 1980s and 1990s. Let's go over them, shall we?

Harman Smith's gun is an anti-materiel rifle, likely the Barrett M82/M107. Its name is GLIDER. The name is probably the most obscure of the bunch, but it's a song from the eponymous EP by Japanese game developer favorite My Bloody Valentine, which also featured the phenomenal "Soon" that would later appear on Loveless. The title itself is a reference to guitarist Kevin Shields' unique guitar-playing technique, aka glide guitar:


Garcian Smith's gun is a SIG P230 pistol with a silencer attachment. Its name is ELECTROLITE. Another obscure-ish song being referenced, this one of the minor singles off REM's New Adventures in Hi-Fi. A folk-ish song about the end of the 20th century:


Dan Smith's first gun is a Colt .357 revolver, likely a Colt King Python. Its name is HANDSOME DEVIL. The song referenced is a classic by The Smiths, albeit a fascinating one: A complete demonstration of social ineptitude when it comes to matters of sexuality, done to a very rompy rock piece. Lead singer and leading curmudgeon Morrissey was certainly speaking about himself in that way, but still, many in the talkhaus would probably relate to this song:


(If you'll allow me a moment of self-indulgence, below is a cover by Portland indie act Parenthetical Girls, which I think captures the manic paranoia of the lyrics better)


KAEDE's gun is an AMT Hardballer pistol with a scope attachment. Its name is CONNECTION. Perhaps fittingly, the song referenced is probably the most recognizable song by Elastica, a Britpop/alt-rock band fronted by Justine Frischmann. Only song of this bunch from a woman-fronted band:


Kevin's weapon is the throwing knife. The shape of the knife suggests it's a karambit, a type of knife that originated from Indonesia. Though with that said, the choice of a karambit is unusual, since even in its weaponized form for self-defense or the Malay sport of pencak silat, it's not used for throwing. Still, its name of DEBASER may justify its form. One of the Pixies' biggest singles, Debaser references Luis Buñuel/Salvador Dali's short film Un chien andalou extensively, including its graphic scene of slicing up an animal's eyeball. If one were to do such a heinous act, you would likely use a knife similar to Kevin's, like a bird beak knife:


Coyote's gun is a heavily modified Enfield Mk II revolver, featuring a heavily reinforced barrel. Its name is FREAK SCENE. It was the first single by Dinosaur Jr., and is probably one of their most recognizable songs:


Con's guns are dual automatic pistols. While not specified anywhere, the square hammerless shape of the receiver makes it likely that they're Glocks. Their collective name is DISARM. Easily the most recognizable song reference of the bunch, since it is one of the biggest singles by the Smashing Pumpkins:


MASK's guns are two M79 grenade launchers, heavily modified to resemble sawn-off shotguns. Their collective name is DREAM ALL DAY. This song was the first big single by The Posies, an alt-rock band that first went major label but then went to being indie (usually it's the reverse), where they gained credibility as a prominent indie-rock band:


There's been some debate whether the lyrics in these songs have correlation to any of the personas in question. Me, I think they're just good songs to reference.

In the name of Harman...
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Re: Killer7 - 笑顔 - "What do you want? Who do you want, huh?" "You." *cl-click* *BANG*

Post by thatguyif »

I will keep this thread going, even as we near its end.

Spoilers on today's videos:
I get the sense that tomorrow's video will be hilarious for the simple fact that the rest of this entire chapter is about 5-10 minutes long. Had raocow just pushed a bit more, the video would've ended cleanly. :mrgreen:
An interesting aside as well: Emir's birthday matches the day of the JFK assassination, November 22. Emir's death date is April 28, which (probably coincidentally) is the day Gavrilo Princip, the assassin of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, died.

Nothing more to add about the absurd batshit theory spun by Suda51 regarding the elections, other than perhaps that, being used to a centralized government, he's almost certainly unaware of how federal governments, where provinces/states have greater control over their affairs, work. Still, I think it's now time to talk a little bit about the "supplemental material."

First I will speak of the infamous Plot Analysis written by one James Clinton Howell, aka Shockley_Haynes. You may find it here. It's an interesting trinket of internet history, for it was the rare appearance of overwrought, under-edited, in-depth game theory in a time before TVTropes and hour-long YouTube videos on such subjects. Usually such things were relegated to old-school forums such as this one. It was a bold attempt to make sense of Killer7, to make the inexplicable explicable. I remember reading it a couple years after it was posted on GameFAQs. It's a very fascinating read. But it is, of course, filled with flaws, as much as my own theorizing on this thread has its own. At the same time, it was able to observe certain facts that would later be "verified" upon the "official" supplemental material. In particular,

the existence of two Harman Smiths, one of a deified nature (the one we call "Old," what the material strangely calls "Hasidic"), the other more "human" (the one we call "Young")

. And at a time during internet history where it was still rather difficult to hunt for official material when the official channels didn't offer them, this was the best we could do.

