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Iconoclasts - I can't believe it. Humans are so flaky. I knew I should have asked the tengu about this instead.

this is the place where lps are being talked about. it's important to talk about games being played on the internet.
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Re: Iconoclasts - I didn't think humans were that strong.

Postby Kilgamayan » 1 week ago

Grounder wrote:
* This is the end. *
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Re: Iconoclasts - I didn't think humans were that strong.

Postby Cyril » 1 week ago

As usual, wind remains raocow's eternal nemesis
i've honestly never played a video game in my life

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Re: Iconoclasts - I didn't think humans were that strong.

Postby Count Mohawk » 1 week ago

Apparently, if the world dies in the game, the world dies in real life.

Also: "The wind sure is howling to-dayyyyyyyyyyy..."

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Re: Iconoclasts - I didn't think humans were that strong.

Postby Grounder » 1 week ago




goodnight royal
Why don't you eat me?

I am perfectly tasty...

AND I'LL STEAL YOUR SOUL! :twisted:

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Re: Iconoclasts - I didn't think humans were that strong.

Postby Ignoritus » 1 week ago

There's a lot of weird stuff going on under the hood with that final boss.

The different figures in the first phase all represent different characters. Turns out you actually have an affinity score with three of the characters in the game based on your dialogue choices when interacting with them. If you max affinity with them their corresponding monster won't attack you but will wait patiently while you raise the sunflower. The first is obviously Elro with the giant broken sword, the second is Mina, and the third is Royal. The fourth figure is Black, who it is impossible to gain affinity with. The final scene with Polro proceeds into the final boss regardless of whether or not you go to him. However it has one small and kind of non-sequitur effect on the fight in that if you hug Polro the birdman's shield will be of the type of rock you break with a charge-shot instead of explosive rocks. Personally I don't like that because Polro's speech kind of stands against everything the game seemed to be saying up to that point, so it seems odd that you're rewarded for hugging him. Finally, if you maxed affinity with Mina she'll join you for the second phase which is neat.

As for the birdman himself his introduction seems to have been very controversial among people, but personally I really like it. It's stupid, trivial, and makes everything everyone has died, suffered, and fought for thus far completely meaningless. And that's exactly the point the game was trying to make. All of this game's drama was because a spacebird wanted to fuel up his ship and found a way to make other people do his dirty work for him by convincing them that he, and by extension his goals, were important.
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Re: Iconoclasts - Stop fighting and preaching and getting people riled up just to get what you want.

Postby Cyril » 1 week ago

The Final Gravezone

Polro (Pre-Game) (???)
Agent Grey (Pre-Game) (Juice)
Mrs. Anders (Pre-Game) (Penance)
Henetta (Penance)
Ella (Penance)
Agent White (Seeds)
Gerrie (Fell)
The Silver Watchman (Drowned)
Mother (Seeds)
Father (Shot?)
Chrome (Juice)
Lawrence (Stabbed)
Black ( :( )
Royal (Eventually)
Leticia (Suicide)
Fitzroy (Leticia'd)
Him (Headsmashed)

this game's ending is really silly
also the game never says how Polro died but it's theorized he committed suicide for reasons I don't recall. it's not important.
i've honestly never played a video game in my life

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Re: Iconoclasts - I didn't think humans were that strong.

Postby TehRealSalt » 1 week ago

I only am now realizing that it's a bird because the protagonist's name is Robin

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Re: Iconoclasts - I didn't think humans were that strong.

Postby thatguyif » 1 week ago

Ignoritus wrote: As for the birdman himself his introduction seems to have been very controversial among people, but personally I really like it. It's stupid, trivial, and makes everything everyone has died, suffered, and fought for thus far completely meaningless. And that's exactly the point the game was trying to make. All of this game's drama was because a spacebird wanted to fuel up his ship and found a way to make other people do his dirty work for him by convincing them that he, and by extension his goals, were important.
I don't know if that was the case. The spacebird likely was hostile to the fact that these humans had been using his fuel depot indiscriminately. He probably didn't want them there in the first place. People had forgotten why they were on the planet in the first place, forgetting that they themselves came from another planet.

