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Re: Iconoclasts - It's not like I'm fighting because I want to be popular.

Posted: 27 Oct 2019, 22:32
by Grounder
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fuck elro

Re: Iconoclasts - It's not like I'm fighting because I want to be popular.

Posted: 27 Oct 2019, 22:36
by BobisOnlyBob
Elro is a fantastic character and an absolutely loathsome individual. We are all the results of nature and nurture, sure, and we all get a range of choices that are limited based on those - but at EVERY SINGLE TIME Elro has had an opportunity to do anything, he has always chosen the single most selfish, stubborn, and straight-up aggravating choice possible. Yes, he's a product of circumstances that have left him bitter, but whenever he does get a chance to be a better person, even by one iota, he only budges for just long enough to sink to a new low.

Re: Iconoclasts - It's not like I'm fighting because I want to be popular.

Posted: 27 Oct 2019, 22:42
by Cyril
one thing that was pointed out to me when i played it is that every time elro does something stupidly selfish, he loses a body part. asking robin to help fix his house gets his family killed and he loses an eye. barreling in to confront black on his own gets his arm ripped off. refusing to push the button gets his legs blown off (or at least, incapacitated, i don't think he's gonna be using those legs again :V )

and the reciprocation happens almost immediately every time. he's just stubborn and refuses to learn from his mistakes even as he continuously gets bodily harmed every time.

even by the end of the game, he's still on the exact same bs, too e.e


Re: Iconoclasts - It's not like I'm fighting because I want to be popular.

Posted: 27 Oct 2019, 22:46
by Grounder
Cyril wrote: one thing that was pointed out to me when i played it is that every time elro does something stupidly selfish, he loses a body part. asking robin to help fix his house gets his family killed and he loses an eye. barreling in to confront black on his own gets his arm ripped off. refusing to push the button gets his legs blown off (or at least, incapacitated, i don't think he's gonna be using those legs again :V )

and the reciprocation happens almost immediately every time. he's just stubborn and refuses to learn from his mistakes even as he continuously gets bodily harmed every time.

even by the end of the game, he's still on the exact same bs, too e.e

can't wait for robin to mcfreaking lose it and tear off his head in iconoclasts 2: they're making statues made of rubber now. :monstrosity:

ok, i'll lay off elro for a while now

Re: Iconoclasts - It's not like I'm fighting because I want to be popular.

Posted: 27 Oct 2019, 22:59
by Nimono
This scene is half of WHY Elro's so hated as a person, but not a character. (This was clearly the intent behind his character, and it was really well-written!) At this point, all he cares about is forcing Robin to do as he wants, for HIS sake. Robin clearly wants to at least TRY to save the world- Elro's so caught up in "Already lost my family" that he's clinging to the idea that he NEEDS Robin to stay safe...in opposition to his sister's desires. He spells it out to Mina: he thinks Robin has no more right to make choices. In his own words, "Robin doesn't know what she wants!" He has decided for himself that Robin is wrong, and he is right, and his desires trump hers.

Elro is an awful person!


By the way, regarding the launch,

Teegan's the one that caused it. Black was completely dead after that battle. After this next section, she' doesn't outright say it, but she greatly hints it- she states she knows Elro well enough to know that if he says to stay behind, he'll handle it, it means he's not going to do a dang thing.




also that boss fight is basically THE best part of the game. It's so tragic and AWESOME. The music really sets the scene of a battle against a tragic character who has had nothing but pain her entire life, a battle that you wish never had to happen.

Re: Iconoclasts - It's not like I'm fighting because I want to be popular.

Posted: 27 Oct 2019, 23:09
by Blivsey
See, at this point, I can't defend Elro anymore because he's being straight-up cruel in his determination to stop Robin from willingly put herself in danger. At least in most instances before this, he's either trying to convince through words or putting himself on the danger block instead. Here, he's misled and tricked everyone into thinking he's conceded, only to grief them. That's just spiteful. And then he gives the wonderful line of "Robin doesn't know what she wants", and that's it, isn't it? Does he honestly believe Robin will accept his actions? Especially since he's being so underhanded about it?

I accept that he's doing it out of familial love. But he's become toxic. If it were me in Robin's shoes, I'd honestly just leave him.

rao realizing elro's plan was a great moment tho
Grounder wrote: can't wait for robin to mcfreaking lose it and tear off his head in iconoclasts 2: they're making statues made of rubber now. :monstrosity:

ok, i'll lay off elro for a while now
elro is just a brain in a jar in the sequel

somehow he still finds a way to lock robin in his stasis room or whatever
Nimono wrote: also that boss fight is basically THE best part of the game. It's so tragic and AWESOME. The music really sets the scene of a battle against a tragic character who has had nothing but pain her entire life, a battle that you wish never had to happen.
also fun fact: this is the first time in the entire game robin has straight-up murdered someone by her own hands and wasn't just an accessory to it. granted, she didn't have a choice, but...

Re: Iconoclasts - It's not like I'm fighting because I want to be popular.

