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ASMT 11th Anniversary LP - Hey There Guy

this is the place where lps are being talked about. it's important to talk about games being played on the internet.
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Re: ASMT 11th Anniversary LP - Hey There Guy

Post by Argumentable »

Watching Overgrown Fortress again - I have no idea what I was thinking with it. The actual castle part is fine, but it's something I know I could make look so much better now. In fact, it's a level I've actually partially remade before at least once. I don't know why it starts underground (though I do remember that section is there for midpoint purposes) or why it goes into the SKY instead of, say, treetops or something that fits with the theme a little better. I kind of dislike it in an "I can do way better now" way, but EH, I'm pretty sure it's my first level that I made for the hack and probably my first actual okay level ever.

Still don't agree with the sky portion music but oh well (that's a common problem I have with a lot of my levels)
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Re: ASMT 11th Anniversary LP - Hey There Guy

Post by tangy »

At least losing the egg in emerald stronghold doesnt cost you a life or boot you back to the overworld
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Re: ASMT 11th Anniversary LP - Hey There Guy

Post by Crow »

A Super Mario Thing
i've honestly never played a video game in my life
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Re: ASMT 11th Anniversary LP - Hey There Guy

Post by Leet »

peoples desire to retroactively put things from later asmt games in earlier ones and destroy all sense of series progression is something that has always frustrated me. i.e. i agree that it's better like this
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
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Re: ASMT 11th Anniversary LP - Hey There Guy

Post by Ashan »

Yeah I see zero appeal in remastering ASMT.

Updating the sprites to "higher quality" artwork and fixing segments that are deemed "bad" just injects the perfectionism-run-amok attitude that leads to end products like SMWCP and the messy process of pulling A2MT together, into a game that turned out great because of lack of that. Obviously there's some nostalgia talking here, but I think a lot of the charm of ASMT comes from the attitude of being hesitant in saying "no" and not blindly conforming to standards of what makes a good rom hack. Not too dissimilar to the VIP series (I'm sure I'm not the first person to make the comparison that ASMT is basically western VIP), and is taken to the n-th degree in YUMP. If ASMT didn't have that, it wouldn't be all that memorable. And even in terms of swapping out the sprites... was there anyone who saw SMW Redrawn and thought it was the definitive version of SMW?
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Re: ASMT 11th Anniversary LP - Hey There Guy

Post by SAJewers »

Ashan wrote: 3 years ago Yeah I see zero appeal in remastering ASMT.

Updating the sprites to "higher quality" artwork and fixing segments that are deemed "bad" just injects the perfectionism-run-amok attitude that leads to end products like SMWCP and the messy process of pulling A2MT together, into a game that turned out great because of lack of that. Obviously there's some nostalgia talking here, but I think a lot of the charm of ASMT comes from the attitude of being hesitant in saying "no" and not blindly conforming to standards of what makes a good rom hack. Not too dissimilar to the VIP series (I'm sure I'm not the first person to make the comparison that ASMT is basically western VIP), and is taken to the n-th degree in YUMP. If ASMT didn't have that, it wouldn't be all that memorable. And even in terms of swapping out the sprites... was there anyone who saw SMW Redrawn and thought it was the definitive version of SMW?
Y'know what, I'll agree with that.

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Re: ASMT 11th Anniversary LP - Hey There Guy

Post by J. J. W. Mezun »

Many people don’t remember this, but back in the early 2010s ’twas a capital offense to not put “Running Hell” somewhere in your hack.

I find it weird that people seem to think ASMT was better than its sequel for being less perfectionist, when the latter seemed to be the bigger mess. I dunno, I think I remember the Fish Market game being mo’ interesting precisely ’cause ’twas an e’en jankier mess. Tho, I will admit it didn’t have

“The Final Countdown” or “Sweet Child of Mine”

, so that’s 1 advantage for the original.
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Re: ASMT 11th Anniversary LP - Hey There Guy

Post by 10204307 »

raocow, episode 2, about the forest map theme wrote:Why is this so good? Like, someone out there who knows music theory, explain to me why I feel like this is so good.
I'm a bit late on this, but I do happen to know a lot about functional music theory, and I really like the World 2 theme, so I decided to transcribe the piece and analyze it a bit.

First, let's look at the two-bar intro:
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Right away, the C minor - F major - C minor chord progression immediately seems to put us in the key of C dorian. Dorian is what's known as a "mode", specifically a mode of minor. In this case, that means we've taken the C minor scale and raised the sixth note by one semitone, so instead of the note A flat, we're using A natural. Dorian is a shade brighter than minor; it's less dark and more adventurous, which makes it perfect for a forest theme.

