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YUMP2 - Marginal Consciousness

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Awakenyourmind
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Re: YUMP2 - 30 - Clocktowers Beneath the Sea

Post by Awakenyourmind »

Interesting level, a little kaizo-ish though. I need me some pizza and KFC money. :ehh:
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Re: YUMP2 - 30 - Clocktowers Beneath the Sea

Post by Sugar »

The real YUMP2 starts here.
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Re: YUMP2 - 30 - Clocktowers Beneath the Sea

Post by Alice »

I think the biggest reason that levels like today's aren't fun for a lot of people is that they can be fun to solve but most people don't like constantly failing at something even though they know exactly what they're supposed to do. People who actually enjoy repeating the same stretch of level dozens of times while slowly refining their muscle memory until they can beat it are definitely a minority.
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Re: YUMP2 - 30 - Clocktowers Beneath the Sea

Post by SAJewers »

Awakenyourmind wrote: 3 years ago Interesting level, a little kaizo-ish though.
Considering it's apparently a sequel to a KLDC7 entry, that shouldn't be too surprising.
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Re: YUMP2 - 30 - Clocktowers Beneath the Sea

Post by LunarRainbowShyGuy »

My experience here was pretty much just like raocow's; this was the first level I didn't really like because it was too difficult for me, and the first level where I used a savestate to give myself a checkpoint (in the exact same place that raocow did, although I only waited until my second time there to use one). I'm not saying it's a bad level, I actually think it's well designed, but the amount of precision required in the part where you have to jump on Yoshi is just way too much for me. I died so many times here I ended up having to take a break because my thumb was getting sore from holding right all the time. I'm genuinely curious exactly how much room for error you have here, because it feels like you have to be absolutely perfect to get through that one part.
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Re: YUMP2 - 30 - Clocktowers Beneath the Sea

Post by Sinc-X »

Alice wrote: 3 years ago I think the biggest reason that levels like today's aren't fun for a lot of people is that they can be fun to solve but most people don't like constantly failing at something even though they know exactly what they're supposed to do. People who actually enjoy repeating the same stretch of level dozens of times while slowly refining their muscle memory until they can beat it are definitely a minority.
Except they aren't a minority, really. Maybe several years ago they were, but the modern Kaizo scene is massive. This is just a Kaizo level like any other (except arguably more creative and fun than a lot of Kaizo content out there). That's not to say that it's for everyone, of course, because it isn't. rao using a savestate was the right decision to make, I think, on his part.
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Re: YUMP2 - 30 - Clocktowers Beneath the Sea

Post by gbreeze »

I was curious so I actually counted. In just 2020, there were 81 kaizo hacks and 76 non-kaizo hacks submitted to smwc. Which is interesting. I think kaizo and non-kaizo are about even in popularity if you're looking at just a hacking perspective.

Of course, it depends on the community. On twitch, 90% of hacks played are kaizo, whereas 90% of what raocow plays is non-kaizo. Dealing with each category makes you become accustomed to the demands of each.

raocow is incredibly good at non-kaizo (and yes, even puzzles lol). He was able to beat many levels from yump2 (notably, a few puzzle levels) faster than many of the biggest kaizo twitch streamers who hold records in a bunch of kaizo hacks. Conversely, they were able to knock out this level pretty quickly, while raocow struggled with it. That comes to no surprise. The more of a certain style of game you play, the better you get at it of course, and this level is one of the most kaizo-styled so far. I think it's neat seeing raocow doing levels outside his normal area of expertise.

As an aside, I think using savestates in a situation like this is totally fine, and it may not be the last time it's required.
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Re: YUMP2 - 30 - Clocktowers Beneath the Sea

Post by Alice »

Sinc-X wrote: 3 years ago
Alice wrote: 3 years agoI think the biggest reason that levels like today's aren't fun for a lot of people is that they can be fun to solve but most people don't like constantly failing at something even though they know exactly what they're supposed to do. People who actually enjoy repeating the same stretch of level dozens of times while slowly refining their muscle memory until they can beat it are definitely a minority.
Except they aren't a minority, really. Maybe several years ago they were, but the modern Kaizo scene is massive. This is just a Kaizo level like any other (except arguably more creative and fun than a lot of Kaizo content out there). That's not to say that it's for everyone, of course, because it isn't. rao using a savestate was the right decision to make, I think, on his part.
I think you're probably looking at this from the wrong direction. A place like SMWC isn't representative of the whole fanbase. SMWC is where the biggest fans congregate and the biggest fans are more likely to enjoy more difficult levels due to their experience with the game. People such as myself who are fans of SMW but don't spent thousands upon thousands of hours playing aren't particularly active at all in the community.