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Re: Iconoclasts - I didn't think humans were that strong.

Postby Blivsey » 1 week ago

it's a BIRD piloting a WORM guys

Good thing Royal threw one last tantrum and broke that face open, or Robin wouldn't have been able to save the world.

It's pretty fantastic that the almighty He whom all these people have been worshipping and murdering in the name of is basically the galactic equivalent of a trucker guy who stops at the local gas station once every few millennia. Wonder how many parsecs to the Ivory gallon that Starworm gets.

of course, the answer is none now that it's been seeded. maybe we could have somehow flown it up to the moon and picked up royal but oh well hope hes having fun
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Re: Iconoclasts - I didn't think humans were that strong.

Postby Ignoritus » 1 week ago

thatguyif wrote:
Ignoritus wrote: As for the birdman himself his introduction seems to have been very controversial among people, but personally I really like it. It's stupid, trivial, and makes everything everyone has died, suffered, and fought for thus far completely meaningless. And that's exactly the point the game was trying to make. All of this game's drama was because a spacebird wanted to fuel up his ship and found a way to make other people do his dirty work for him by convincing them that he, and by extension his goals, were important.
I don't know if that was the case. The spacebird likely was hostile to the fact that these humans had been using his fuel depot indiscriminately. He probably didn't want them there in the first place. People had forgotten why they were on the planet in the first place, forgetting that they themselves came from another planet.
The game doesn't spell its plot out and there are definitely different interpretations, but I believe the birdman had to have been behind the religion dedicated to him. Multiple One Concern members make reference to Mother and her predecessors communicating with the Starworm, and I have a hard time believing they co-developed the sin-beam technology by coincidence. Not to mention why would the birdman even have a ray that makes people feel immense guilt if not for using it to convince people of their sin and indoctrinate them into his religion?

There's certainly other possibilities, but his involvement makes sense to me based on what we know.
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Re: Iconoclasts - I didn't think humans were that strong.

Postby Advent Azure » 1 week ago

I'm gonna talk about the story, world, and setting of Iconoclasts now that it's over, and how this whole situation probably came about in the first place, and what I believe is how it all goes.

The world where the game takes place likely started as a planet that only had simple lifeforms, flora and fauna. At some point in time the Starworm comes to the planet, being ridden by a the birdman mechanic, or someone else of the birdman race, and alters it, to make it into a machine world. The planet spines are the mechanical parts of the world, as well as the quick travel elevator system.

Proof of this can be seen right at the start of the game, against the first boss even, with bird feathers being attached to the planet spines
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In fact, I believe it they may have lived on the planet for a time, or at the very least, humans build monuments dedicated to this birdman race
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The Omega Controller is part of this system installed by the birdman people, shuffling and moving about the world. Captain Myron, the pirate ship man deduces this, and tries to explain this to Robin and Royal, before Royal plugs his ears. There are more Omega controller frames scattered about the impact sight even, such as the one right beside the warp elevator
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At some point, humans come across the planet for some reason, in their ancestral vessels
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The USA Flag, UK Flag, Japan Flag, among others are on it, directly linking the vessels to earth.

At some point, a birdman comes to the planet in his Starworm space vehicle, and humans catch sight of it descending, and perhaps catch sight of a wrench. They revere the Starworm as a divine god, but the Isi do not. Perhaps this is because they never catch sight of it, due to landing in different places, or perhaps the Isi come from another world? That much is up to speculation.

Even so, the One Concern base a lot of their technology on what the Starworm has. They create a gun that has the exact effects that the Starworm can cause. Captain Myron steals that gun, and uses it on his two helpers to keep them in line even. Ivory becomes everything to the culture of the One Concern.

