Vanilla Level Design Contest X - 1he First place entry...well d0ne to all.
Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest X - OK still looking at 100th! To level or not to level...
Just gonna jump in real quick in regards to the discussion the other day. Personally I entered the contest at the time with the level that I did because I thought it would be an interesting contrast to the other entries while playing the collab, not because I wanted to place well. I went in expecting my level to get 0 points for level design since I was well aware it did not conform to the idea of "Level Design" in the context of a VLDC.
I don't think that means there's something wrong with the way levels are/were judged. VLDC just isn't the contest for entries like this if you want to win or place highly and that's perfectly fine.
A contest for more "unusual" vanilla stuff might be fun, but I don't know how much potential there really is for subverting traditional formulas in the confines of vanilla hacking. I think CLDCs might already kind of fill the niche of "unusual" contest entries, but I haven't taken part in them before or paid much attention to them so I'm not actually sure about that.
I don't think that means there's something wrong with the way levels are/were judged. VLDC just isn't the contest for entries like this if you want to win or place highly and that's perfectly fine.
A contest for more "unusual" vanilla stuff might be fun, but I don't know how much potential there really is for subverting traditional formulas in the confines of vanilla hacking. I think CLDCs might already kind of fill the niche of "unusual" contest entries, but I haven't taken part in them before or paid much attention to them so I'm not actually sure about that.
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Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest X - OK still looking at 100th! To level or not to level...
What a perfect ending to today's video.
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Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest X - OK still looking at 100th! To level or not to level...
kaizo levels in non-kaizo contests are always a good idea
Why don't you eat me?
I am perfectly tasty...
AND I'LL STEAL YOUR SOUL!
I am perfectly tasty...
AND I'LL STEAL YOUR SOUL!
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Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest X - OK still looking at 100th! To level or not to level...
I don't know why people are saying "Kaizo-lite," this looks straight up harder than some actual levels from the first Kaizo game
I think what made your level particularly interesting and impressive is that it was all done in vanilla, though. It wouldn't stand out as much in a contest where the rules allows someone to hypothetically rewrite as much of the engine as they want.
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Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest X - OK still looking at 100th! To level or not to level...
Kaizo has evolved to be much worse since its origins... at least imo
I love it
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Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest X - OK still looking at 100th! To level or not to level...
So Kaizo = Kaizo lite?
Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest X - OK still looking at 100th! To level or not to level...
First of, thanks! I think a level like this could still stand out just as much in non-vanilla contests and be just as impressive but you would have to make use of (probably custom) ASM to get it there. There's still plenty of room to make people go "how'd they do that" outside of vanilla hacks, it's just a lot more work since there are less restrictions.
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Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest X - OK still looking at 100th! To level or not to level...
Just make a super elaborate custom boss, ezpz
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Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest X - OK still looking at 100th! To level or not to level...
hey what's up i'm bad at forums time for my second post in three years
i'm a few videos behind cause i got a whole buncha shit to catch up on youtube wise but i felt like copypasting my comment from episode 23 over here, give the rao man a better chance of seeing it, share some idle thoughts and background knowledge on some of the weirder entries that i might know more about, yaknow
i'm a few videos behind cause i got a whole buncha shit to catch up on youtube wise but i felt like copypasting my comment from episode 23 over here, give the rao man a better chance of seeing it, share some idle thoughts and background knowledge on some of the weirder entries that i might know more about, yaknow
it's been a kinda weird time seeing people and in-jokes i know and am familiar with from the metroid construction romhacking community show up in this contest and make perfect sense to me specifically and no one else. like, oh yeah duh, smileuser really likes foxes so there's a buncha lineguide art of foxes in their level, oh shyguyexpress made a desert / pyramid themed super metroid mini-hack that had a custom angry sun enemy so it makes total sense that their vldc level would be that too, and meanwhile raocow is playing these levels with no real idea of like the metconst invasion of vldcx and their attempts at making some levels for the other big snes romhack game. i dunno it's kinda neat yknow
Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest X - OK still looking at 100th! To level or not to level...
