Shovel Knight: Treasure Trove - The Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Shovelry

[tirakai]

I feel like you might have too many cards with abilities in your Joustus deck. There's a lot of times where you just want to push normally.

[Grounder]

accidentally accurate thread title

[Crow]

finally, return of dog game

[Chirei]

As a former red deck wins player I am glad raocow took the time to just go back to basics on the deck.

Unlike mtg the gimmicks in Joustus seem like they have a huge possibility to actively harm the user so there seems little reason to interact with them heavily yourself?? So far every enemy that has been faced looked like they could be beaten just by having the correct stuff to push into their openings so going back to unga bunga mode seems like the right call here.

[Xenesis]

It was really nice to see you start using your Heirlooms as tools in the last few videos.

That bubble frog save was perfect.

[freshtalk]

The cards i most often made use of were the ones that turned red cards into blue, just filled my deck with as many possible because my thought process is that more blue can never be a bad thing.

Oh, and the fairy sprites are all super cute! I picked Shovel Knight because I'm basic like that

[Kleetus]

This is one of the best lines in the entire game.

Idontkneel.PNG (47.94 KiB) Viewed 2521 times

If only for this scene from Specter of Torment

nevermind.PNG (165.25 KiB) Viewed 2521 times

[Le Neveu de Rameau]

Man, Spectre Knight just seems like a pathetic schmendrick in this game. You'd think you might be moved to feel sorry for him due to the obvious disdain his bosses treat him with, but his reaction to that, in typical middle-management style, is apparently, "Going to bully me, eh? Well, I'll just go bully someone else weaker than me, what do you think about that, huh?" Only the person he tries to pick on isn't actually weaker than him, so he just gets his arse kicked. Twice. Worse yet, he actually tried that dorkass "I'll teach you some respect!" line again, despite the fact that his previous vow to beat "respect" in to King Knight only to get tar beaten out of his spectral self instead seemingly only served to make King Knight respect him even less. But no, this time, he's sure, if he adds a few extra skellingtons and some flashy lighting effects, everything's going to go completely differently. Ain't nobody every been impressed by a skellington, son.

[Crow]

finally, exodia the forbidden one has been played. the galaxy is in pieces

also you are at 132/135 medals, i believe, and the next level has 3, so! make of that what you will!

[AuraLancer]

Well that was a Final Fantasy boss.

[Chirei]

king knight went the hero route and then suddenly did the dark mission at the end

[Crow]

and had to face off with a giant flying robot as a result

yeah, it scans

[Grounder]

no thread title change because... yeah

[Kleetus]

I love the Enchantress as a villain, King of Cards, Specter of Torment, and to a lesser extent Black Knight's story show how her greatest strength is being able to twist and bend people to her, will be it through corruption or threats. I also like how she seems to have an entire sub section of her tower set aside that's just a place for her minions to hang out, play cards, have a drink. This is in line with how feasts are thrown for the Order of No Quarter. Rec time and parties are another way to keep loyal servants.

[thatguyif]

Well, I dunno if this'll get as much traction here as elsewhere, but still. Apologies for the length.

I would like to counter your thoughts on the narrative, raocow. I think one thing Yacht Club Games did was deliver an incredible narrative with King of Cards, in the sense that it really defined King Knight as a villain you hate pretty effectively and are glad to take out at the beginning of most of the games.

In essence, this story could be summed up as "What happens when you give a manchild a chance at greatness without requiring him to grow up?" The whole story is about a male loser living out his fantasy without having to change at all. The story drives this point home throughout. King Knight's betrayal was written in the cards from the very start, disregarding the other games in the series, because he never had any reason not to do that from his perspective. At the same time, Yacht Club Games made it work by flipping certain expectations and keeping his dark nature hidden under this veneer of silliness. It's a classic tragedy with the hero in the story being flipped from the protagonist to his supporters, the fatal flaw being the inability to see beyond his appearance as someone kingly. (One could make a statement about how modern society is more focused on individual appearances (and lauding/detesting those appearances) than actual actions done by individuals to great peril, but that's another tangent)