Another good example would be to look at Mario Maker levels. Kaizo levels there tend to have a 5% completion rate or lower. Meaning 19 of every 20 people who try it end up quitting, most likely because it's too difficult for them and thus not fun. If they were actually having fun with it, chances are they wouldn't have quit the level.
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Re: YUMP2 - 30 - Clocktowers Beneath the Sea

Post by Sugar »

Alice wrote: 3 years ago
Sinc-X wrote: 3 years ago
Alice wrote: 3 years agoI think the biggest reason that levels like today's aren't fun for a lot of people is that they can be fun to solve but most people don't like constantly failing at something even though they know exactly what they're supposed to do. People who actually enjoy repeating the same stretch of level dozens of times while slowly refining their muscle memory until they can beat it are definitely a minority.
Except they aren't a minority, really. Maybe several years ago they were, but the modern Kaizo scene is massive. This is just a Kaizo level like any other (except arguably more creative and fun than a lot of Kaizo content out there). That's not to say that it's for everyone, of course, because it isn't. rao using a savestate was the right decision to make, I think, on his part.
I think you're probably looking at this from the wrong direction. A place like SMWC isn't representative of the whole fanbase. SMWC is where the biggest fans congregate and the biggest fans are more likely to enjoy more difficult levels due to their experience with the game. People such as myself who are fans of SMW but don't spent thousands upon thousands of hours playing aren't particularly active at all in the community.

Another good example would be to look at Mario Maker levels. Kaizo levels there tend to have a 5% completion rate or lower. Meaning 19 of every 20 people who try it end up quitting, most likely because it's too difficult for them and thus not fun. If they were actually having fun with it, chances are they wouldn't have quit the level.
"Clear rate" in Mario Maker considers every death as a failure, just saying. So for instance, if nobody gave up and on average a level would take 19 deaths it would have 5% completion rate.

What you probably meant to refer to is a ratio of players who have played the level (indicated by footprint icon) divided by number of clears which for 2% clear rate levels tends to be 40% or so (which means 60% of players quit before winning). This ratio is not displayed, you need to calculate it yourself.

Of course, worth nothing that Mario Maker does not count attempt where the player did not win or die, so keep that in mind - as far Mario Maker is concerned, you didn't play the level until you die or win. The impact of that is likely not very big however as clear ratio is visible before entering the level (so you can tell what levels could be too tricky at your skill level), and in endless mode people tend to skip levels they would be able to do, just don't want to do for endless mode because endless doesn't provide many lives (so you cannot tell much from endless mode skips).
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Re: YUMP2 - 30 - Clocktowers Beneath the Sea

Post by Sinc-X »

I'm also not referring specifically to SMWC. Yes, there is a decently sized Kaizo fanbase on SMWC, but there are entire other communities based on it as well (see for example Romhack Races). There is a huge amount of love for Kaizo all across the SMW scene. And yes, of course there is still plenty of love for non-Kaizo, otherwise we wouldn't even be here - and I'm certainly not trying to imply that Kaizo is the overwhelming winner of popularity, either - but it is most definitely not a significant minority. It's probably split pretty evenly, honestly.
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Re: YUMP2 - 30 - Clocktowers Beneath the Sea

Post by Reecer7 »

i personally like the levels that look neat

a shame you only get to ride yoshi for 0.5 seconds in this level, as it bereaves us from hearing scooter mode in the music u_u still boggles my mind that this was always a feature in smw music, and i only learned about it recently!
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Re: YUMP2 - 30 - Clocktowers Beneath the Sea

Post by The Doctor »

Alice wrote: 3 years ago I think the biggest reason that levels like today's aren't fun for a lot of people is that they can be fun to solve but most people don't like constantly failing at something even though they know exactly what they're supposed to do. People who actually enjoy repeating the same stretch of level dozens of times while slowly refining their muscle memory until they can beat it are definitely a minority.
I don't really care which is more popular, but this does sum it up. I watch a lot of Kaizo players on Twitch and the key thing I note between all of them is that they rarely get frustrated. I was watching a streamer a few days ago playing Grand Poo World and she spent about 5 hours on one level and most of that on a single jump she kept failing. Except for a sigh here or there, she was chill as a cucumber during the whole thing.

