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Mega Man 2.5D - Rocking the Third Dimension... Kind of!

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Re: Mega Man 2.5D - Rocking the Third Dimension... Kind of!

Post by raocow »

it was around twenty minutes each segment, so all together it fit inside two hours I guess ?
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Re: Mega Man 2.5D - Rocking the Third Dimension... Kind of!

Post by Kilgamayan »

raocow wrote: 2 years ago
Kilgamayan wrote: 2 years ago

Or you can just tank through everything with a glut of E's, if you happen to be playing three games a day for a paying audience and therefore have to adhere to a fairly strict time-limited schedule which in turn limits your ability to have fun with anything.
this took a turn
It's not commentary on you, to be clear! My belief is that, at this point, you have honed MegaManning down to a very fine point that perfectly fits your life schedule. The problem is that your life schedule is inherent anathema to the open-endedness and pattern learning that are hallmarks of playing MegaMan games. I imagine the raocow of 2022 plays this game much more similarly to the raocow of 2006 if the raocow of 2006 makes slightly different life choices.

Really, this is something I've been commenting on since I think Iconoclasts, if not before. (It might've even been Rabi-Ribi!) It's simply a screamingly obvious issue in MegaMan and Kirby Golf settings in particular.
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Re: Mega Man 2.5D - Rocking the Third Dimension... Kind of!

Post by Kilgamayan »

Also happy birthday.
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Re: Mega Man 2.5D - Rocking the Third Dimension... Kind of!

Post by EllenHouraisan »

I feel like this has a lot less to do with raocow having a busy schedule and not wanting to learn a boss because of that, and more to do with the fact that the game showers you with so many E-tanks that you are not incentivised to learn it at all.
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Re: Mega Man 2.5D - Rocking the Third Dimension... Kind of!

Post by TiKi »

KobaBeach wrote: 2 years ago man they really half-assed the wily machine

adramelech this is not
what, the castlevania boss?
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Re: Mega Man 2.5D - Rocking the Third Dimension... Kind of!

Post by Kilgamayan »

EllenHouraisan wrote: 2 years ago I feel like this has a lot less to do with raocow having a busy schedule and not wanting to learn a boss because of that, and more to do with the fact that the game showers you with so many E-tanks that you are not incentivised to learn it at all.
Learning the pattern itself is all the incentive needed! Sure, you (the generic player) can hit the self-destruct button up to 27 times at the beginning of this stage and build up a full reserve of Es, but that's incredibly boring and tedious and you only do it if you think for some reason that you have to. There's no sense of accomplishment with E-ing through the game, while there's every sense of accomplishment with mentally figuring out a boss pattern and then physically dancing your fingers across the buttons in the order necessary to take advantage of the information gained from the mental accomplishment.

There's a really obvious difference in moods when the funny video voice game man is stonewalling through a challenge compared to when he's deconstructing the challenge and overcoming it on the terms it defines. The only advantage the former approach has over the latter is in its reliability on a pure emotionless game progression level, but since the clock is king when you literally get paid to play three different video games and make quality video recordings of them all every single day, that advantage ends up trumping all of the advantages of the latter approach. In any scenario where both are not possible simultaneously, fun and accomplishment are going to take a backseat to production of useable content every single time.
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Re: Mega Man 2.5D - Rocking the Third Dimension... Kind of!

Post by Bean »

Well, this was a marathon session, and even then, raocow quickly figured out most of the boss weaknesses for the rematches. I'm actually surprised at how well the place went for him because it is pretty much death trap after death trap in the second and third stages, and it kind of wears on your patience when you get a game over. Unless I'm missing the point, I'm not really getting the rush to make videos argument since it was basically the usual raocow uses the buster early on and then goes more for weapons late attitude he's had in plenty of these games.
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Re: Mega Man 2.5D - Rocking the Third Dimension... Kind of!

