BANJO-KAZOOIE - Making a Sequel Tease

[strongbadman]

generally boss fights in 3D platformer games suck but this one was. fine. most of it is spent actively fighting and looking for openings rather than waiting around to be given the opportunity to attack, but the game's generally sluggish pace and the difficulty of aiming most attacks make it look like it feels pretty bad

the yooka-laylee final boss i remember being just the absolute worst, overlong overbloated nightmarefest
and the sequel, like, let's not even talk about that, lmao

I will go to bat for the sequel's whole deal, the bosses are interesting challenges,

but jesus them being the start of a segment rather than the end really stinks.

[Crow]

there weren't segments when i played the game

[Rixithechao]

I wrote up a whole analysis/breakdown of the fight because the N64 Rare bosses were childhood highlights for me, boss design in general is a personal passion, and while this fight wasn't perfect there's still a lot to appreciate about the design and presentation of it. But like, a lot of it just covered what raocow said in the video and folks already mentioned in the youtube comments. I wouldn't really be bringing much new to the table beyond obvious stuff like "final boss themes should really milk the relevant leitmotifs for all they're worth", and "when you have a full set of formalized bosses with health bars and dedicated arenas and such the final boss needs to do more or break the pattern in some way to stand out but if it's just an end boss then there's no established precedent, anything goes, you can go all in" and so on. I probably should've just spent that time on something else.

But I will say that, for what it's worth... there were opportunities when raocow could've lined himself up with Grunty and the camera to fire eggs straight forward, up on the control stick, and if you hit her with a big enough barrage you can 1-cycle that phase; instead rao kept trying for an angle he couldn't gauge well. There are survival moments between the phases where you have to wait on the witch to move on, but overall the player has a decent amount of control over the pacing of the fight.

also
- preferring the flow and style of bosses in high-octane pure action PS2s games is 100% valid but holding an n64 scrimblo bimblo game to those standards is certainly A Take
- by "generally 3d platformer bosses suck" are we talking bosses in all kinds of 3d platformers or just collectathons specifically? Because you mention YL and really most examples of bad 3d platformer bosses that come to mind are in that subgenre... and, well, sonic games, and licensed games. But also one shouldn't be going into those two groups of 3d platformers expecting an expertly-crafted experience.

[KobaBeach]

- preferring the flow and style of bosses in high-octane pure action PS2s games is 100% valid but holding an n64 scrimblo bimblo game to those standards is certainly A Take

i wasn't holding anything to standards please stop putting words in my mouth

but also i don't like scrimblo bimblo shit in general

[Rixithechao]

Fair.

I guess I took your first post to mean you were already familiar with the boss and were excited to see raocow fight Grunty -- somehow I didn't register you were anticipating it from Catabo's post -- so following that up with "this looks boring, I won't debate this, talk to me after you've played these bosses I like from a later console generation" was just that much more jarring. And the phrasing, even with the edits, felt weirdly... dismissive and passive-aggressive? Like, "you just do this" is really reductive, you can describe anything that way to make it sound bland and boring. And edit 2's phrasing came across as "hey, that's just my impression, you're allowed to enjoy bad stuff but it's pointless to argue that it's not bad".

That was probably the furthest from what you meant with any of that, though. Apologies for misinterpreting your post and acting like a jerk over it

[KobaBeach]

That was probably the furthest from what you meant with any of that, though. Apologies for misinterpreting your post and acting like a jerk over it

Okay no I just. I just speak really abrasively because of kinda CPTSD and also irony poisoning, and I kind of acknowledge that, I speak like this towards my family too because I suffer from really bad anxiety disorder and a bit of like. Being afraid of people in general, which likely came from stuff like school, my initial exile from Talkhaus with the guro spammer, and my entire posting history in SMWCentral in general.

The Nelo Angelo and Riku thing was mostly me shitposting because that's the only way I know how to speak online. I literally just act Joker as fuck because I'm constantly stressed and screaming on the inside. It doesn't excuse me coming off as passive-aggressive, and I've actually lost friends over it and my trauma dumping.

I meant like it was pointless to argue because like. I don't think Grunty is that impressive, because I'm not into traditional platformer bosses and I've grown a bit tired of most platformers outside of stuff like Treasure, Konami or Kirby. And arguing about it is pointless because it's just not for me. It's an okay boss but, I'm more into stuff like Nelo Angelo where it feels more "twitchy". And I feel like people should like not argue about why they like things because it's really annoying and people should just enjoy what they like without caring about what others feel.

SMWC has constant kaizo vs. standard pissing contest threads and it's literally the nadir of the site and the biggest example I can think of right now. Just like what you like and don't care what people have to say. I play nothing but bad JRPGs, imagine me caring about someone saying "oh WRPGs are better" other than like making fun of them. I like WRPGs too even if I've only just played like 2 so far. They're more methodical so I can't binge them as properly.