Posted: 27 Oct 2019, 23:28
by Count Mohawk
Blivsey wrote: honestly i was pulling for black to join the playable cast right up until robin started shoving seeds into her, at which point it was pretty obviously not going to happen anymore :cry:
Mega props to Royal for doing a super good job making an honest effort to reach out immediately before the fight on the platform itself, particularly since Black was the one who smote his ruin into the detritus pit a few episodes ago.
I don't know what the necessary conditions would have been for Black to actually take their offer, though. It would definitely have been an alliance of necessity at best even if it had happened.

On an unrelated note: it's interesting how Black and Elro are more alike than I think either of them would ever admit, yet the former is basically the Ensemble Darkhorse of Iconoclasts while the latter is the character everyone loves to hate. (heresy, i know)

Re: Iconoclasts - It's not like I'm fighting because I want to be popular.

Posted: 27 Oct 2019, 23:39
by Blivsey
Count Mohawk wrote: On an unrelated note: it's interesting how Black and Elro are more alike than I think either of them would ever admit, yet the former is basically the Ensemble Darkhorse of Iconoclasts while the latter is the character everyone loves to hate. (heresy, i know)
I wouldn't say I "love to hate" Elro, it carries such an "ahaha hes such a scumbag hate-sink" vibe to it. Like the asshole teacher from Persona 4. It's more that he's a believable character who also happens to be a bad person. I guess you could say he's a character you want to see making better choices, and you end up disappointed to see him choosing the wrong actions time and time again.

So in that way, he's super-real, and kudos to the writing for making me (us?) so disappointed in a fictional character!

Re: Iconoclasts - It's not like I'm fighting because I want to be popular.

Posted: 27 Oct 2019, 23:55
by Ignoritus
Count Mohawk wrote: Mega props to Royal for doing a super good job making an honest effort to reach out immediately before the fight on the platform itself, particularly since Black was the one who smote his ruin into the detritus pit a few episodes ago.
I don't know what the necessary conditions would have been for Black to actually take their offer, though. It would definitely have been an alliance of necessity at best even if it had happened.
Black seemed to be on the verge of seeing the reason in Royal's point up until Royal said "this is bigger than you". That was kind of a berserk button for Black considering Black has lived her entire life in suffering because she was trying to focus on something bigger than her.
Count Mohawk wrote: On an unrelated note: it's interesting how Black and Elro are more alike than I think either of them would ever admit, yet the former is basically the Ensemble Darkhorse of Iconoclasts while the latter is the character everyone loves to hate. (heresy, i know)
I consider Black and Elro to be foils of eachother, and they're my favorite part of this game. Black is a character who is on the "wrong" side for selfless reasons. Her pragmatic desire to save humanity causes her to do awful things in the name of the greater good. Elro is a character who is on the "right" side for entirely selfish reasons; he fights the One Concern entirely in the name of his own quest for vengeance for wrongs both real and perceived. I adore the way in which the game establishes that the axises between "right and wrong", "good guy and bad guy", and "protagonist and antagonist" are all very separate through these characters.

Re: Iconoclasts - It's not like I'm fighting because I want to be popular.

Posted: 28 Oct 2019, 00:17
by Count Mohawk
Ignoritus wrote:
Count Mohawk wrote: Mega props to Royal for doing a super good job making an honest effort to reach out immediately before the fight on the platform itself, particularly since Black was the one who smote his ruin into the detritus pit a few episodes ago.
I don't know what the necessary conditions would have been for Black to actually take their offer, though. It would definitely have been an alliance of necessity at best even if it had happened.
Black seemed to be on the verge of seeing the reason in Royal's point up until Royal said "this is bigger than you". That was kind of a berserk button for Black considering Black has lived her entire life in suffering because she was trying to focus on something bigger than her.
Well, there's always fanfiction *shrug*

Re: Iconoclasts - She's heeeeereー It's her, it's her!

Posted: 28 Oct 2019, 03:08
by Kilgamayan
RIP Best Character ;_;7

In case anyone is curious, I have provided a very-heavily-spoiler-marked multi-level guide to the optional extra content this game has to offer. I did not do anything like a 100% Item Collection guide, though (as I said I would not). Specifically...
I have provided information for how to get to

Fitzroy and the Corners

, though I did not say anything about

who they are - not even their names - or what their battles are like

.
If anyone was concerned about this content, hopefully this will alleviate their fears.

Re: Iconoclasts - She's heeeeereー It's her, it's her!

Posted: 28 Oct 2019, 04:10
by strongbadman
Black had her last headache

Re: Iconoclasts - She's heeeeereー It's her, it's her!

Posted: 28 Oct 2019, 16:31
by tirakai
This Black fight and the Mina-Elro scene afterwards is certainly an incredible culmination of everything up to this point.