It was only several years later that Western fans of the game learned of the "official" supplemental material of the game, a book called Hand in killer7, published the same year as killer7's original release, 2005. It featured much information, including a larger explanation of the various factions and characters, an overall timeline, a comic-based prototype of the game, and some attempts to fill plotholes, as well as interviews by many members of the dev team, along with a few Japanese developers who are friends (like Masuhiro Sakurai. I wonder when Suda and Sakurai will make a Kirby game together...). There have been translations of the book by two separate groups that cover most (but not all) of it. You may find them here and here.

With that said, one should take *extreme caution* with Hand in killer7. The book not only contradicts the game in many places, it contradicts itself. Given this is Goichi Suda we're talking about, this is almost certainly by design, as he has a tendency of messing with people's heads on the stuff he does. He even brings it up in his interview:
Suda51 wrote:The chronology in this book is pretty straightforward and covers the basic facts. However, whether or not it is the truth should be viewed with suspicion.
Still, there are some interesting revelations to come into play in this book, which may or may not be true:
  • The nature of the Smith personae: Called the Multifoliate Personae Phenomenon, it's basically DID on steroids, with Harman essentially absorbing corpses and shapeshifting into them. However, he is not necessarily the dominant persona at all times, as demonstrated in this game.
  • Old and Young Harman Smith are two separate individuals.
  • Samantha Sitbon/Smith functioned as a backup assassin after the personae were nearly destroyed from a rampage triggered either by her or Emir/Garcian and needed time to recover.
  • Kevin Smith is gay.
  • The "killer7" is the Second Smith Syndicate. The first appeared in the 18th century, upon Harman's manifesting the aforementioned MPP, triggered by Kun Lan. Yes, the two men have been around that long.
  • Harman constantly beats Kun Lan at chess, but whenever he loses, he has to give something up to Kun Lan. When it occurred in 1973, Harman gave Kun Lan control of the West Coast of the US, sending Dan Smith as his representative to Curtis Blackburn. This would lead to Dan's second death at Blackburn's hands via Montana's frame job.
  • The car you see in Lion was Christopher Mills' car, but its previous owner was Gabriel Clemence...in other words, it's the car painted in Andrei Ulmeyda's blood at the end of Cloudman.
  • Harman Smith's near-vegetative condition in the game was triggered when Dan Smith—probably figuring out Harman's role in his second death—attacked and gravely wounded Harman Smith in 2000. This in turn led to Samantha's reversion from assassin to caretaker.
  • Samantha's abusive behavior in the game—secretly one of the plot drivers of the game itself—was triggered by events discussed in the book, when an FBI agent named Jaco Checkbox, leveraging a fortune-telling AI machine to eliminate the Heaven Smile, persuades Samantha to abuse Harman as a form of hypnosis to guide both him and Garcian into finding and killing the Last Shot Smile, as doing so would eliminate the Heaven Smile threat completely.
  • Johnny Gagnon's letters were written 11 years before the game began. Holbert's tapes were made in 1992.
  • The Yakumo is so powerful, that in 2020 in this game's timeline, a part of it was made public and immediately gained the religious reverence of, say, a relic of the Buddha or a True Piece of the Cross.
  • While the destruction of the Smiths at Coburn and the awakening of Emir Parkreiner would bring about the end of the Second Smith Syndicate, it was not the final Syndicate. Indeed, the supposed final Syndicate is the Fifth. And the dominant persona is neither Harman nor Garcian (the possibility is that Garcian, after awakening as Emir, no longer exists as a persona), but MASK. The final battle ends in the late 22nd century. However, it's not implied to be the end of Harman and Kun Lan's friendly rivalry...
  • It is further implied that there is a being far greater than both Harman and Kun Lan, enough that both fear him outright.
There are also (untranslated) short stories set in the killer7 universe written by Suda in his old monthly column for Famitsu. These, interestingly, have implications for another game that would not appear for another decade:

Travis Strikes Again: No More Heroes

.

One last thing. Iwazaru is clearly a Japanese name, but it's no ordinary name. It's a reference to the Japanese maxim of the three wise monkeys. Iwazaru literally means "speak not." Mizaru means "see not." Kikizaru means "hear not."