Had anyone looked even slightly deeper (which only Spectre Knight and Cardia were able to, though both were serving their own agendas), they would've seen King Knight as who he was: A self-absorbed, emotionally stunted young man with delusions of grandeur to drown out his lot in life. When you really think about it, King Knight's seemingly silly behavior he took dead seriously, and when you have someone like that, it's rather horrifying. He got smothered by his mother into "following his dreams," lacked any self-awareness of his situation, and was completely detached from the world around him, seeing it as flavor text to the personal story in his head. It's certainly someone you would never trust as a leader. He would not have gotten as far as he did without a cast of people who, for whatever reason, projected their own ideals of kingliness and heroism onto him and just expected him to be the hero without interrogating him in any way. It's an interesting twist in that in no way did King Knight actually do anything villainous until the very end. Instead, he LARPed his way through his quest, not once being even questioned on his delusions, perceptions, or ideals. Giga Cardia was the only moment before the end where the silliness was stripped away and revealed the monster underneath, and by then it was already too late.

Now, there are two points worth acknowledging. One, yes, there is this Oedipal element between King Knight and Pridemoor thorughout the story. Two, King Knight's supporters ultimately did very little for him, as the Enchantress rightly noted. However, resolving either of those would not really fix the critical problem: King Knight did not and would not change at all in the story. For the first point, King Knight's issue runs deeper than an Oedipal complex in that it's clear he never had a father figure in his life. Even if Pridemoor weren't there, that would still be evident in his behavior. In fact, I would argue that he doesn't have such a complex because he treated his mother more like an NPC in his narrative. He was protective of her, but in a highly solipsistic, possessive, almost sociopathic sort of way. At no point does he actually say or do anything nice for her, his only comments to her centered on offense or embarassment. Once he attains the throne, he has no further use for her, and only shows any response when she declares Pridemoor can move into his old room (which he still sees as his) and then abandons/disowns him (which is probably the only time he shows any sense of awareness at what he's done).

Per the second point, even if his supporters did help him in some capacity, he was still very detached from the world around him. Consequently, I doubt he would've recognized their help as being that. If anything, if they did attempt to help him, they may have seen the red flags much earlier. Of course, that would've merely accelerated the inevitable betrayal.

I think someone said a while back that the whole meta-concept of Joustus (especially with Cardia in particular) was a giant mockery of anime such as Yu-Gi-Oh! that has this kind of thing of "win at cards to save the world" as a plot. There's some merit to that. But I also think Joustus, and King Knight's relationship with it, also plays into a common thread of certain loser archetypes that deal with a lack of awareness and imagination. Namely, there's a belief among some that completing certain tasks in this mechanical, almost objective way will get you what you want. (Think The Secret or pick-up artists) The problem with this of course is that doing something like this requires completely disregarding the world around you as well as treating people as though they are mere abstracts and objects. Yacht Club Games kept that in line with King Knight: He really believed he would become King if he won at Joustus and defeated the Joustus Judges, and that's all he wanted throughout this story. Nothing else mattered. So of course he ignored the fact that he developed this heroic following, and done a feat not matched by any of the other Knights in their games. That wasn't important to him. Of course he saw Pridemoor as an enemy, even though the latter all but saw him as his heir. He could not see beyond the crown because he was a loser at heart, and he hated being reminded of that by Pridemoor's presence. He probably would've betrayed everyone for lesser reasons than he did.

But most importantly, King Knight is at the end of the day, a loser. This is why Yacht Club Games ends the game with Shovel Knight entering the throne room to take out King Knight: To emphasize that all he got for betraying everyone and LARPing his way to a gilded vision of kingliness was to get kicked to the curb with ease by a real hero, just as he reached his "zenith." In other words, to reinforce his place in the world as a loser.

Still, I'm willing to consider what you feel on this, since others do feel similarly. I think the dividing point is how one viewed King Knight throughout the story. The moment I saw him living at home with his mom, I immediately considered him a manchild, and knew right then he already had the foundation of throwing out any good he does in the game. There's no points that he willingly does something for someone, even for the sake of self-interest, and I knew he was a narcissist (or a solipsist, at the least). (The possible exception is the Spinwulves, but I think that defines the rule, given they're dogs) I think people were so focused on his goofy demeanor that they missed these points, which is why the ending seems to feel bad. But I think it was a perfect way to bring his character to full fruition.