I'm all for weird inside gags whenever romhackers outside of SMW enter in a contest like this, which was mainly why I put in that "first timers" disclaimer in the op of the thread. I was kinda wondering if there was a deeper meaning behind some of those weirder entries... now we know!
My YouTube channel - P-Switch... - 100 Rooms of Enemies: The Nightmare Edition
Links above if you want to check 'em out... or not, since these are overlooked.
Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest X - OK still looking at 100th! To level or not to level...
YUMP Level Design Contest?Underway wrote: ↑3 years ago A contest for more "unusual" vanilla stuff might be fun, but I don't know how much potential there really is for subverting traditional formulas in the confines of vanilla hacking. I think CLDCs might already kind of fill the niche of "unusual" contest entries, but I haven't taken part in them before or paid much attention to them so I'm not actually sure about that.
Also in regards to the general mood of the latest posts, I think it's a good discussion about how sometimes vanilla stuff can seem more impressive than chocolate. It also reminds me that there are several general "shades" of vanilla-chocolateness in non-level stuff (so this means ASM, graphics, music...)
1. Vanilla
2. Choconilla/chocolate - Where it doesn't use only the vanilla game's assets, but they ARE all externally pre-made. That is to say, graphics/music ripped or composed, and ASM created by someone who isn't the hacker or on their team. There's still significant leeway in their usage (such as recoloring a tileset/background, using the Noob Boss in clever boss room setups...), but it definitely doesn't come off like just ANYTHING could happen, if you catch my drift. In other words, "everything chocolate in X category of the hack comes from SMWCentral".
2.5 - Not sure what to call this, but it's when there are both significant amounts of pre-made AND custom assets in one category. Like how A2XT has significant custom graphics, but also plenty of rips, or how ASMWCP has custom ASM but also some SMWCentral sprite section sprites.
3. Hyper-chocolate - Where anything can happen in regards to that category. So like how Brutal Mario had "anything can happen" ASM, the Devious Four Chronicles have "anything can happen" in graphics...
Some hacks can also have varying levels of chocolateness in the various aspects. Such as Brutal Mario's old demos where it had lots of ASM but no custom music at ALL.
Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest X - OK still looking at 100th! To level or not to level...
kaizo lite, at least where smwc is concerned, just means that the level/hack can be cleared without tools
there’s been some discussion on whether we should change that definition
there’s been some discussion on whether we should change that definition
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Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest X - OK still looking at 100th! To level or not to level...
I thought if it can't be cleared without tools it's called a pit hack
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Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest X - OK still looking at 100th! To level or not to level...
I feel like there should be a 1.5 in between here where the VLDC rules would fit in (Tile merging, palette swaps, custom music, minimal patches, etc). Compare to 1.0 pure vanilla, a ruleset that restricts you to raw SMW assets for a situation like OLDC.TiKi wrote: ↑3 years ago 1. Vanilla
2. Choconilla/chocolate - Where it doesn't use only the vanilla game's assets, but they ARE all externally pre-made. That is to say, graphics/music ripped or composed, and ASM created by someone who isn't the hacker or on their team. There's still significant leeway in their usage (such as recoloring a tileset/background, using the Noob Boss in clever boss room setups...), but it definitely doesn't come off like just ANYTHING could happen, if you catch my drift. In other words, "everything chocolate in X category of the hack comes from SMWCentral".
3DS FC: 2793-0650-7690 | Switch: SW-2766-9108-9399 | Steam: ivysaur1996 (ivy)
Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest X - OK still looking at 100th! To level or not to level...
97th: Lava You Lots by Mata Hari
96th: Ruins of Icarus by Forty2
95th: Koopa Troopa Beach by Gamma V
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Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest X - OK still looking at 100th! To level or not to level...
