La-Mulana 2 - fish. it is a fish. it's true.

[raocow]

but there's no rng in this fight. he always does the same thing in the same order every time.

[Alice]

but there's no rng in this fight. he always does the same thing in the same order every time.

If that's the case now then they changed the fight some time after I fought him. Because when I fought him, it was completely random what he'd do. I had multiple attempts against him where I'd fight him for several minutes straight and get maybe 1-2 times he'd finally go on to the right side of the screen where I could hit him. It was infuriating as hell.

[Voltgloss]

I fought Jormungand for the first time in the very first released game build. He was entirely pattern-based then, and he's been entirely pattern-based in every other build where I've fought him. It's a *long* pattern, but a pattern all the same.

Edit for clarity: When I say he's been entirely pattern-based, I mean what raocow said: he always does the same things in the same order every time. I'd definitely agree that the boss fight is open to criticism for being a bit *boring* once you learn that pattern. But the one thing it simply isn't, is RNG.

[Voltgloss]

He'd spent a solid 90+% of his time on the left side of the screen where I couldn't do shit to him.

Jormungand

can be attacked while on the left side using flares. Also apparently you can back up into his foot and hit him with weapons that have a up/backswing, although I personally prefer not to as I find spacing the hotboxes difficult.

This sort of problem is very common with every boss in this game whereas in LM1 you could pretty much attack at all times with few exceptions.

In my opinion, 7 of 8 LM1 guardians involve some degree of waiting for openings to attack. Summarized:

- Amphisbaena: Wait for the heads to dip closer.
- Sakit: A Carol boss. Avoid attacks until he launches his arm, climb it to strike the weak point. RNG as to whether he's going to launch his arm or not.
- Ellmac: Wait for the train tracks to bring you high enough to hit the face.
- Bahamut: Wait for the face to drop towards you. Have to wait out the entire cheese puffs attack.
- Viy: Wait for the eye to extend. RNG as to whether it's going to extend or launch laser blasts at you.
- Baphomet: First phase can attack constantly. Second phase, wait for it to appear low enough.
- Palenque: The one exception. Can attack constantly, like it does to you.
- Tiamat: Wait for the tidal wave attack to finish. Wait for the octo laser attack to finish.

[Voltgloss]

doesnt help that a lot of these bosses are mostly remixes of Lm1 bosses except now you spend about 10 seconds waiting for them to stop stomping around in the background and actually fight you

Which bosses are you referring to and what LM1 bosses are they remixes of? This is a legit question as I'm unclear what you're referencing. Stomping around in the background certainly applies to Kujata, but are you saying it's a remix of a LM1 boss? Which one?

The comparisons between Palenque and Jormungand are obvious from the graphical presentation, use of the Pochette Key, and use of vehicles; but in terms of the actual boss *gameplay* they seem quite different to me.

[Alice]

I fought Jormungand for the first time in the very first released game build. He was entirely pattern-based then, and he's been entirely pattern-based in every other build where I've fought him. It's a *long* pattern, but a pattern all the same.

Edit for clarity: When I say he's been entirely pattern-based, I mean what raocow said: he always does the same things in the same order every time. I'd definitely agree that the boss fight is open to criticism for being a bit *boring* once you learn that pattern. But the one thing it simply isn't, is RNG.

Maybe my game bugged on me then because I had a distinctly different time fighting Jormungand than raocow did. One thing I definitely had issues with that raocow did not was Jormungand repeatedly doing that annoying move where he dashes to the right and then jumps back to the left. As in several times in a row. I distinctly remember that being a problem for me in nearly every attempt and it seemed to show up completely randomly. Sometimes the fight would open with him doing that, other times I'd get close to beating him before it happened.

In my opinion, 7 of 8 LM1 guardians involve some degree of waiting for openings to attack. Summarized:

- Amphisbaena: Wait for the heads to dip closer.
- Sakit: A Carol boss. Avoid attacks until he launches his arm, climb it to strike the weak point. RNG as to whether he's going to launch his arm or not.
- Ellmac: Wait for the train tracks to bring you high enough to hit the face.
- Bahamut: Wait for the face to drop towards you. Have to wait out the entire cheese puffs attack.
- Viy: Wait for the eye to extend. RNG as to whether it's going to extend or launch laser blasts at you.
- Baphomet: First phase can attack constantly. Second phase, wait for it to appear low enough.
- Palenque: The one exception. Can attack constantly, like it does to you.
- Tiamat: Wait for the tidal wave attack to finish. Wait for the octo laser attack to finish.

In most of those cases, the issues you mentioned can be counteracted with subweapons. That's not really the case for LM2 bosses though which are frequently completely out of range.