Post by EllenHouraisan »

Kilgamayan wrote: 2 years ago
EllenHouraisan wrote: 2 years ago I feel like this has a lot less to do with raocow having a busy schedule and not wanting to learn a boss because of that, and more to do with the fact that the game showers you with so many E-tanks that you are not incentivised to learn it at all.
Learning the pattern itself is all the incentive needed! Sure, you (the generic player) can hit the self-destruct button up to 27 times at the beginning of this stage and build up a full reserve of Es, but that's incredibly boring and tedious and you only do it if you think for some reason that you have to. There's no sense of accomplishment with E-ing through the game, while there's every sense of accomplishment with mentally figuring out a boss pattern and then physically dancing your fingers across the buttons in the order necessary to take advantage of the information gained from the mental accomplishment.

There's a really obvious difference in moods when the funny video voice game man is stonewalling through a challenge compared to when he's deconstructing the challenge and overcoming it on the terms it defines. The only advantage the former approach has over the latter is in its reliability on a pure emotionless game progression level, but since the clock is king when you literally get paid to play three different video games and make quality video recordings of them all every single day, that advantage ends up trumping all of the advantages of the latter approach. In any scenario where both are not possible simultaneously, fun and accomplishment are going to take a backseat to production of useable content every single time.
Okay, just checking to make sure... You are aware different people enjoy games in different ways, right? Like, it really feels like you're taking your experience with the game and turning it into the one optimal way to experience it, and it's impossible to have fun unless you're doing exactly that. Personally, I cannot imagine myself taking the time to figure this boss out on my own volition, and I am literally unemployed.
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Re: Mega Man 2.5D - Rocking the Third Dimension... Kind of!

Post by Kilgamayan »

That ending theme was fire, damn.
EllenHouraisan wrote: 2 years ago
Kilgamayan wrote: 2 years ago
EllenHouraisan wrote: 2 years ago I feel like this has a lot less to do with raocow having a busy schedule and not wanting to learn a boss because of that, and more to do with the fact that the game showers you with so many E-tanks that you are not incentivised to learn it at all.
Learning the pattern itself is all the incentive needed! Sure, you (the generic player) can hit the self-destruct button up to 27 times at the beginning of this stage and build up a full reserve of Es, but that's incredibly boring and tedious and you only do it if you think for some reason that you have to. There's no sense of accomplishment with E-ing through the game, while there's every sense of accomplishment with mentally figuring out a boss pattern and then physically dancing your fingers across the buttons in the order necessary to take advantage of the information gained from the mental accomplishment.

There's a really obvious difference in moods when the funny video voice game man is stonewalling through a challenge compared to when he's deconstructing the challenge and overcoming it on the terms it defines. The only advantage the former approach has over the latter is in its reliability on a pure emotionless game progression level, but since the clock is king when you literally get paid to play three different video games and make quality video recordings of them all every single day, that advantage ends up trumping all of the advantages of the latter approach. In any scenario where both are not possible simultaneously, fun and accomplishment are going to take a backseat to production of useable content every single time.
Okay, just checking to make sure... You are aware different people enjoy games in different ways, right? Like, it really feels like you're taking your experience with the game and turning it into the one optimal way to experience it, and it's impossible to have fun unless you're doing exactly that. Personally, I cannot imagine myself taking the time to figure this boss out on my own volition, and I am literally unemployed.
I'm taking into account my years-long experience with listening to the funny video voice game man and how he behaves and reacts to different things. He is noticeably happier when figuring things out and overcoming them via skill and is noticeably more depressed or irritated when he decides he needs to E-spam his way through, and the latter decision is pretty much entirely a matter of "I think I could probably figure this out but I need to produce content for paying customers so I don't have the time".

Perhaps generalizing to the generic video game player was a step too far - there are any number of reasons someone not in raocow's life situation would approach that fight the same way he did, and more accessibility possibilities is never a bad thing. In raocow's specific case, though, there absolute is plenty of personal incentive to learn the boss; the social and financial incentives to E-spam his way through simply trump those personal incentives.
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Re: Mega Man 2.5D - Rocking the Third Dimension... Kind of!

Post by Grounder »

and so wily was never executed for his crimes, leading to centuries upon centuries of suffering

hooray! :mgmn:
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I am perfectly tasty...

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Re: Mega Man 2.5D - Rocking the Third Dimension... Kind of!

Post by Chirei »

That was an oddly static and buster-unfriendly capsule fight.