I'm pleased with how my level held up insofar as the timings of the ball-and-chain setups worked out pretty much as I would've wanted, when someone else is playing through your level at their own pace I don't think they always do. The cutoff is a bit unfortunate but considering I'd never actually used Lunar Magic before at all I don't think it was too bad! They're slagging off the palettes but I'm pretty sure they were exactly as I intended so there's no accounting for taste.
If there is a way to animate the fire in the background I don't know it.
If there is a way to animate the fire in the background I don't know it.
Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest X - OK still looking at 100th! To level or not to level...
On smwc, the categories for difficulty are broken down like so:
-Kaizo:light - possible without tools (and intended to be rta).
-Kaizo:hard - either impossible without tools or the author so clearly intended tool-use that not using them is miserable.
-Pit: abuses constant frame perfect tricks and usually requires more than just savestates (such as slowdown and frame advance).
There's a bit of a grey area between all 3, of course. Between kaizo:hard and pit, I like to think of kaizo hard as you're still playing the game normally, you're just using savestates. Pit hacks, on the other hand, really go hand-in-hand with TASes. Most of smwc agrees that the categories are in desperate need of renaming (among other things) and there's plans in the works rn to revamp a lot of the difficulty category stuff.
Also, I think the aesthetics/creativity contest could either be vanilla or allow asm, probably depends on what most people want. But it would still be different from cldc, in my opinion. Cldc mostly behaves similar to vldc in that the expectation is still on "gameplay" being a part of the level design, and level design is still the largest chunk of the score (which is the case in most contests). My understanding was that this contest would not even have a level design category.
Edit: I should mention that smwc goes into detail on this to be as descriptive as possible about the hack, not try to dictate how people choose to play; if a player chooses to play kaizo:light with savestates, they have every right to of course
-Kaizo:light - possible without tools (and intended to be rta).
-Kaizo:hard - either impossible without tools or the author so clearly intended tool-use that not using them is miserable.
-Pit: abuses constant frame perfect tricks and usually requires more than just savestates (such as slowdown and frame advance).
There's a bit of a grey area between all 3, of course. Between kaizo:hard and pit, I like to think of kaizo hard as you're still playing the game normally, you're just using savestates. Pit hacks, on the other hand, really go hand-in-hand with TASes. Most of smwc agrees that the categories are in desperate need of renaming (among other things) and there's plans in the works rn to revamp a lot of the difficulty category stuff.
Also, I think the aesthetics/creativity contest could either be vanilla or allow asm, probably depends on what most people want. But it would still be different from cldc, in my opinion. Cldc mostly behaves similar to vldc in that the expectation is still on "gameplay" being a part of the level design, and level design is still the largest chunk of the score (which is the case in most contests). My understanding was that this contest would not even have a level design category.
Edit: I should mention that smwc goes into detail on this to be as descriptive as possible about the hack, not try to dictate how people choose to play; if a player chooses to play kaizo:light with savestates, they have every right to of course
Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest X - OK still looking at 100th! To level or not to level...
Hmm, I prefered the theme and atmosphere of 'Lava You Lots' to the gameplay of 'Ruins of Icarus'; but can totally see ranking Ruins higher on an objective scale citing design. Things are super hard to put into numbers, tldr judging is hard.
Good levels though.
Interestingly that kaizo-lite level featured something I remember as being called a kaizo-gate.
Which I also believe was in the very first level of the first kaizo hack. Maybe? Memory is hard.
Anyway, with kaizo the first things I think of are kaizo-blocks and -traps which I think are now more troll and less kaizo despite the name.
Definitely different people think differently with classifications.
Good levels though.
Interestingly that kaizo-lite level featured something I remember as being called a kaizo-gate.
Which I also believe was in the very first level of the first kaizo hack. Maybe? Memory is hard.
Anyway, with kaizo the first things I think of are kaizo-blocks and -traps which I think are now more troll and less kaizo despite the name.
Definitely different people think differently with classifications.
Thanks for sharing, this sort of extra info is fun to read.
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Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest X - OK still looking at 100th! To level or not to level...