Because the Omega Controller is key to reshaping the lands, and is used by the birdman, cartography becomes outlawed on the planet by the One Concern.

The reason why the birdman came was likely to do his job as a mechanic, either to deal with what was broken, since he had a massive wrench on hand, and perhaps papers regarding all of this? Either that or he could simply be a space trucker who was low on fuel, and came to the planet specifically to refuel there.

Does anyone else have more to add regarding all this?
Last edited by Advent Azure on 03 Nov 2019, 01:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Iconoclasts - I didn't think humans were that strong.

Postby thatguyif » 1 week ago

Ignoritus wrote: The game doesn't spell its plot out and there are definitely different interpretations, but I believe the birdman had to have been behind the religion dedicated to him. Multiple One Concern members make reference to Mother and her predecessors communicating with the Starworm, and I have a hard time believing they co-developed the sin-beam technology by coincidence. Not to mention why would the birdman even have a ray that makes people feel immense guilt if not for using it to convince people of their sin and indoctrinate them into his religion?

There's certainly other possibilities, but his involvement makes sense to me based on what we know.
I feel that the only way your argument would work is if we believe that the humans were from there. There's considerable evidence to contradict that. Moreover, you would have to disregard the presence of Father and Fitzroy, who seemed to have both suffered a form of damnatio memoriae.

If I had to speculate what was really going on, watching this be played again...obviously this planet is an artificial planet that humans landed on and colonized (the "ancestral vessels" being colony ships), not knowing its function was as a fuel depot. They've likely been here for at least a millennium. They started using Ivory, understanding its unique properties, and used that to power civilization. At some point, they also figured out they could power themselves with Ivory, creating Transcendence technology (with Fitzroy being the first Transcended, i.e. the first Father) as a result.

The Father of those statues was a recent one, and had been figuring out ways to utilize the controllers for the benefits of the One Concern/Tri, as well as understanding the planetary spines and their function. He was also likely the person who persuaded Madelyn Binoche to Transcend, becoming Agent Black. He accidentally destroyed one of the big controllers, which summoned the Starworm. He tried to interact with the Starworm, and got hit with its mind rape cannon, which essentially destroyed his mind (basically Royal's plot, but the shot was more potent). Turned into a vegetable, his "progeny," who we know as Mother, initiated a palace coup, becoming the leader of the Tri while placing Father in permanent (though comfortable) house arrest. In the process, she rewrote the history books/holy texts to indicate the presence of the Starworm, shaping him into this vengeful God that will cause the Apocalypse should he ever return. This helped maintained control of Ivory usage. Moreover, she replaced all worship of Father with her own (which, given her vain and self-centered disposition, tracks well). So in other words, Father in the long scope of the game kick-started the plot by futzing with the wrong machinery.

They tried mining the big moon for Ivory, but the lack of organic matter meant the crust dried up quickly, causing the moon meteors.

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Re: Iconoclasts - Stop fighting and preaching and getting people riled up just to get what you want.

Postby Mineyl » 1 week ago

Cyril wrote: also the game never says how Polro died but it's theorized he committed suicide for reasons I don't recall. it's not important.
It might not be important, and I know it didn't make it into the final cut of the game, but the two demos from the start of this decade actually did have explanations for Polro's death, as you can see here:

2011 demo:
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2012 demo:
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icon2.png (59.2 KiB) Viewed 326 times
I'm glad I held onto these demos for all these years. I knew they'd come in handy! :lol: Anyway, all I can surmise from the final script is that Polro's CoD was either too unimportant to include or Konjak was having trouble coming up with a good reason (since the CoD changed between demos), though the way Black's text reads overall here, it makes the agents appear a bit more cold/uncaring than what we ultimately got.
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Re: Iconoclasts - I didn't think humans were that strong.

Postby strongbadman » 1 week ago

Tbe auotes between the cods make me think Polro's death was engineered and made to look like an accident. That's what I always thought, but his death being a genuine accident would mean Elro's lashing out was even more pointless.