The other thing that really sets the tone for this piece is the marimba, and specifically the rhythm of the notes it's playing. Although the notes change as the piece goes on, the rhythm stays the same. You'll notice that it comes in slightly off-beat, an eighth note after the start of the measure. This helps contribute to the adventurous mood, an effect which would be lessened if the marimba were to play on the first beat.

Very quickly, we get the start of the melody, played by what seems to be an oboe:
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Much like the marimba, the melody comes in on the off-beat. It starts with a scalar runup from C to G, which is a great way of further reinforcing the key of the piece. The second bar of this melody is extremely well-composed - notice how we get this little A - Bb - A motion, which is then immediately followed by G - F - G. This sort of over-and-then-under move just sounds super smooth and satisfying.

But there's actually a reason why it's good for the melody to end on G here. Well, two reasons, actually. First, G is a perfect fifth above C, meaning it sounds very consonant and stable when played over a C minor or C major chord. Secondly, C dorian actually uses the same notes as G minor, so G is a very natural note to land on here. The main difference between the two scales is that in C dorian, the "tonic" or most resolved-sounding note of the key is C, whereas in G minor it's G. We can tell that this piece isn't in G minor because the chord progression and the underlying bassline constantly resolves to C. Because this phrase of the melody doesn't fully resolve to C, it tells our ears that the melody isn't done yet. It's essentially a musical "question" that has yet to be answered.

Speaking of the chord progression, the chord progression here is different from the intro. Here, the chords are changing every two beats, and the progression is a pretty basic C minor - Eb major - F major - C minor. C minor and Eb major share two notes in common (Eb and G) which means switching between them is extremely smooth and hard to notice - it just moves the music in a subtly brighter direction. Then we go to that F major chord, which gives us some more of that dorian flavor thanks to its A natural note, and then resolves back to C minor, just like it did in the intro.

Let's move on to the next two bars:
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The melody here starts in the exact same way as the first two bars, but then goes up a little bit higher than before- instead of A - Bb - A, we get Bb - C - Bb. This is a very common way of structuring melodies, especially in video game music, and especially in the Mario series. Having the melody start the same way helps give it extra cohesion, and then having the melody change afterward helps it evolve a bit and keeps the listener's interest.

The next two bars after that are even more different:
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The melody seems to be starting the same way again, but then instead of going up to G it suddenly drops us down to C! The melody then proceeds in the same way it did the first time, except several pitches lower (specifically a perfect fifth lower). This is also a very common trick in melody writing - you just take a little bit of a previous melody and then shift it up or down a few pitches, which, once again, keeps it cohesive while also taking the listener to a new place. In this case, it's extra satisfying, because the melody has finally resolved to C, answering the musical question that the previous bars were asking.

The chord progression here has once again changed as well. That Ab that we've been avoiding for most of the piece is here, forming part of an Ab major - Bb major - C minor cadence. This kind of cadence, where you walk up to the tonic chord using the two chords that immediately precede it in the key, is one of the extremely common resolutions in minor keys. In my opinion, I think this is the best cadence for this specific song to resolve with. Another possible and extremely common resolution would be Ab major - G major - C minor, which could easily be achieved just by turning all of the B flats in the first half of the second bar into B naturals and then moving the bass note down to G. However, although I think this sounds good on its own, it feels much more eerie and less adventurous compared to the Ab - Bb - Cm cadence, and doesn't really fit with the vibe of the song.

Here's a rar with a midi file in it so you can listen to what I mean - the first resolution uses the original Ab - Bb - Cm cadence, while the second one uses the modified Ab - G - Cm cadence. (The rar also has a pdf of the transcript in it.)

That's about it! After this, the last two bars just repeat one more time in order to round out the section to a nice 8 bars (most sections in music are either 8 or 16 or 32 bars, so we've generally come to expect to hear that many) and then it loops back to the intro. This song might be short, but its simplicity and cohesion make it a very strong and memorable piece. It's essentially immaculately crafted, and in my opinion, could fit right in with an actual Mario game's soundtrack.

Or, in other words:
Ashan wrote:The reason the forest music is good is because it has no mistakes in it
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Re: ASMT 11th Anniversary LP - Hey There Guy

Post by Ashan »

J. J. W. Mezun wrote: 3 years ago Many people don’t remember this, but back in the early 2010s ’twas a capital offense to not put “Running Hell” somewhere in your hack.