For LM1 bosses:

For Amphisbaena and Sakit you'll almost certainly have shuriken available which should be able to almost always hit them. (Though Sakit's second phase seems to change his hitbox which makes it a bit more difficult to land.)

For Ellmac you can obtain flares before defeating him which makes it possible to always hit him, shuriken also can help in this fight since sometimes it's pretty difficult to get into melee range.

For Bahamut it's mostly just flares (bombs and earth spears would be viable but I'm actually not sure if you can realistically obtain them before him) but that should be enough.

For Viy you should have rolling shuriken before you reach him and have a good chance of having earth spears. On top of that caltrops, shuriken, and chakram are all viable as well. Bombs are a good choice if you have them but iirc they're pretty difficult to obtain before reaching him.

Baphomet is viable through earth spears and flares in particular. I think you can have bombs before fighting her as well, though those are a little more dangerous to use in that fight due to the proximity you need to be to her body in order to actually hit her with one.

With Tiamat, the wave attack is a short and infrequent attack anyways. The octo laser attack I'm pretty sure is the one I mentioned. It's dangerous but you can definitely still attack her during it. If you can do the finger puzzle required you should be able to hit her with earth spears, caltrops, or rolling shurikens as you're dodging the laser. (Bombs too but those are probably a bad idea since you'll be platforming near where the explosion will be.) I just don't recommend it since it's stupidly easy to mess up your platforming because of it and get hit.

For the LM2 bosses seen so far in raocow's lp:

Fafnir spends huge amount of time completely out of your reach, even if you ignore the attacks such as his flame breath that cover large chunks of the screen. You're likely to only have shuriken when you fight him and probably not a large amount on top of that. So on top of spending much of the battle out of reach, you also have to risk getting into melee range which is fairly dangerous against him.

Vritra is more a matter of managing to dodge while still getting hits in than anything. Shuriken are still likely the only subweapon you'll have at that point and LM2 is a lot more stringent on money early on than LM1 was so you're likely not to have ample supplies. On top of that getting into melee range is actually really dangerous due to some of its attacks.

Kujata spends large amounts of time out of reach. And when its weak points are open, they're frequently in places that are difficult to actually hit. The only thing I'm aware of that you can use to hit them much of the time is earth spears. And earth spears don't do enough damage to make the whole fight viable with the amount of earth spears you're likely to have.

And I don't think I need to go back over Jormungand since he's the one that spawned this conversation to begin with so I'll just leave it at him spending much of the fight out of your reach. The same concepts are true of most of the remaining Guardians, however.

[KobaBeach]

super late but eros is pretty hot in a cute geezer sort of way (see: hogen from housamo)

[Voltgloss]

In most of those cases, the issues you mentioned can be counteracted with subweapons. That's not really the case for LM2 bosses though which are frequently completely out of range.

The below doesn't cover every boss, just some specific additional observations re: subweapon use on guardians (as I do agree with quite a few of your comments).

LM1:

Sakit's first phase is invulnerable to all subweapons. Even the gun. Until his face falls off, you must melee him, meaning you must wait for the arm attack.

No matter what weapon or subweapon you're using on Bahamut, you must wait out his from-the-background cheese puff attack. (Also I have no idea how you'd effectively use earth spears against him. Remember in LM1 they only shoot straight down.)

Spears are required to reach Viy, so yes, they're an excellent option for fighting it. You still need to wait for its eye to actually open. And you need to wait out its big laser attacks, as they destroy subweapons while firing.

Again, I have no idea how you'd effectively use straight-down-shooting-only spears against Baphomet.

In Tiamat's final phase, she spends approximately half of her time using either the flood or the octo laser attack.

LM2 bosses seen so far:

Fafnir definitely suffers from a "you're locked into a small section of the world until you defeat it and therefore have limited resources" problem which doesn't apply to any of the LM1 bosses - and, as raocow's LP has shown, doesn't apply to Vritra either. The enforced waiting on Fafnir's advances/retreats does put it, in my opinion, on Sakit-tier level of waiting.

Spears do help tremendously on Kujata (and do the same damage per hit as the Knife does). Rationing them for the most difficult-to-hit targets (the rightmost target in the second phase, and the final target) is, I've found, the way to go.

Jormungand can be attacked while on the left by using flares.

[Alice]

In most of those cases, the issues you mentioned can be counteracted with subweapons. That's not really the case for LM2 bosses though which are frequently completely out of range.

The below doesn't cover every boss, just some specific additional observations re: subweapon use on guardians (as I do agree with quite a few of your comments).

LM1:

Sakit's first phase is invulnerable to all subweapons. Even the gun. Until his face falls off, you must melee him, meaning you must wait for the arm attack.