In the name of Harman...
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strongbadman
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Re: Killer7 - 笑顔 - "What do you want? Who do you want, huh?" "You." *cl-click* *BANG*

Post by strongbadman »

The ending of smile is beautiful. Garcian makes a big deal about how as a cleaner, he can't feel remorse for the dead bodies he recovers, to him "it's just cold, rotting flesh". And his stoicism is reflected in cutscenes, too. He's always cool and collected, even during the game of russian roulette.

But at the hotel, he breaks down. Mills says he's crying, and when he puts Emir down, he loses his cool. On some level, he's come to get used to the company of the personas, regardless of how real it was, which is still up in the air?

Worth noting: Hand in killer 7 says Garcian is a sweet man who wouldn't hurt a fly. Quite a far cry from Emir Parkreiner, the Bloody Heartland, the Ace of Aces who coldly gunned down the Smith Syndicate.
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Re: Killer7 - 笑顔 - "What do you want? Who do you want, huh?" "You." *cl-click* *BANG*

Post by Grounder »



8's endings are the same
Why don't you eat me?

I am perfectly tasty...

AND I'LL STEAL YOUR SOUL! :twisted:

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Re: Killer7 - 獅子 - "Harman, the world won't change. All it does is turn. Now, let's dance."

Post by thatguyif »

And now, it is done.

Lion ties up the loose end regarding the whole subplot between Japan and the United States. Your choice of killing or sparing Matsuken determines the fate of Japan and the US. Killing him ends with Japan's annihilation. Sparing him ends with the destruction of the United States, as the entire world turns against it upon Japan revealing the country's dark secrets.

The timing of it proved opportune. The game's release coincided with the revelations of torture found at both the Guantanamo Bay Base in Cuba, and the Abu Ghraib Prison Camp in Iraq. The veneer of the United States as a shining beacon of hope and democracy finally fell off to the entire world, or at least we couldn't bear to put up with it anymore. If the list of crimes the US had a hand in were put to court, the only sentence would be, akin to Matthew 21:66, "Death! Death!"

Killer8 is a very hard mode of the game. On the one hand, you gain Young Harman Smith, who is basically Harman Smith but on two legs and with a Tommy gun instead of an anti-material rifle, though it packs the same punch. He also has Old Harman Smith's health. As a trade-off, he has no upgrades. On the other hand, the game is MUCH MORE difficult for two reasons:
  1. The weak spots of the Smiles are now invisible. In the western releases of the game, this meant you have to guess where the weak spots are and shoot wildly (granted, the weak spots are in very specific spots, so it's not THAT hard to guess, but still). The Japanese version alleviated this by having Critical Lock-On on by default at the start of the game in all modes, but that was changed for obvious reasons.
  2. The Smiles not only have more regular health, but hit much harder. Every persona except Young Harman dies in one Smile explosion. Young Harman can take two before kicking it.
The game is otherwise not different from the original modes. The only narrative difference that I'm aware of is that at the end of Smile, at the battle in the Gymnasium, Young Harman sacrifices himself for the last Black Heaven Smile, allowing Garcian to get the Golden Gun without any threat. I don't think he gets a Handsome Man fight or replaces Old Harman to fight Handsome Red. That said, I haven't seen anyone post longplays of Killer8 mode, so I can't say that with certainty.

Completing Killer8 mode unlocks one final secret: Hopper7 Mode. This joke mode basically is Chapter 0: Angel, but it replaces the regular Heaven Smiles with "Grasshoppers:" Dudes wearing striped t-shirts, shorts, and grasshopper outfits on their heads. They can be shot anywhere for thick green blood. Otherwise, the level itself is unchanged.

I'll spare you some trouble and post a playthrough of Hopper7 mode below. Apologies for the quality, it was the only playthrough I found without commentary.


Anyway...that's all. Thanks for putting up with my posts and all that.

h̵̫͋͑a̶͈̿̕h̸̞͈̉̓à̷͇͖h̸͚̓ạ̷̕
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Re: Killer7 - 獅子 - "Harman, the world won't change. All it does is turn. Now, let's dance."

Post by raocow »

thank you for running the thread!
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strongbadman
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Re: Killer7 - 獅子 - "Harman, the world won't change. All it does is turn. Now, let's dance."

Post by strongbadman »

It was really good seeing you play this game! I knew you'd enjoy it, it's weird, stylish, and just has so much personality
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Re: Killer7 - 獅子 - "Harman, the world won't change. All it does is turn. Now, let's dance."

Post by Liquid Salad »

half life 2 was a surprise, killer 7 a bigger surprise!

whats next? flower sun and rain? :?
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