I did actually see the shiny new bucket.txt and notice rockforce replay is on there. Am very much looking forward to that when it happens.
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Re: Mega Man 2.5D - Rocking the Third Dimension... Kind of!

Post by Grounder »

oh yeah, and spark man is a stage so uh
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Re: Mega Man 2.5D - Rocking the Third Dimension... Kind of!

Post by Bean »

You can use Pharaoh Shot to win a lot faster. Your method worked though, so good game!
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Re: Mega Man 2.5D - Rocking the Third Dimension... Kind of!

Post by camwoodstock »

much like the game itself, this thread has officially taken a sudden, jarring 90 degree turn. truly, the perfect microcosm of this experience

to kinda reel it back a bit: our thoughts on the level & the game itself (the main game, not including anything in the challenge stage thing): this game's... weird. on the one hand, like, it's clear effort went into it, and it looks enjoyable enough. the game has a solid enough 2d basis! and Yet. we can't help but feel... disappointed??? is that the word??? here's the thing. we did not know of the original animations before this lp. so like we can't say "oh we waited so long for a game like the original animations and this wasn't quite that!", that's a brazen lie and for what purpose?

...what we can say is we look at the animations and wistfully think of what could've very easily, very plausibly been.

the animations themselves, as mentioned multiple times prior, feature full on 2.5d gimmicks, and even 2.5 takes on pre-existing gimmicks! ...this game basically never did this aside from the hammers in one of the wily stage, that appear exactly as ONE set of them, exactly once, and never again. it never really, hid things with strange angles, aside from the One (1) 1up in quick man. instead, much of it is just "90 degree rotation of the camera to show new area in lieu of the camera scrolling". and like. that is fine... if it's not the only thing you do! you could very literally do basically everything aside from... maybe the mecha dragon fight and the wily 5 tower ascension, in just 2d. and even then, that's because it would be fairly claustrophobic without instant screen scrolling.

speaking of wily 5, yeah uh, the only 2.5d element in that entire stage was that tower. everything else you could've easily done in 2d, including the wily capsule??? it's the wily capsule! that is your god given excuse to make a zany 2.5d final boss! but here, it's just kind of... more-or-less attack patterns from other wily capsules. not necessarily even difficult attacks, mind you. tellingly, even when raocow was at the seat of his pants after a 2-ish hour long recording session, he didn't need a singular e-tank or lose a singular life to the capsule, so like... clearly difficulty is not really extant for this fight, huh...

we dunno. maybe it's bc games like klonoa or kirby 64 have been, fresh in our minds due to recent circumstances, so this game just looks brazenly not-as-2.5d compared to those examples. but like even if those games were not new, we think we'd be singing the same tune just bc... the videos that the game was based on, showed stuff like that, that we just literally never see or even have any real equivalents to??? it is truly, truly baffling.

we kinda doubt the challenge stage thing (or whatever that spark man thing is) will really, change anything too drastic, sadly??? which really stinks. this game has so much going for it but it has the absolute blatant flaw of "not committing to the bit enough" which... yeah...

in short: uhhh yeah this game's weird. :aliceko:
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Re: Mega Man 2.5D - Rocking the Third Dimension... Kind of!

Post by EllenHouraisan »

Kilgamayan wrote: 2 years ago I'm taking into account my years-long experience with listening to the funny video voice game man and how he behaves and reacts to different things. He is noticeably happier when figuring things out and overcoming them via skill and is noticeably more depressed or irritated when he decides he needs to E-spam his way through, and the latter decision is pretty much entirely a matter of "I think I could probably figure this out but I need to produce content for paying customers so I don't have the time".