No matter what weapon or subweapon you're using on Bahamut, you must wait out his from-the-background cheese puff attack. (Also I have no idea how you'd effectively use earth spears against him. Remember in LM1 they only shoot straight down.)

Spears are required to reach Viy, so yes, they're an excellent option for fighting it. You still need to wait for its eye to actually open. And you need to wait out its big laser attacks, as they destroy subweapons while firing.

Again, I have no idea how you'd effectively use straight-down-shooting-only spears against Baphomet.

In Tiamat's final phase, she spends approximately half of her time using either the flood or the octo laser attack.

LM2 bosses seen so far:

Fafnir definitely suffers from a "you're locked into a small section of the world until you defeat it and therefore have limited resources" problem which doesn't apply to any of the LM1 bosses - and, as raocow's LP has shown, doesn't apply to Vritra either. The enforced waiting on Fafnir's advances/retreats does put it, in my opinion, on Sakit-tier level of waiting.

Spears do help tremendously on Kujata (and do the same damage per hit as the Knife does). Rationing them for the most difficult-to-hit targets (the rightmost target in the second phase, and the final target) is, I've found, the way to go.

Jormungand can be attacked while on the left by using flares.

Yup, you're totally right on the earth spears. I'd mixed them up with how they worked in LM2 so they're actually invalid in most of the places I suggested them except just Tiamat I think.

As for Sakit and Bahamut, I'm not sure if I was aware of that for his first phase. The first phase is so easy that I can't recall using anything other than the whip/knife/axe since it's just faster that way. I'd spaced Bahamut's cheese puff attack which is also a good point. When he's not using that attack you can use those other methods but during that attack, which he can use very frequently near the end of the fight, he's in the background so you can't hit him.

Jormungand can be attacked while on the left by using flares.

The issue there though is that you're far from guaranteed to have them when fighting him since flares are obtained a lot later in the game than they are in LM1. Like raocow, I didn't even have them when I fought Jormungand. Though even with flares and the back part of the whip attack, I still think Jormungand is one of the most heavily flawed fights in the game. It'd be tolerable if you could at least turn around.

Echidna in particular is another that's massively inferior to the LM1 version in my opinion. In the latter parts of the fight you frequently can't hit her with anything other than subweapons. And she's so tanky that you'll quickly run out of those. I ended up using all my subweapons in my final attempt against her including the pistol.

Though the lategame bosses are rather difficult in general compared to LM1 bosses in my opinion. Aten-Ra has an attack that covers most of the field and is instant death when he also summons enemies that can knock you around (though I personally liked that fight), Anu is frequently not in range if I recall correctly, Hel is just difficult to get into hitting range without taking tons of damage, and Surtr is just not a great fight. (Though from what I've read of patch notes, it seems his fight is at least better than when I fought him.)

Can't really speak for the final boss myself since I ragequit a few rooms from the end and never got back to it. (The room where you have to navigate the spikes or fall into a room where you have to fight Fenrir. When I reached it I was already rather miffed by the fact I got locked out of the final glossary entry and had just not been at all impressed by Spiral Hell. Then when I found out that you had to fight Fenrir every time you failed, apparently a bug that later got patched, I just wasn't having it. The room above Fenrir was already my least favorite room in the entirety of LM1 but I thought it was worse in LM2 despite the clearance for spikes being better due to that issue combined with the annoyance of hitting every spike on your way down when you screw up.)

[Voltgloss]

In-depth spoiler discussion below for LM2 bosses that raocow has not yet seen.

I'm not sure what you mean not being able to hit Echidna in her latter phases without using subweapons. I'm able to hit her with the Axe through the entire battle. It's a question of learning her attacks' timing (especially the three laser cannons around her) and judicious Angel Shield use. I actually really love that fight because I could feel myself slowly getting better and better at it each time I attempted it. Frankly, I suspect if I tried to rely on subweapons instead of the Angel Shield, I'd have had a much more difficult time; perhaps that's just me.

I like the Aten-Ra fight a lot as well, especially after its original incarnation was patched (in 1.0.0.0 the fight was just boringly easy). His insta-kill will probably get you at least once but after you've seen it I think it's pretty well telegraphed. I quite enjoy how hectic the final phase of that fight becomes.

It's not immediately obvious, but Anu can be hit with flares. (You can't shoot them directly at him, as the bottom of his craft blocks it; you need to aim to his side so that the explosion gets him instead of the flare itself.) Without them, yes, it's a waiting game; with them, it may be the fastest Guardian fight of the game.