Oh hey, it's my level. I made Ruins of Icarus.
First, I'm happy raocow finally ended up playing and apparently enjoying something I made. I first started making SMW stuff over 10 years ago now (though I never actually finished a project), and have been on-and-off watching raocow videos for probably not as much over 10 years. The first VLDC I entered was the first one raocow skipped LPing (VLDC6 or something), which was a bit of a let-down for me at the time, and I think I was a lot happier with my level for that contest than my VLDCX level. But hey, we got there in the end.
Second, I wasn't altogether satisfied with how my level turned out, but at that point in my SMW hacking life I was pretty creatively and motivationally burnt out on SMW. "A castle in the sky, within a thunderstorm" was one single idea I had left over that I still wanted to make happen, and Ruins of Icarus is what I ended up with. From the sounds of things, I managed to convey the intended feel or atmosphere pretty well. Indeed, the level was supposed to feel slightly awkward and unnatural, unlike a normal Mario level with clearly defined paths and obstacles; maybe too meta of a design philosophy to appeal to most, but at the end of the day I was more or less making the level for myself. I wanted to give the player a sense of exploration, make them feel like they forged a path rather than presenting them with one to follow. I might have prioritised conveying that over actually making something simple and enjoyable for judges to play among over a hundred other levels, but I wouldn't say I regret it. Though watching the level played again after all this time, it feels a bit emptier than I remembered, particularly the second half. I probably didn't have to experience as much idling as the level author, though even during development I added the hopping flames to the design element pool because I realised it was lacking a bit of liveliness.
Other notes: Yoshi's Island 2 was replaced with a single screen containing the red and blue switches. I forgot to change the level name (apparently, I could've sworn I renamed it "Switches") but I mentioned it in a readme along with my actual submission, not realising most people would probably never see it.
I was fairly certain I tested the start of the level to ensure that not pressing anything got you sumo'd rather than sliding off to your death, which is a little more funky than what the judges seem to have experienced.
The secret exit doesn't exactly involve a fun or novel concept, so I'm fine with it being skipped; it probably dragged my scores down a little bit by existing. It and the dagadon placements were pretty much just for the whole "encouraging exploration" thing and offering extra challenges, so again I don't really regret it even if the execution could've been better. It doesn't actually require either of the switches activated though, there's a mace you can spinjump off of.
tl;dr: thanks for play, i don't hope i win
First, I'm happy raocow finally ended up playing and apparently enjoying something I made. I first started making SMW stuff over 10 years ago now (though I never actually finished a project), and have been on-and-off watching raocow videos for probably not as much over 10 years. The first VLDC I entered was the first one raocow skipped LPing (VLDC6 or something), which was a bit of a let-down for me at the time, and I think I was a lot happier with my level for that contest than my VLDCX level. But hey, we got there in the end.
Second, I wasn't altogether satisfied with how my level turned out, but at that point in my SMW hacking life I was pretty creatively and motivationally burnt out on SMW. "A castle in the sky, within a thunderstorm" was one single idea I had left over that I still wanted to make happen, and Ruins of Icarus is what I ended up with. From the sounds of things, I managed to convey the intended feel or atmosphere pretty well. Indeed, the level was supposed to feel slightly awkward and unnatural, unlike a normal Mario level with clearly defined paths and obstacles; maybe too meta of a design philosophy to appeal to most, but at the end of the day I was more or less making the level for myself. I wanted to give the player a sense of exploration, make them feel like they forged a path rather than presenting them with one to follow. I might have prioritised conveying that over actually making something simple and enjoyable for judges to play among over a hundred other levels, but I wouldn't say I regret it. Though watching the level played again after all this time, it feels a bit emptier than I remembered, particularly the second half. I probably didn't have to experience as much idling as the level author, though even during development I added the hopping flames to the design element pool because I realised it was lacking a bit of liveliness.