Now it could be argued that Elro killing Grey in a heated moment did eventuly result in the world being saved. But iirc it was projected that the planet would run out of ivory in around 50 years, so Chemico Contra had that long to find an alternative energy solution. They do that, the entire planet isn't completely under the One Concern's thumb, maybe they start pulling back control Mother and a section of followers screw off to the moon base, and maybe a lot more people live.

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Re: Iconoclasts - I didn't think humans were that strong.

Postby Joseph Staleknight » 1 week ago

As far as my two cents go, I feel like the Birdman was only vaguely aware of the humans, but not enough to be able to reason with them--trying to indicate that they were wasting all the fuel in the depot only got a dismissive shrug from Robin, and he was presumably offended by that gesture. As far as he was concerned, the "vermin" didn't really care about how much Ivory it had leeched out of the planet. Kinda like a rat in the pantry, actually--a rat that was immune to poison and could beat up a mouser no problem.

If Konjak ever makes a sequel to this game, one of the big things I'd like to see is a continuation of the threads laid out by the Birdman's presence. Probably a larger-scale "first contact" when another Birdperson--perhaps a relative of the first--is hired to demolish the planet to "recycle old, non-functional machinery." Except they get in over their head when the "vermin" prove to be surprisingly sapient.

I'd throw more money at Konjak to see that sequel happen.

E: Also, if you decide to hug Polro in the final flashback sequence,

Robin doesn't get mad at the Starworm for subjecting her to her worst nightmares

. It might be because I was playing on Standard Mode, but I feel that it was either an oversight or Robin

got herself together enough not to get pissed and potentially do an Elro

. It's an interesting quirk either way it plays out.
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Re: Iconoclasts - I can't believe it. Humans are so flaky. I knew I should have asked the tengu about this instead.

Postby Nimono » 1 week ago

...the 2011 demo makes the most sense to me. Think about it...


Elro, in his anger at his father's death...gets records about a failed rocket launch? Why would he want that? Teegan's reaction implies to me that the ChemiCo Contra didn't really want to look into it, didn't see any info on non-ivory power sources coming from it, so why was Elro so interested?

Is it possible it relates to his father's death? It would explain why he blames the whole of One Concern for the death so much, to the point of never taking time off... And why he wanted those rocket records.

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Re: Iconoclasts - I didn't think humans were that strong.

Postby Kilgamayan » 1 week ago

TehRealSalt wrote: I only am now realizing that it's a bird because the protagonist's name is Robin
It's specifically a blue jay...because the protagonist's name is Robin.

Based on my own experience with the game and a lot of the speculation and discussion I've seen across the interbutts about this game, my personal opinion is that the blue jay creature not only did not make an active decision to become He, but it doesn't even know what humans are - him shuffling through cards is actually looking through pictures it has of creatures of other species, trying to figure out what the hell this tiny creature standing in front of it and punching its truck in the snout is. This would make it the ultimate Iconoclast of the game, not having one iota of divinity and being revered by this religion of creatures it's never met before purely because they just happened to spot its truck flying through the cosmos some time in the past.

Your (the player's) actions and decisions throughout the game do have consequences, though the only truly meaningful ones have been mentioned already the first three phases of the mindfuck portion of the boss fight, Mina joining you or not in the final phase, etc. (Obviously, trying to give you hints along the way about what to do to get Mina to participate in the final battle has been out of the question since this game was first scheduled.) The one I was most curious to see if you'd accidentally pursue is that, apparently, at least one of the ending scenes changes if you don't try to give Michi any of Zinaida's concoctions. I've never seen this myself, though.

I am similarly glad Mendeleev and Nobel get to survive and have their own little cutscene at the end of the game. If the purported sequel ever actually gets made, I hope they'd get to be a part of it and get more fleshed out.