raocow certainly has the skills to beat YUMP 2 without save states, but you really have to enjoy that grind. If you don't then it's going to be a miseable experience.
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Re: YUMP2 - 30 - Clocktowers Beneath the Sea

Post by ft029 »

imagine if I said the 2nd half used to have no clouds (you have one shot at going up a pipe entrance :evil: )

Said the same thing on youtube, but-- I put a savestate to practice the ted part, and then after figuring out what to do, putting the two parts together took fairly little time. But this is definitely a demanding kaizo level
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Re: YUMP2 - 30 - Clocktowers Beneath the Sea

Post by Sinc-X »

i forgot about the clouds. you are so lucky to have the clouds
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Re: YUMP2 - 31 - We're the Robots

Post by Kilgamayan »

We're the Robots makes everything better, clearly.
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Re: YUMP2 - 31 - We're the Robots

Post by strongbadman »

raocow made the correct decision in not One More Level-ing, as we'll see tomorrow.
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Re: YUMP2 - 31 - We're the Robots

Post by Valentine »

At this point I feel like if I go to Switzerland and this song isn't playing everywhere I have enough evidence to sue the entirety of JUMPteam
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Re: YUMP2 - 30 - Clocktowers Beneath the Sea

Post by TiKi »

Reecer7 wrote: 3 years ago i personally like the levels that look neat

a shame you only get to ride yoshi for 0.5 seconds in this level, as it bereaves us from hearing scooter mode in the music u_u still boggles my mind that this was always a feature in smw music, and i only learned about it recently!
I don't think a lot of custom SMW music implements that feature, so if you haven't played vanilla or hacks that recycle the vanilla music, it's easy to miss. Heck, the very first custom music (firstly it was a patch instead of piecemeal songs, secondly it was a lot of Super Mario All-Stars music, thirdly it has the best glitchy music replacement [Game Over music plays when you reach the credits] ever) as seen in The Second Reality Project 2 and Super Mario Infinity 1/2, didn't have the Yoshi drums feature either, so not even playing old hacks would make you notice it
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Re: YUMP2 - 32 - Koopa Kid Castle Clear

Post by Grounder »

What an awkward, poorly-explained gimmick.
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Re: YUMP2 - 32 - Koopa Kid Castle Clear

Post by Valentine »

idk about awkward but the gimmick was really obvious to me and the level makes sure you can't progress past the first setup if you don't properly understand it.
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Re: YUMP2 - 32 - Koopa Kid Castle Clear

Post by AlchemistHohenheim »

Thank you Youtube for providing this very important context to this Mario video:
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Re: YUMP2 - 32 - Koopa Kid Castle Clear

Post by LunarRainbowShyGuy »

I find it interesting how a simple change to the game's rules can have such a big impact on gameplay, and make way for interesting setups that you'd never be able to have in vanilla SMW. I like the way this level makes use of various quirks of certain sprites that you'd normally never think twice about, like how the hopping bowser statues don't change direction until they jump. Overall I liked this level, although I would have like it more if the boss fight used the gimmick in an interesting way.
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Re: YUMP2 - 32 - Koopa Kid Castle Clear

Post by Validon98 »

I actually managed to get to this level in my own playthrough, but this is probably the first level in the entire hack where I have no qualms heavily savescumming through it (as opposed to the normal amount of savescum which is usually like, a state per level if it's getting exhausting, I know I'm a horrible person for state abuse the run's invalid I get it) because the timing on some of the setups is just, exhausting to figure out and execute. The gimmick wasn't hard to figure out, it's pretty obvious within a few seconds of tinkering, but the rest is just a series of unfun setup after unfun setup. Like it's a neat concept, just the execution and having to redo so many weird timing setups (especially the second screen at the start, which took me a bunch of times to even just clear it once before immediately throwing a state down because it was that frustrating to solve the timing for) and doing that ad infinitum isn't my idea of fun (begs the question why I try this hack, I guess, but hey there's plenty of other levels that I liked and it's those kinds of things I'm playing the hack for, not the challenge of it).

EDIT: Oh wow this boss at the end is kind of nonsense too huh.
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Re: YUMP2 - 32 - Koopa Kid Castle Clear

Post by strongbadman »

I did beat this level without tools, but I really wish there was a visual indicator for when somethong was tangible or not.
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Re: YUMP2 - 33 - The Mountains

Post by kitikami »

raocow just casually knowing how to get on the Yoshi if he could just save another shell was one of the most impressive moments i've seen in an LP.
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