Also no, I don't hate scrimblo bimblo "shit" I'm just incredibly stressed and didn't mean that. I'm sorry I got mad at you.

I'm sorry for starting so much shit.

EDIT: I'm currently playing Arc the Lad II for self-care after the stress of this entire thing and also due to feeling bad I hurt Rixi (I'm sorry again), and that's incredibly funny because the game opens with an entire village getting murked by gunfire. I'm sorry I just really had to post this somewhere because "Arc 2 for Self-Care" is such incredible tonal dissonance that it murders me in a comedic sort of way, yet it works for me? Strategy RPGs are just really good for the soul tho. I should pirate XCOM,

[KobaBeach]

Also I would unironically cheat on the Click Clock Wood puzzle because I expect this sort of shit from Rare but while I usually relish in it with them being a pretty good game design team on top of their cheeky bing bong British troll nonsense, in this case it's not very fun seeming. Even if raocow was being shit at it like he was with Grunty's Final Aeon.

Also also (Nina Nina), if I were to like to like, properly examine Grunty, the reason I'm not into her battle is that I'm more into battles that have simpler movesets than Banjo-Kazooie's which I feel works best in levels, but I also haven't exactly played it. I'm not gonna take this as a super serious critique because again, I never finished BK yet. So my critique feels at the same level of mine with JUMP Half Bowser which, man I don't think I'll ever finish any JUMP game

I'm personally more into like, battles with simpler movesets like Kirby's copy abilities and Sparkster's sword. They usually result in much mechanically simpler bosses and for that reason I feel like they can be more effective especially due to how, they can use the abilities to spring board into all kinds of dumb shit as long as the way of dealing damage is easy to read, like Sparkster basically has a forever lasting projectile attack and Kirby has the ability to counter projectiles by tossing them back or using a weapon of their own from out of the encounter making for an easier battle.

Computer Virus/Battle Windows is technically a carol boss but it's a good enough deconstruction that it works. I am kind of comparing a 2D sidescroller with a 3D collectathon but like. I dunno I feel the heart of it is kinda there? It might be from this being the first game but the Jinjo attack felt kind of clunky and the Egg phase she mostly just acted like a turret, regardless of raocow being bad at the game. I really liked the broom attack but I wish it was more dynamic, though there is the issue of fighting a 5th Gen camera.

I feel like a similar boss, that does things a smidge better is E-101 mkII from Sonic Adventure, which I believe is just one year apart, 1998, though it is on more advanced hardware (not as advanced as PS2 though). I'm also a sucker for like "genre-breaking" where you just have bosses that like break from the traditional gameplay like Star Dream or 0² or the boxing mecha in Sparkster. I haven't played Climax in JUMP 1 yet, but I remember it being a good example as well. Seven Koopalings would be a good example with how it integrates SaGa mechanics into platforming, but it drags on too much to be playable RTA, as 2000s hacks are wont to do.

I also feel like people are only focusing on the "maxing out your skills" aspect of the boss battle when I feel boss making is a bit of a spectrum. For one in the Swordcraft Story subseries you're basically fighting people and Summons to take down their health bar, Tales style, maybe busting their weapon if you're going for all weapons. In Swordcraft Story: The Stone of Beginnings, the third game, the final boss has you

fighting to break the weapon alone as you're fighting a possessed friend

. And in that way it bases it on narrative design and puts the entire gameplay of the series on its head by focusing on the side objective.

Also Chaoxys mentioned Okami before but I personally enjoyed

Yami

a ton. Big ol'

chocolate orange

.

P.S. i hate nabnut's chewing noise

[camwoodstock]

remember in the early 2010s when everyone universally adored banjo kazooie because one big famous reviewer men said it was the best game on the console? this thread is both fascinating and also incredibly funny to us specifically having been subjected to the period of the internet where that specific lens was THE lens to view banjo kazooie as a video game

[strongbadman]

So, the big question that everyone was asking for years and years: Just what was Stop n Swop supposed to build up to? The answer was always going to be disappointing, but in reality it was stuff that's already in Tooie. They just put it all in Tooie anyway and had a different way to unlock it.

Now, in the xbox ports of the banjo games, they actually did go back an integrate stop n swop properly- or as properly as you can without physical discs or carts- but that's something to talk about more when the inevitable Tooie lp happens, and by someone who's more articulate than I am.

[Grounder]

See you next time on the Ape Bear Game Channel in what will almost certainly still not be Diddy Kong Racing!