Perhaps generalizing to the generic video game player was a step too far - there are any number of reasons someone not in raocow's life situation would approach that fight the same way he did, and more accessibility possibilities is never a bad thing. In raocow's specific case, though, there absolute is plenty of personal incentive to learn the boss; the social and financial incentives to E-spam his way through simply trump those personal incentives.
The thing is, you don't know. You're just assuming things because YOU loved this boss fight super much, and that makes you jump to the conclusion that raocow did too, but was stopping himself from enjoying it properly due to his schedule. Maybe that's what happened, maybe he just didn't think the boss was that interesting to really afford learning, maybe he thought tanking through it with E-tanks was the more efficient strategy (which, honestly, it is). This whole mentality of "I know exactly what's going on in this person's head because I've watched them on Youtube for years" is honestly pretty... Icky. It also reeks of the "you didn't grow and you didn't improve" meme. Like, just let people play the game the way they want. Don't assume they are forcing themselves to play the game differently just because they are not playing the way you want, even if it is a content creator you've followed for many years.
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Re: Mega Man 2.5D - Rocking the Third Dimension... Kind of!

Post by Catabo »

Yes, it's obvious that this game started out as a more pure Mega Man 2 re-imagining before it got changed to use other boss robots for variety's sake. But you know what? I think it would've been thematically better if it had stuck to the Mega Man 2 assets more, and rather than have redundant enemies from other games (do you really need Power Muscler and the mech robot thing from MM5 when you already have the Joe mech?), it should have innovated and done more with the 3D with stuff like the hammers from a few levels ago.

The conversation on skipping through bosses with E-cans reminds me of Mega Man ZX Advent, which I played along when cowman played it because I'd never played it before and I was itching for a new Mega Man experience after watching so much. When I got to the final boss, I had no choice but to learn it (and ended up having a lot of fun doing so) because I hadn't bothered to collect all of the sub tanks and health upgrades... so it was disappointing to watch cow fight the boss and find out that no, yeah, you really can just brute-force the whole thing as long as you found all the stuff. But I can't be mad; in the case of ZXA, the game gives you the tools to do that as your reward for going around and finding all the things. On top of that, I typically don't like watching cow get angry struggling through learning a boss and I sometimes use the YouTube "skip ten seconds" thing to skim through those parts of videos.

That being said! It is strange reconciling the E-can useage with the constant insistence on using the buster only. The buster approach is ostensibly for the "pure" or "how it was intended" experience, but special weapons and E-cans are both the same in that they're methods of making bosses easier. One just increases your damage while the other lets you take more. It's especially weird when you get situations like the Wily Capsule where cow tries a single special weapon and then gives up on finding the weakness.

Speaking of the Wily Capsule: while the "oh my gosh, there's a second skull!" thing is tired, I'm always glad when Wily Machine and Capsule are separated into their own stages. It lets you appreciate them as their own individual bosses rather than immediately despair and accept that you're never going to learn the ins and outs of a three-stage boss and you better just use E-cans.
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Re: Mega Man 2.5D - Rocking the Third Dimension... Kind of!

Post by Kilgamayan »

EllenHouraisan wrote: 2 years ago
Kilgamayan wrote: 2 years ago I'm taking into account my years-long experience with listening to the funny video voice game man and how he behaves and reacts to different things. He is noticeably happier when figuring things out and overcoming them via skill and is noticeably more depressed or irritated when he decides he needs to E-spam his way through, and the latter decision is pretty much entirely a matter of "I think I could probably figure this out but I need to produce content for paying customers so I don't have the time".

Perhaps generalizing to the generic video game player was a step too far - there are any number of reasons someone not in raocow's life situation would approach that fight the same way he did, and more accessibility possibilities is never a bad thing. In raocow's specific case, though, there absolute is plenty of personal incentive to learn the boss; the social and financial incentives to E-spam his way through simply trump those personal incentives.
The thing is, you don't know. You're just assuming things because YOU loved this boss fight super much, and that makes you jump to the conclusion that raocow did too, but was stopping himself from enjoying it properly due to his schedule. Maybe that's what happened, maybe he just didn't think the boss was that interesting to really afford learning, maybe he thought tanking through it with E-tanks was the more efficient strategy (which, honestly, it is). This whole mentality of "I know exactly what's going on in this person's head because I've watched them on Youtube for years" is honestly pretty... Icky. It also reeks of the "you didn't grow and you didn't improve" meme. Like, just let people play the game the way they want. Don't assume they are forcing themselves to play the game differently just because they are not playing the way you want, even if it is a content creator you've followed for many years.
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Re: Mega Man 2.5D - Rocking the Third Dimension... Kind of!

