Re: Iconoclasts - I really am neck-deep in this whole contest after all, huh.
the icon clasts back
For the record, if anyone's still unclear on what he did:thatguyif wrote: ↑4 years ago Like...consider today's video. When it came to explaining what Royal did to earn Mother's wrath, it's actually vague. "You sinned!" "You were arrogant!" "You have doomed us all!" They only once mention something that seemed relevant (summoning the Starworm), and even then it's not explained how he did that or what the consequence of that is other than the end of the world.
He helped you destroy the Omega Wheel, which was what signaled the Starworm.
"you destroyed something that was locked away for a reason"
The cat's name is revealed to be Oedipuss, and the music for the Mother fight on the OST is named "Vs. Oedipuss". So it's presumably Mother's cat and the boss was either modeled in his image or he was *actually controlling it* for her.
To answer your question as best I can*, I would say that, given the gameplay experiences in the videos, anything that would alter future gameplay experience in a non-trivial manner constitutes a spoiler and should be marked as such. (Exceptions can be made for core game mechanic info dumps that do not provide meaningful information on how to solve specific puzzles and for accidental skips of explicit story-dumps.) This can range from outright story discussion, to item-collection puzzles - I am still exceedingly not thrilled with whoever was dumping info about that one high-on-a-ledge key in the Wasteland - to "calling out foreshadowing" like what happened earlier in the thread, to random odds and ends like raocow apparently not yet noticing that
two important One Concern characters share names with the Ascent and the Shockwood
. I hold that the purity of the playthrough must be maintained as much as possible, and as a direct result of that, anything that would violate said purity in any fashion should be spoiler-marked.Also, if I remember correctly, Elro still has a chance to change rao's mind on how reasonable he is right now.
So Elro's totally going to sabotage the rocket launch, right? That's clearly why he doesn't want Teegan to go with him or do the job instead of him. He's going to sabotage the launch to keep Robin safe.
They're literally going to die anyway as far as everyone understands. It's either do something and risk dying or do nothing and die for sure. And, again, he never brings up my idea of swapping Robin out as well. At least some of it is him simply being contrarian, IMO.The Doctor wrote: ↑4 years ago Yes, Elro has someone who can take his place in the mission, but that's not the point. All he cares about right now is protecting Robin. His father (recently?) died, his wife and daughter were killed, and he lost an eye and an arm. The only thing he has left in his life is his sister. He doesn't want her to go on some suicide mission to save the world. He doesn't care about the world any more. He doesn't even care about himself. He's definitely in the wrong, but his actions are totally understandable.
That's the funny thing about certain death, though. Once you've resigned yourself to your own mortality, all other (lesser) concerns just kinda fall away, and you're left with the freedom to decide what you're going to do with your remaining time. Whereas with uncertain death, the drive to avoid that fate remains an important factor. And when the chips are down, as they definitely are here, people will take certain death over uncertain death basically every time. (There's probably a Discworld reference to be had in there somewhere, but I can't remember the exact quote enough to go looking for it.)Grounder wrote:They're literally going to die anyway as far as everyone understands. It's either do something and risk dying or do nothing and die for sure. And, again, he never brings up my idea of swapping Robin out as well. At least some of it is him simply being contrarian, IMO.
My problem with this interpretation is that it adheres to what Elro says instead of what Elro does. Elro is a hypocrite through-and-through who constantly claims he only cares about protecting Robin while he constantly endangers her. His idea of "protection" also has a blatant disrespect for Robin's autonomy. Keep in mind that Elro's family being dead and everything that has happened to Robin thus far is because he let his anger get the best of him, took it out someone who was at least ostensibly kind to him, didn't tell anyone in his family he was wanted, hung around them, and then encouraged Robin to commit a crime when he knew the Agents were after him, getting her implicated too. His pointless grandstanding attempting to take Agent Black alone is what caused Robin to have to go chasing after him for the whole latter section of the game.The Doctor wrote: ↑4 years ago Yes, Elro has someone who can take his place in the mission, but that's not the point. All he cares about right now is protecting Robin. His father (recently?) died, his wife and daughter were killed, and he lost an eye and an arm. The only thing he has left in his life is his sister. He doesn't want her to go on some suicide mission to save the world. He doesn't care about the world any more. He doesn't even care about himself. He's definitely in the wrong, but his actions are totally understandable.
So Elro's totally going to sabotage the rocket launch, right? That's clearly why he doesn't want Teegan to go with him or do the job instead of him. He's going to sabotage the launch to keep Robin safe.
And of course, it only gets worse when he later reveals that he's wasting everyone's time trying to lay some elaborate "trap" to force Robin to come back with him. He didn't have to participate but he literally lied to everyone just to try and control Robin again. He's a terrible person.