Hel is quite demanding in terms of positioning and learning her patterns if you're looking to melee her effectively. Subweapons make things a lot easier. Reactivating all of your tools first also helps a lot.

Surtr is now vastly improved. That fight was hot garbage for a long time.

[repairmanman]

Personally, I'm looking forward

to when raocow speaks to xelpud after he runs out of money

[Awoo]

Personally, I'm looking forward

to when raocow speaks to xelpud after he runs out of money

implying he does, this is raocow we're talking about, and he hasn't pissed off Nebur so far or in this or the previous game, so I have faith in his ability to raocow his way through things

[Voltgloss]

Personally, I'm looking forward

to when raocow speaks to xelpud after he runs out of money

I didn't know this was a thing. I'll have to give it a shot.

[repairmanman]

Personally, I'm looking forward

to when raocow speaks to xelpud after he runs out of money

I didn't know this was a thing. I'll have to give it a shot.

when xelpud runs out of money, not lumisa. I would constantly talk to him whenever I went back to heal, so I got to talk to him a lot. At some point he runs out of funds and his harem abandons him. He gets them back but I think his personality changes a bit after that humbling experience.

[Duker]

He gets them back

Woah wait, what?! That can really happen??

[repairmanman]

He gets them back

Woah wait, what?! That can really happen??

if you'll wait a bit I can see if I still have my old save file

You're right, he doesn't. Goes to show how much I remember of the game

[Zummorr]

I enjoy how raocow can remember minor details about what the wheel in Valhalla from over a week ago. Remember a split-gate checkpoint, which I don't think he used before, causing him to wander into Pushan's room for a relevant hint.

But then claims he can't remember a thing the double jump would be good for at the end of the end of the episode.

[Crow]

Instadeath trap count: 32 (+1 today)

i'm not going to count the instadeath trap raocow didn't trigger today and now can never trigger again, because that's the rule i am following. someone else can document the # of instadeath traps total.

i forgot to post this 6 hours ago when i watched the video somehow

[AweStriker]

That dodged instadeath trap is Exhibit 1 for "raocowing through it will be okay".

The hint to destroy that tablet is in the Gate of the Dead.

[Reecer7]

mulbruk those aren't snowshoes!!! those are snow boots!!! they'd be snowshoes if they had a wide frame on the bottom to disperse your weight, so you do not sink into snow, and i feel like you are still able to sink into snow if you so please despite wearing these!!

i want to imagine xelpud built his castle on angel investment funds, and it remains to be seen if la-mulana will become a successful tourist destination whatsoever. personally i'd like to see it fail, and then be publicized as a national park

[Tenlade]

doesnt help that a lot of these bosses are mostly remixes of Lm1 bosses except now you spend about 10 seconds waiting for them to stop stomping around in the background and actually fight you

Which bosses are you referring to and what LM1 bosses are they remixes of? This is a legit question as I'm unclear what you're referencing. Stomping around in the background certainly applies to Kujata, but are you saying it's a remix of a LM1 boss? Which one?

I actually had to go back and check some youtube vids for a refresher on some bosses and thier names . Surtr is the one I distinctly remember as literally stomping around in the background a lot of the time (the videos I watched seem to kill him pretty quick though negating that ), and echidna is the one I remember just being tiamat with some additions(and one of baphomet's attacks) and Jorgumand's gimmick is a mix of Pallenque's plane and Ellmac's minecart. Of the rest I guess would more just contain minor callbacks that I'm misremembering (coulda sworn something had viy's giant laser but i must be mixing it up with that one hell temple trap from the first game).

Alsothe final phase of the last boss is the same gimmick but thats the pointso whatever

[Alice]

I enjoy how raocow can remember minor details about what the wheel in Valhalla from over a week ago. Remember a split-gate checkpoint, which I don't think he used before, causing him to wander into Pushan's room for a relevant hint.

But then claims he can't remember a thing the double jump would be good for at the end of the end of the episode.

Personally I can't wait for him to inexplicably forget he now has a double jump starting next episode only to finally remember it a few episodes later.

[Awoo]

I enjoy how raocow can remember minor details about what the wheel in Valhalla from over a week ago. Remember a split-gate checkpoint, which I don't think he used before, causing him to wander into Pushan's room for a relevant hint.

But then claims he can't remember a thing the double jump would be good for at the end of the end of the episode.

Personally I can't wait for him to inexplicably forget he now has a double jump starting next episode only to finally remember it a few episodes later.

I think his jump not jumping is more likely :3

[repairmanman]

Ha, he lost his harem

[Crow]

Instadeath trap count: 34 (+2 today)

weird dog: a fight they're so proud of you're basically guaranteed to have to do it twice on your first playthrough!