[Tenlade]

After releasing king knight's campaign, there was a trailer for a new game: Shovel knight dig, No word on its release date yet.

I love the Enchantress as a villain, King of Cards, Specter of Torment, and to a lesser extent Black Knight's story show how her greatest strength is being able to twist and bend people to her, will be it through corruption or threats. I also like how she seems to have an entire sub section of her tower set aside that's just a place for her minions to hang out, play cards, have a drink. This is in line with how feasts are thrown for the Order of No Quarter. Rec time and parties are another way to keep loyal servants.

The Enchantress seems to be the only one smart enough to know what king knight wants and offer it, everyone else is kinda an idiot misunderstanding the worlds least subtle jerk.

Curiously, specter knight's campagin went hard into his backstory, King knight's drops a few hints but doenst explicitly spell out anything.I'm wondering if they're saving it for another game. also, I still think he seems less manchild and more actual child: he seems to have a child's grasp on what a king is and doesnt seem to be obsessed with fame, fortune, finding a queen to romance or even if people besides his mom likes him, just "am I a ruler yet yes/no?"
Or maybe im just projecting becuase I love the royalty aesthetic and playing as him, and after the past 4 years, Want absolutley nothing to do with "manchild" characters, especially ones that cover everything in gold and see themselves as the true unquestionable ruler.


edit: well this seems like a half-assed post after the one before me

[Grounder]

Maybe the ending would have gone down easier for people if there was also a non-canon ending where King Knight is just the self-centered idiot most of the game would have you believe he is and not the mustache-twirling villain he jumps to being at Giga Cardia.

And it really is kind of a sudden jump to me. From wanting to be king because of an inflated ego to being a tyrant just because?

I've revised my opinion of the ending somewhat, I guess. There was no way Pridemoor could have realistically stopped King Knight from changing sides, but they don't really build up to him being quite that bad very well over the course of the game.

[Ditocoaf]

I would like to counter your thoughts on the narrative, raocow. I think one thing Yacht Club Games did was deliver an incredible narrative with King of Cards, in the sense that it really defined King Knight as a villain you hate pretty effectively and are glad to take out at the beginning of most of the games.

In essence, this story could be summed up as "What happens when you give a manchild a chance at greatness without requiring him to grow up?" [cut for length]

I think raocow wasn't really denouncing the narrative value of having King Knight be so awful, or disagreeing that it was an intentional part of his character from the start. It was just a straightforward statement that it felt bad to play as someone like that.

You spend a lot of time overcoming challenging gameplay segments thinking of this dude as "me", and then text boxes pop up showing that "me" being horrible. Depending on how strongly you project onto the player character in games, the entire ending cutscene can feel like it's saying "good job, asshole, look what you did".

I love that they did this, it's really neat and unique to see such a complete depiction of an unredeemed jerk and his story arc. But it also does just straight-up feel bad, probably hitting some people more than others.


So yeah, thatguyif, you're not really running counter to raocow's concerns. He said: "It's kinda neat. I just wish they'd tried... I don't know. I don't know what I wish, I don't know what I want, I'm just saying this feels weirdly unsatisfying". And like, I'd say "weirdly unsatisfying" is, not quite on purpose, but an accepted part of the whole weirdness the developers committed to with the idea to play an entire campaign as the manchild who gets manipulated into being a low-level lackey for the actual villain. They sacrificed some of the usual feelings of accomplishment you get at the end of a game, in order to accomplish something unique, and raocow was feeling that sacrifice in the moment and commenting on it.

The developers did try to dispel some of those negative feelings with the post-credits scene where Shovel Knight walks in, and the general "congrats on beating all four campaigns" you get if you played them in order.


...sorry if I'm speaking for you too much, raocow, or if I misinterpreted. Just had a rambly moment here.