Yeah this is why I DESPISE Elro, though I think he was written TO be despised, in which case they did a great job.Ignoritus wrote: ↑4 years agoMy problem with this interpretation is that it adheres to what Elro says instead of what Elro does. Elro is a hypocrite through-and-through who constantly claims he only cares about protecting Robin while he constantly endangers her. His idea of "protection" also has a blatant disrespect for Robin's autonomy. Keep in mind that Elro's family being dead and everything that has happened to Robin thus far is because he let his anger get the best of him, took it out someone who was at least ostensibly kind to him, didn't tell anyone in his family he was wanted, hung around them, and then encouraged Robin to commit a crime when he knew the Agents were after him, getting her implicated too. His pointless grandstanding attempting to take Agent Black alone is what caused Robin to have to go chasing after him for the whole latter section of the game.The Doctor wrote: ↑4 years ago Yes, Elro has someone who can take his place in the mission, but that's not the point. All he cares about right now is protecting Robin. His father (recently?) died, his wife and daughter were killed, and he lost an eye and an arm. The only thing he has left in his life is his sister. He doesn't want her to go on some suicide mission to save the world. He doesn't care about the world any more. He doesn't even care about himself. He's definitely in the wrong, but his actions are totally understandable.
So Elro's totally going to sabotage the rocket launch, right? That's clearly why he doesn't want Teegan to go with him or do the job instead of him. He's going to sabotage the launch to keep Robin safe.
As others have pointed out, he's pissmad here because even though in his eyes Robin will die either way he cares more about making sure Robin dies with him, on his terms than letting her fill out her desire to try and stop the apocalypse. He once again attempts to control and possess Robin while completely ignoring her feelings. It's relatable for him to want to be with her for the end, but it's still scummy the way in which he places his own desires above hers especially when you remember that it has been a pattern for the entire game.
And of course, it only gets worse when he later reveals that he's wasting everyone's time trying to lay some elaborate "trap" to force Robin to come back with him. He didn't have to participate but he literally lied to everyone just to try and control Robin again. He's a terrible person.
Kilgamayan wrote: raocow apparently not yet noticing thattwo important One Concern characters share names with the Ascent and the Shockwood
.
ALL the areas are named after important One Concern characters, actually! In the Bastion, you see characters named Glass, Shard, Ferrier, and Darland. In the Tower, you also learn of one named Block, I forget if you actually meet them. The non-Concern areas of the game are GLASS Strait, SHARD Desert, FERRIER Shockwood, DARLAND Ascent, and BLOCKrock. It's another reminder of how much control the One Concern has over the world.
Block/Blockrock is, I think, the guy who ran out of the city council room before you enter it. The Iconoclasts wiki says the other way around, that the grey-haired lady is Blockrock and the guy who ran out is Shard but obviously that doesn't line up with the in-game textboxes so I dunno what to think, but yeah, aside from Isilugar and the One Concern area (Tower/West/East/City) all the areas are named after people. I wonder if they get renamed every time one of them dies and has to be replaced. Either that or the One Concern is much younger than they want us to believe.
Also, Nobel's vanishing act should have seemed oddly familiar, even right down to the sound effects!
according to the iconoclasts wiki the other two are fine, elro is just like that
For me, it's more a "love to hate" kind of thing. I hate his attitude toward the end, with how much he tries to deny Robin the ability to decide whether or not to help Royal try one final thing to maybe save the world, but I love how well-written he is, and how despite how much I hate him, I can't deny he has some points in places.The Doctor wrote: ↑4 years ago Yeah, I don't get it. Elro has flaws and he's made huge mistakes, but that's why I love the character. I see these posts like "and here's what Elro did wrong and why he's a bad person" and I'm like, yeah, I know. That's what I like about him. *shrugs*
Most video game characters tend to be kinda perfect (or pure evil), so it's great to see someone so human. Characters who have hang ups and flaws and fuck up big time. Characters who make mistakes and don't always learn from them. I love it and if I want to see more characters like Elro.
And the fact that he agreed to help Royal for the express purpose of sabotaging his efforts, SOLELY so he could force Robin back home with him. It's a major sticking point for him- for all she's gone through, all she's DONE for him, all he wants is to deny her the ability to choose.
We never get to see Robin's reaction to Elro repeatedly demanding over the ENTIRE GAME past Isilugar that she go home, but I'm sure she doesn't appreciate him constantly trying to impose his desire to have her continue being alive while he's alive over her desires and choices.There's a difference between "well-written and understandable character" and "likable character" though. Elro is the former but not the latter.Awoo wrote: ↑4 years agoDon't really understand all the hate for Elro myself either. Have done my best to avoid any and all inline spoilers, so thanks for that, everyone!
He reached one heck of a despair event horizon, so it's not like his actions are necessarily acceptable, but I can at least understand where he's coming from. Of course things can only get more interesting, so, yeah. Not sure what to expect