Post by camwoodstock »

camwoodstock wrote: 2 years ago much like the game itself, this thread has officially taken a sudden, jarring 90 degree turn. truly, the perfect microcosm of this experience
it's as they always said: if we've said it once,
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Re: Mega Man 2.5D - Rocking the Third Dimension... Kind of!

Post by Grounder »

i now realize that voxels might have been cool
Why don't you eat me?

I am perfectly tasty...

AND I'LL STEAL YOUR SOUL! :twisted:

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Re: Mega Man 2.5D - Rocking the Third Dimension... Kind of!

Post by Kilgamayan »

Yeah, this sort of stage was never really going to work as well as it wanted to without weapon energy refilling between lives. Regular stages that require minimal/no use of special weapons are one thing, long challenge stages that repeatedly require it are quite another.
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Re: Mega Man 2.5D - Rocking the Third Dimension... Kind of!

Post by SpoonyBardOL »

I wonder if you were meant to use two Search Snakes to time the button presses at the start of the stage? Might've been easier than dealing with the spikey ladder jerk.

Otherwise yeah, wow, the stage either needed to refill your weapon energy after each death to make the focus more on execution, or be returned to the drawing board for a rethink. Some really neat individual moments, but as presented it's pretty rough.

That boss battle was perfection though.
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Re: Mega Man 2.5D - Rocking the Third Dimension... Kind of!

Post by camwoodstock »

this stage... uhh, you can tell this level had no canon basis aside from, idk, do you count the weird setup from mega man 10 ballade minus the pit enemies as being based upon it? ...does limited weapon energy tht refuses to replenish itself a basis?

this honestly does not feel like it was tested all, namely in the way it very explicitly extremely hinges on you having weapon energy you simply do not have if you make One mistake. the starting area ostensibly fixes this, buuut you need rush coil, y'know, the same utility you need to enter the level proper! the first checkpoint is marginally better about this, but then the second one is right back to not giving you decently available weapon energy.

and like, this point is exceedingly petty, but like, not only do you need rush coil to even enter the level (hypothetically meaning that, if you drain all of rush coil and are on the level's opening, You Are Softlocked and need to exit out entirely! there is a 4 tile high jump you need to make that you literally can't because Silly You, Mega Man Doesn't Jump That High!, and you need rush coil. foooor a 4 tile high jump. like, everyone who has played a mega mans knows that mega man can only jump so high! did the dev just eyeball it in this case, not test the jump, and was like "oh well, whatever happens happens!"? why would anyone ever make a four-tile-high jump otherwise???

pretty much the one good thing is the boss... bc it is a blatant joke boss that doesn't even remotely put up a fight. considering everything else in the stage: Thank God

...wait did this level use the 2.5d, literally at all aside from the One (1) turn and a few of those background pillars that obstruct your view and/or spawn tellies???

we still have a spark man to go
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Re: Mega Man 2.5D - Rocking the Third Dimension... Kind of!

Post by Bean »

SpoonyBardOL wrote: 2 years agoI wonder if you were meant to use two Search Snakes to time the button presses at the start of the stage? Might've been easier than dealing with the spikey ladder jerk.
I think it's supposed to be a Time Slow deal since they reset real fast. Your idea would also work though if the shots were timed well enough.
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Re: Mega Man 2.5D - Rocking the Third Dimension... Kind of!

Post by Chirei »

Once again no screen transitions rearing its ugly head with the quick lasers. At least the boss at the end was raocow-level humor.

Someone mentioned it in the video comments but I really do wonder what this person's obsession with barely-not-high-enough-to-reach jumps are. Maybe the game was really called 2.5D because that's how many blocks you're short to make these jumps every time.
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Re: Mega Man 2.5D - Rocking the Third Dimension... Kind of!

Post by Kilgamayan »

Kilgamayan wrote: 12 years ago General gameplay tip: Nitori cannot make any jumps that are four blocks high or higher without glitchjumping
Ten years later, this remains true.

That being said, not to defend this level or the game in general or anything, but Tornado Blow increases your jump height for as long as it's active, as an emergency alternative to Rush Coil.
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