[Ditocoaf]

Maybe the ending would have gone down easier for people if there was also a non-canon ending where King Knight is just the self-centered idiot most of the game would have you believe he is and not the mustache-twirling villain he jumps to being at Giga Cardia.

And it really is kind of a sudden jump to me. From wanting to be king because of an inflated ego to being a tyrant just because?

I've revised my opinion of the ending somewhat, I guess. There was no way Pridemoor could have realistically stopped King Knight from changing sides, but they don't really build up to him being quite that bad very well over the course of the game.

I interpret King Knight's "rule with an iron fist" tyrant speech to Cardia as just more posturing. He doesn't actually have a fully-formed picture of what he'd do as a ruler, he just knows he doesn't want to do the hero thing and tries to sound in control of what's going on by scaling up his rhetoric to match the exaggerated scale of the situation. He's a kid (a bully) acting tough with no real plan in mind.

[Donut]

I don't know about those who played all four campaigns, but if I got this ending and knew this was the last part of the Shovel Knight saga, I'd want to do one last playthrough of Shovel of Hope to bring everything full circle and give the happy ending King Knight's campaign most certainly did not have.

[Xenesis]

I don't know about those who played all four campaigns, but if I got this ending and knew this was the last part of the Shovel Knight saga, I'd want to do one last playthrough of Shovel of Hope to bring everything full circle and give the happy ending King Knight's campaign most certainly did not have.

Sounds like a perfectly good reason to do a NG+ on Shovel of Hope, TBH!

But yeah, King Knight is an asshole and it becomes all the more satisfying to beat him after you realise how pathetic he is, as both a boss and as a person.

[SAJewers]

After releasing king knight's campaign, there was a trailer for a new game: Shovel knight dig, No word on its release date yet.

they also helped publish this back in january

[Alice]

Had anyone looked even slightly deeper (which only Spectre Knight and Cardia were able to, though both were serving their own agendas), they would've seen King Knight as who he was: A self-absorbed, emotionally stunted young man with delusions of grandeur to drown out his lot in life. When you really think about it, King Knight's seemingly silly behavior he took dead seriously, and when you have someone like that, it's rather horrifying. He got smothered by his mother into "following his dreams," lacked any self-awareness of his situation, and was completely detached from the world around him, seeing it as flavor text to the personal story in his head. It's certainly someone you would never trust as a leader. He would not have gotten as far as he did without a cast of people who, for whatever reason, projected their own ideals of kingliness and heroism onto him and just expected him to be the hero without interrogating him in any way. It's an interesting twist in that in no way did King Knight actually do anything villainous until the very end. Instead, he LARPed his way through his quest, not once being even questioned on his delusions, perceptions, or ideals. Giga Cardia was the only moment before the end where the silliness was stripped away and revealed the monster underneath, and by then it was already too late.

It's not too surprising that things turned out this way. The signs were there for anyone paying attention. You need look no further than recentish politics in the US for a shining example of basically exactly what King Knight is and how effective his bullshit actually is with real people. (Though I'd actually say that King Knight is significantly more subtle than that real world example, lol...)

[FourteenthOrder]

I'm in the group who absolutely loves the ending. From beginning to end, King Knight is fundamentally self-centered through and through with no desire to grow in any way. He helps a handful of people as he goes, but it's almost entirely either by accident or with ulterior motives. The people around him sorta just project what they want to see onto him and fail to realize until it's too late that they've always just been means to an end.

He's in a position where he could very well become a legitimate king in the future, but he doesn't want to wait or put in the effort, and with minimal hesitation throws away everyone and becomes a puppet to get the title of "king" right away. Behind his buffoonery he's just a terrible person in a way that's relatively down-to-earth.

The other campaigns consistently showed him to be egotistical and petty, and his own drives the point home that that's just who he is. His status as a static character is used very effectively, and I think that works especially well as a prequel story.

[churine]

the ending also feels more satisfying if you think of it as the story of the people; their backstory, who they were, what happened to them, and what they want, and ask where will they go from there-- it makes you see the townsfolk as individuals
king knight's own story is for the most part, the enclosed self-made tragedy of the one random jerk, who gained power from happenstance and random talent, and united and ruined the lives of many