[Kincyr]

So, the big question that everyone was asking for years and years: Just what was Stop n Swop supposed to build up to? The answer was always going to be disappointing, but in reality it was stuff that's already in Tooie. They just put it all in Tooie anyway and had a different way to unlock it.

well, half of the eggs anyway. they did have to cut out the final area, so for all we know they may have cut the planned contents of the red, cyan, and green eggs too

[idol]

i think this was a good lp and that banjo tooie is better htan banjo kasooie

[Kincyr]

might as well post this, since I came across it last night

[J. J. W. Mezun]

No better way to start a video than performing body horror experiments on bears.

[Catabo]

Re: the boss, I called it spectacular because it's a literal spectacle befitting of a final battle. It tests several of your different moves and it's actually got some challenge to it; Grunty's shots lead you similarly to Gulp's in Spyro 2 and death is such a realistic possibility that I feel the red health upgrade was added specifically to make the Grunty fight easier. Perhaps I'm so blown away by it because my mind made the "default" comparison to SM64 Bowser where all you do is throw Bowser into mines again.

And then the puzzles and the cheats! They're a nice little final squeeze of longevity out of the game and a fun little bonus reward that isn't yet another collectable.

I also feel like people are only focusing on the "maxing out your skills" aspect of the boss battle when I feel boss making is a bit of a spectrum. For one in the Swordcraft Story subseries you're basically fighting people and Summons to take down their health bar, Tales style, maybe busting their weapon if you're going for all weapons. In Swordcraft Story: The Stone of Beginnings, the third game, the final boss has you

fighting to break the weapon alone as you're fighting a possessed friend

. And in that way it bases it on narrative design and puts the entire gameplay of the series on its head by focusing on the side objective.

I only played the first two Swordcrafts, but that's really cool and I could only imagine how it would feel when it would dawn on me that I have to do that after a whole trilogy of mostly avoiding that mechanic because it's normally more tedious than just defeating the enemy. (wow that sentence was a word salad oops) In Swordcraft 2 I always waited for Arm Breaker access to care about breaking weapons, and I managed to break Ureksa's weapon in 1 but I'm pretty sure that was because I got him in an AI lock.

[KobaBeach]

Re: the boss, I called it spectacular because it's a literal spectacle befitting of a final battle. It tests several of your different moves and it's actually got some challenge to it; Grunty's shots lead you similarly to Gulp's in Spyro 2 and death is such a realistic possibility that I feel the red health upgrade was added specifically to make the Grunty fight easier. Perhaps I'm so blown away by it because my mind made the "default" comparison to SM64 Bowser where all you do is throw Bowser into mines again.

Don't feel bad about calling it spectacular, it's pretty flashy. I'd probably have a bit of fun when I play it possibly later this year, but the Jinjo parts seem super annoying, even with raocow flubbing it up. I just prefer more high tension bosses like I mentioned, Nelo Angelo is definitely one of my fave bosses and I want to continue DMC1 so I can know how it feels with harder AI later down the game. You can be blown away by Grunty's battle and think it's super good. I don't want my bitching to take that away from you.

You are not wrong for thinking it's good. Just enjoy things.

Also no the red health is definitely a nerf. SM64 Bowser is alright the first time but, as usual with Nintendo and Miyamoto they Do Nothing Interesting. At least SM64 has bomb ass stages for most of the game.

The cheats are really neat, I love fucked up Banjo, but I feel like having them given to you by discovering a secret then deleting your save if you insert more than two is weirdly mean and I kind of don't like that. Stop n' Swop was weirdly fascinating as a kid and I remember finding the Ice Key really sus when I cheated my way into Freezeezy Peak (sp?).

I was super into scrapped and unused game content when I was younger, growing up as a 2D Sonic fan. Genocide City, Hidden Palace, Selph/Self, the Arwing in Zelda OoT, they were my bread and butter. Perusing the occasional TCRF page these days is always a fun treat, even though most of the pages are debug info or developer text.

I only played the first two Swordcrafts, but that's really cool and I could only imagine how it would feel when it would dawn on me that I have to do that after a whole trilogy of mostly avoiding that mechanic because it's normally more tedious than just defeating the enemy. (wow that sentence was a word salad oops) In Swordcraft 2 I always waited for Arm Breaker access to care about breaking weapons, and I managed to break Ureksa's weapon in 1 but I'm pretty sure that was because I got him in an AI lock.

I'm definitely playing Stone of Beginnings once I finish SS2 (I found out about this in TVTropes lol). I could wait until I finished the mainline SN2 and SN3, but it'd take a while because apparently SN3 is a slight difficulty spike and it has mechanics to encourage challenging maps without grinding them out, for nice rewards. Klonoa Heroes got translated like two days ago, so hopefully Stone of Beginnings' patch gets finished in the coming years.

[TiKi]

*Scary Sequel Tease

[Bean]

What a fun run to watch. Looks like you had a blast playing the game again, and it's been a while since you've gone through a game like that where you clearly knew what you were doing for the most part. Enjoyed this one a lot!