Other notes: Yoshi's Island 2 was replaced with a single screen containing the red and blue switches. I forgot to change the level name (apparently, I could've sworn I renamed it "Switches") but I mentioned it in a readme along with my actual submission, not realising most people would probably never see it.
I was fairly certain I tested the start of the level to ensure that not pressing anything got you sumo'd rather than sliding off to your death, which is a little more funky than what the judges seem to have experienced.
The secret exit doesn't exactly involve a fun or novel concept, so I'm fine with it being skipped; it probably dragged my scores down a little bit by existing. It and the dagadon placements were pretty much just for the whole "encouraging exploration" thing and offering extra challenges, so again I don't really regret it even if the execution could've been better. It doesn't actually require either of the switches activated though, there's a mace you can spinjump off of.
tl;dr: thanks for play, i don't hope i win
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Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest X - Finally we're past 100th! What if we made a lot o' boppos?
I thought it was pretty cool that the first bit of Ruins of Icarus had you follow a short "obvious" path before you find out it's blocked off and you have to find another route. It's a natural little narrative that the player experiences instead of just being told "go over the temple because you can't go in."
But apparently the judges hated it cause it wasted their time or something, I don't know.
The second half also looked really fun to me. I kinda like those awkward-but-doable jumps because it feels like the level exists outside of just being made for Mario to progress through it, and that ties really nicely into the ruins theme. It's something Dark Souls does in its levels too, a lot of the time it seems like they started off by just designing an area that exists on its own and then later on add in ways for the player to progress through it.
But apparently the judges hated it cause it wasted their time or something, I don't know.
The second half also looked really fun to me. I kinda like those awkward-but-doable jumps because it feels like the level exists outside of just being made for Mario to progress through it, and that ties really nicely into the ruins theme. It's something Dark Souls does in its levels too, a lot of the time it seems like they started off by just designing an area that exists on its own and then later on add in ways for the player to progress through it.
Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest X - OK still looking at 100th! To level or not to level...
That's a very good point in regardless to the patches and graphics. Though as for music it just means that the contestants are allowed to have their music be at any point on the vanilla-chocolate scale. I was focusing more on quantifying the various categories that a hack has as chocolate or vanilla, not the hacks as a whole.Ivy wrote: ↑3 years agoI feel like there should be a 1.5 in between here where the VLDC rules would fit in (Tile merging, palette swaps, custom music, minimal patches, etc). Compare to 1.0 pure vanilla, a ruleset that restricts you to raw SMW assets for a situation like OLDC.TiKi wrote: ↑3 years ago 1. Vanilla
2. Choconilla/chocolate - Where it doesn't use only the vanilla game's assets, but they ARE all externally pre-made. That is to say, graphics/music ripped or composed, and ASM created by someone who isn't the hacker or on their team. There's still significant leeway in their usage (such as recoloring a tileset/background, using the Noob Boss in clever boss room setups...), but it definitely doesn't come off like just ANYTHING could happen, if you catch my drift. In other words, "everything chocolate in X category of the hack comes from SMWCentral".
Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest X - Finally we're past 100th! What if we made a lot o' boppos?
93rd: Lofted Lifts by Galactaknight
93rd: Oriental Mountains by Samantha (Decoy Blimp)
92nd: Sky Mines by RussianMan + Pixel-Gon Gamer
- Kilgamayan
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Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest X - Finally we're past 100th! What if we made a lot o' boppos?
Eleven years after betrayal platforms, we finally get betrayal coins.
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Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest X - Finally we're past 100th! What if we made a lot o' boppos?
You are incorrect here. If raocow would go hug right wall, then he would avoid getting hurt by a rock. That's what coins were indicating. And no, he wouldn't fall off platform.Kilgamayan wrote: ↑3 years ago Eleven years after betrayal platforms, we finally get betrayal coins.
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Re: Vanilla Level Design Contest X - Finally we're past 100th! What if we made a lot o' boppos?
Hey, the video voice man claimed to be betrayed by the coins. I'm just repeating that.
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