I find it weird that people seem to think ASMT was better than its sequel for being less perfectionist, when the latter seemed to be the bigger mess. I dunno, I think I remember the Fish Market game being mo’ interesting precisely ’cause ’twas an e’en jankier mess. Tho, I will admit it didn’t have

“The Final Countdown” or “Sweet Child of Mine”

, so that’s 1 advantage for the original.
I think you missed most of the process of putting together A2MT. My join date, May 26 2010, was the day raocow put out a YouTube video announcing that A2MT development has begun and you can start reserving levels and asset slots and whatnot. Things got off to a pretty grooving start, but then there was a lot of "this level isn't very good, redo it." And that's not to say that was always wrong; I was 13 at the time, had only made one horrible YouTube hack previously, and shat out a bland move-from-left-to-right level for A2MT. This was rejected with the reasoning that "every level should be good and memorable," and so it was turned into a slightly different, albeit still bland move-from-left-to-right level albeit with the Y and X buttons disabled, and a bunch of poor-man's Tails_155 knockoff land tile shenanigans. But I think so much time was spent on the perfectionism and having people go back to the drawing board that nothing ever got done, and the project slowly puttered out, I think was passed hands a few times because nobody wanted to manage it, and eventually was officially announced "dead" after 3-4 years.

The game was kinda half-released as "zombie A2MT" in 2014, which was just whatever completed levels there were, thrown into a grid on an empty map. There wasn't really any quality-assurance (I recall my level had a bunch of layer issues when it got imported), it was basically just "alright here's the levels so that work didn't go to complete waste." (I actually never watched raocow's LP of this, I just got a DM one day where someone told me my level was played if I was interested in seeing it).

Then in 2016 some random guy showed up and I guess just... finished the game? I actually didn't even really know this happened until recently, a lot of A2MT's release happened during a span of time I was less active around here. But you can check out the thread anyway:
https://talkhaus.raocow.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=16886

Anyway, all of this is to say, when I say the perfectionism caused A2MT to be a mess, I don't really mean the final game was trying too hard to be perfect, I mean perfectionism caused the entire project to fall apart and it probably would have never actually released if it wasn't for some guy coming along and finishing it himself.

Further reading in this post (which also touches on there being the issue of raocow advertising the project on youtube, bringing in idiots like me), and also in that whole subforum.
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Re: ASMT 11th Anniversary LP - Hey There Guy

Post by FPzero »

Perfection is also to blame for why SMWCP2 was never released, and to a lesser extent still hasn't seen a release despite active revival efforts.
10204307 wrote: 3 years ago *music theory*
This is an awesome post and I wanted to thank you for it!
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Re: ASMT 11th Anniversary LP - Hey There Guy

Post by raocow »

yeah that music post was awesome, thank you!
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Re: ASMT 11th Anniversary LP - Hey There Guy

Post by Kilgamayan »

Having never had access to behind-the-scenes decisions or cared enough to research things, I am reasonably positive the Super Marisa World music in today's video was made because I had originally signed up to dev a level for this game, and it was going to be a reasonably faithful recreation of one of the Super Marisa World Sky World levels (I think 2-1-1). I got as far as asking Kil if he'd do the song, and then flaked like a coward because the entire dev process was way too confusing and terrifying. >_>

BUT I could be misremembering asking Kil to make the song and/or the circumstances of the dev project led to the song being made independent of my originally-planned contribution

(I am also reasonably positive the Super Marisa World Hakugyokurou theme appears in one of the ghost houses levels because I suggested it would be a fun musical swerve out of nowhere and Kil listened to me on p. much all matters music, though the same disclaimer applies)
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Re: ASMT 11th Anniversary LP - Hey There Guy

Post by Rixithechao »

So I likely won't be popping back into this thread much for a while, but hopefully I'll be back before rao's moved on to the next game.

With that said, before I go I want to add my gratitude for the music analysis to the pile as well! I'm a more-or-less self-taught composer who mostly relies on a developed intuition and has trouble retaining music theory knowledge past the more basic stuff about chord progressions, so some of it admittedly took a bit to digest. But it was still a fun read, felt like I was going through the script of an 8-Bit Music Theory video!

It would be awesome if you could give the other overworld tunes similar breakdowns as they come up in the LP. I won't be around to check them out myself initially, but I'll be catching up on everything when I'm back anyway and it sounds like the folks who will be active in this thread would very much appreciate the insight as well. Though If you won't be available yourself or don't feel up to transcribing and breaking down the seven other songs (eight if we count the W1 theme), that's completely understandable. Either way, thanks again, 10204307!
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Re: ASMT 11th Anniversary LP - Hey There Guy

Post by KobaBeach »

Argumentable wrote: 3 years ago Watching Overgrown Fortress again - I have no idea what I was thinking with it. The actual castle part is fine, but it's something I know I could make look so much better now. In fact, it's a level I've actually partially remade before at least once. I don't know why it starts underground (though I do remember that section is there for midpoint purposes) or why it goes into the SKY instead of, say, treetops or something that fits with the theme a little better. I kind of dislike it in an "I can do way better now" way, but EH, I'm pretty sure it's my first level that I made for the hack and probably my first actual okay level ever.
if im not mistaken the reason you made overgrown fortress Like This was specifically to piss off 2009 era SMWC's obsession with thematic consistency