- Black's gradual shift from being an anger-fuelled villain to a sympathetic character of tragedy, who gets everything she loves taken away from her
- Elro's contrasting shift from being a sympathetic and tragic if over-protective older brother to a selfish paranoid devil who continually sabotages himself, his family, and anyone around him
- Royal lecturing someone, saying what he feels is the objective truth and the only option but only serving to make Black even angrier and make the situation worse
- Mina meaning well, just wanting to help save people, but getting too worked up and potentially ruining something in a fit of anger
- and Robin being forced to break her sort-of pacifism she's had up to now and personally kill someone by her own hand

the boss theme as well is perfectly fitting too, having an essence of tragedy in the first stage to match Black character arc. I love this game and its character development so much.

Re: Iconoclasts - She's heeeeereー It's her, it's her!

Posted: 28 Oct 2019, 22:22
by strongbadman
Well, Elro was right. The rocket didn't help, and all it accomplished was the deaths of 3 people, the destruction of the moon base, and the star worm coming even sooner.

But he's alsl the catalyst for most of Robin's problems throughout the game- and by extension those three deaths. And the herry on top is that he never apologizes, never admits that he's done anything wrong. The only thing he says to Robin is asking her to spend her last moments alone with him, as if she wouldn't be completely justified in hating him at this point.

The only thing missing is that I don't think Teegan told her about Grey. Black hinted at it, bit iirc that's as far as Robin knows

Re: Iconoclasts - She's heeeeereー It's her, it's her!

Posted: 28 Oct 2019, 23:24
by BobisOnlyBob
strongbadman wrote: Well, Elro was right.
Elro has rarely ever been wrong as in logically wrong (he's done plenty morally wrong), he's just been an absolutely unreasonable asshole about it every time.

Re: Iconoclasts - She's heeeeereー It's her, it's her!

Posted: 28 Oct 2019, 23:50
by Nimono
strongbadman wrote: Well, Elro was right. The rocket didn't help, and all it accomplished was the deaths of 3 people, the destruction of the moon base, and the star worm coming even sooner.

Actually, I'd argue it DID help- fighting the Starworm was never considered until after the events at Midway, and Royal bursting it open a bit provides you the ONLY location to damage it in the fight. Things that would never have happened had everyone just gone "Nah, rocket won't work, let's just go home and prepare to die." Robin maybe would've gone to fight it anyway, but... There's no way she would've been able to damage it, and it's unlikely Royal would've gone with her to fight it, given that's his god.


Re: Iconoclasts - She's heeeeereー It's her, it's her!

Posted: 29 Oct 2019, 00:24
by Grounder
Couple of good spots here for fix fics, I think.

Not arbitrarily having to leave Royal, successful communication with the Starworm, Elro coming out of nowhere with a heel realization...

Re: Iconoclasts - She's heeeeereー It's her, it's her!

Posted: 29 Oct 2019, 00:52
by Blivsey
...well that was depressing

uhhhhhhh HEY GUYS ICONOCLASTS IS ON SALE ON STEAM FOR 60% OFF WHAT NICE TIMING

also as of right now raocow has played iconoclasts for 6.9 hours

Re: Iconoclasts - She's heeeeereー It's her, it's her!

Posted: 29 Oct 2019, 01:23
by Ignoritus
If Royal's death upsets you just remember that he cannot die while he is in the presence of Ivory, so he's not dead.

He's just trapped in an indefinite loop of asphyxiating to death, reviving, and doing it again until he drains all of the Ivory from his surroundings.

Re: Iconoclasts - No Matter How I Look at It, It's You Guys' Fault I'm Not Popular!

Posted: 29 Oct 2019, 01:37
by Awoo
Ignoritus wrote: If Royal's death upsets you just remember that he cannot die while he is in the presence of Ivory, so he's not dead.

He's just trapped in an indefinite loop of asphyxiating to death, reviving, and doing it again until he drains all of the Ivory from his surroundings.
Well, how comforting :ehh:

Re: Iconoclasts - She's heeeeereー It's her, it's her!

Posted: 29 Oct 2019, 01:56
by wyldstrykr
now we wait for someone who has a lot of time to do "have a hamburger" compilation

Re: Iconoclasts - She's heeeeereー It's her, it's her!

Posted: 29 Oct 2019, 02:04
by Cyril
i'm not updating the gravezone because royal technically won't be dead for a good long while : )

Re: Iconoclasts - She's heeeeereー It's her, it's her!

Posted: 29 Oct 2019, 02:33
by Count Mohawk
Cyril wrote: i'm not updating the gravezone because royal technically won't be dead for a good long while : )
then you should come back to this thread in like 2-3 years and pull a necro out of nowhere as the ending half of that brick joke

Re: Iconoclasts - You're such an idiot. How can a magician be so ignorant?

Posted: 29 Oct 2019, 03:41
by Cyril
i think it will take royal more than a few years to absorb every last drop of ivory on the moon

Re: Iconoclasts - You're such an idiot. How can a magician be so ignorant?

Posted: 29 Oct 2019, 03:43
by Ignoritus
Cyril wrote: i think it will take royal more than a few years to absorb every last drop of ivory on the moon
To be fair I believe they can only draw Ivory from directly around them. Hence why they can't regenerate in the detritus pits, because those rooms have no Ivory directly around the captives to absorb.