Also I never noticed before today that halfcoordinated was one of the playtesters. Small world!

Anyway, thank you for playing and thoroughly enjoying this gem of a game! I admit I don't keep track of all of the games you play, but it genuinely feels like it's been years since you actually enjoyed a game you played top-to-bottom and didn't have any bouts of extreme frustration/anger. Perhaps this was helped along by the very generous checkpoint system, which prevents you from ever losing any major progress unless you actively try.

---

It was correctly pointed out that the thread gimmick was Nitori Kawashiro quotes, because I hate myself and am only capable of doing thread title gimmicks based on the contents of that day's video where I have a finite list of resources with which to work. A weeb gimmick in general was chosen because the game clearly has a lot of anime influence. A Nitori gimmick was chosen in particular because (a) mechanic, (b) Mountain of Faith, and (c) Nitori is of nontrivial significance to raoguy's LP career. I had originally planned on using attack and spell card names, but changed my mind to use lines of her dialogue to contrast with the fact that Robin is selectively mute (which is, for once, a plot point and not just because The RPG Protagonist Must Be Silent). As a point of incredibly minor, self-indulgent trivia, had I not gone the weeb route, the thread titles would have instead been the various items you can buy at the Hardware Store in the Weird Al Yankovic song of the same name. I figured you would do a tool-based video title gimmick of your own, though, which soured me on that idea.
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Re: Iconoclasts - I can't believe it. Humans are so flaky. I knew I should have asked the tengu about this instead.

Postby Le Neveu de Rameau » 1 week ago

For all its twists and turns, I think the central theme of Iconoclasts can be summed up thusly:

Elro? More like SMELL-ro!

End.

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Re: Iconoclasts - I can't believe it. Humans are so flaky. I knew I should have asked Awoo about this instead.

Postby Awoo » 1 week ago

Kilgamayan wrote: I can't believe it. Humans are so flaky. I knew I should have asked the tengu about this instead.


Totally 100% on topic,
Momiji is technically a Tengu

Awoo

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Re: Iconoclasts - I can't believe it. Humans are so flaky. I knew I should have asked the tengu about this instead.

Postby The Doctor » 1 week ago

I loved the characters in this game, but I never got invested in the story. The themes were fascinating, but the convoluted narrative didn't do them any justice. The final boss didn't underwhelm me because it was a wild blue jay out of nowhere, but because all the cool characters were gone and we were just left with our mute protagonist. raocow, why did you have to be mean to Mina? :(

Overall, awesome LP. Like I said earlier I didn't enjoy playing this game myself, but I think it works so much better as an LP where you can sit back and enjoy the story.

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Re: Iconoclasts - I can't believe it. Humans are so flaky. I knew I should have asked the tengu about this instead.

Postby BobisOnlyBob » 1 week ago

The Doctor wrote: why did you have to be mean to Mina? :(
...because she was meaner!
BOB is an acronym for BOB is Only BOB etc.

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Re: Iconoclasts - I can't believe it. Humans are so flaky. I knew I should have asked the tengu about this instead.

Postby thatguyif » 1 week ago

I feel like Mina being "mean" and flaky is because she has to deal with not only a manipulative mother, but a community that looks down on her relationship with Samba (who, being an outsider due to her own community being destroyed, never has to deal with that particular type of trauma). She runs away because she can't accept her lot in life.

Konjak does an extremely good job writing characters, but a terrible job creating lore and narrative.

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Re: Iconoclasts - I can't believe it. Humans are so flaky. I knew I should have asked the tengu about this instead.

Postby Blivsey » 1 week ago

Also rao wasn't really mean to her (no more than the game was at least), he just missed one or two of her flags
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Re: Iconoclasts - I can't believe it. Humans are so flaky. I knew I should have asked the tengu about this instead.

Postby BobisOnlyBob » 1 week ago

...no, I mean... she was meaner... like... Mina...
BOB is an acronym for BOB is Only BOB etc.


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