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Re: ASMT 11th Anniversary LP - Hey There Guy

Post by KobaBeach »

ハーイ スカーイ フラーイ
ブルたちの外便所
行け!帰れ!行け!

i tried listening to this on my iPhone while playing legend of heroes 3 white witch/2 moonlight witch pc (it's in fullscreen only and dxwnd doesnt cooperate very well with it at least in win8.1) but i couldnt pay attention so

HaSuFura is very much just baby Smoooooth! and I'm here for it. Rixi or whomstever pls implement feather flight controls as Lua code for A2XT Episode whatever so we can have our very own !htooooomS (High Sky Fly but with backwards controls)

outhouse music is deutsch rap which. is a choice. but rap is cool and i really need to listen to more of it

babelfishing heaven is a very sky place dangerous will be a thing (actually it'll be 天国はすごく天空場所やばい or something)

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Red switch in the puzzle
Let's live! !!
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Splashed Corps (TL note: who the fuck has been feeding english pokemon scripts to google translate, hane is jumping/bouncing)
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Yoshi's warehouse
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Hi Sky Fly
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Re: ASMT 11th Anniversary LP - Hey There Guy

Post by Argumentable »

KobaBeach wrote: 3 years ago if im not mistaken the reason you made overgrown fortress Like This was specifically to piss off 2009 era SMWC's obsession with thematic consistency
No, at least now I'm a big fan of themes making sense and things having a reason. I don't mind weird (like the trapped koopas/goopas/whatever) but this is a bit too chaotic for me now
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Re: ASMT 11th Anniversary LP - Hey There Guy

Post by tangy »

over/under for raocow's demo count at the end of the project?

i predict some value close to 125-150
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Re: ASMT 11th Anniversary LP - Hey There Guy

Post by KobaBeach »

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Re: ASMT 11th Anniversary LP - Hey There Guy

Post by TiKi »

Ashan wrote: 3 years ago Yeah I see zero appeal in remastering ASMT.

Updating the sprites to "higher quality" artwork and fixing segments that are deemed "bad" just injects the perfectionism-run-amok attitude that leads to end products like SMWCP and the messy process of pulling A2MT together, into a game that turned out great because of lack of that. Obviously there's some nostalgia talking here, but I think a lot of the charm of ASMT comes from the attitude of being hesitant in saying "no" and not blindly conforming to standards of what makes a good rom hack. Not too dissimilar to the VIP series (I'm sure I'm not the first person to make the comparison that ASMT is basically western VIP), and is taken to the n-th degree in YUMP. If ASMT didn't have that, it wouldn't be all that memorable. And even in terms of swapping out the sprites... was there anyone who saw SMW Redrawn and thought it was the definitive version of SMW?
SMW Redrawn wasn't even fully redrawn, it had sprite rips from Mario Party Advance and Super Princess Peach that stuck out like a sore thumb
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Re: ASMT 11th Anniversary LP - Hey There Guy

Post by Kilgamayan »

Potentially lukewarm take: If the people that actively want to see an ASMT remaster do it themselves or pay other people to do it, more power to 'em
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Re: ASMT 11th Anniversary LP - Hey There Guy

Post by Ashan »

I didn't even realize the moon was 3 beets. I always thought it was some weird other vegetable or gourd or something
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Re: ASMT 11th Anniversary LP - Hey There Guy

Post by CrispyMWHC »

Ashan wrote: 3 years ago
Then in 2016 some random guy showed up and I guess just... finished the game? I actually didn't even really know this happened until recently, a lot of A2MT's release happened during a span of time I was less active around here. But you can check out the thread anyway:
https://talkhaus.raocow.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=16886
This is why I hope for an eventual rao LP of the finished product. A sufficient amount of time has passed since the fish market, and it'd be a different experience even if some levels are remembered, as now they'd be properly ordered and paced. Plus actual overworld and map music.

As for today's episode, man, you can really see where cowman has improved with SMW flight mechanics vs the first playthrough.
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Re: ASMT 11th Anniversary LP - Hey There Guy

Post by raocow »

the one thing that gets in the way of a proper a2mt re/play is that one of the level is apparently broken. like a crucial block in the donkey kong imitation level makes the level not work.

otherwise I'd love to give it another shot. see if the game feels better with my higher mario levels ?!
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Re: ASMT 11th Anniversary LP - Hey There Guy

Post by SAJewers »

replay all the demo universe games /s
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Re: ASMT 11th Anniversary LP - Hey There Guy

Post by Leet »

The VIP level this is based on was in like world 6 of VIP 1, not the "super endgame", looks like raocow needs to play vip 1 again
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
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