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Donkey Kong Country 3 - Unbelievable type of a situation

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Le Neveu de Rameau
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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby Le Neveu de Rameau » 1 month ago

J. J. W. Mezun wrote: raocow made a comment on yesterday’s video ’bout the “Enguard Kongtroversy” that he wanted to adapt it to sound mo’ like English, like how it seems French speakers do when they take foreign words ( & I know that Spanish does with foreign words ). This is interesting, as this concept doesn’t actually exist in English: English is just a mishmash o’ pronunciations from different languages with no consistent rules.
I wouldn't go quite that far. And much as English likes to blame its kookier aspects on other languages, English orthography being a mess has very little to do with loanwords--German has plenty of loanwords from French and usually retains the French spelling and at least an approximation of French pronunciation, yet its orthography is far more consistent--but instead is overwhelmingly due to historical sound shifts within English itself, and is particularly due to the fact that the English orthography we know and hate started to get, if not exactly standardized in the contemporary sense, at least laid down in a broad rule-of-thumb sense right in the middle of the Great Vowel Shift, but not before the shift was complete.

Speaking of language history, as a general rule, the older a loanword is, the more heavily it tends to be adapted to the loaning language, either in terms of its spelling being changed to fit the orthography of the loaning language (if it's a word initially more written than spoken), its spelling being changed to fit the pronunciation (if it's spoken more than written), or a bit of both. And indeed, for the most part, the French loanwords which have been most thoroughly anglicized in pronunciation are usually the ones that have been around the longest, whereas more recent loans, like "en guarde", tend to have a pronunciation which is closer to the original (if still frequently an approximation; "en garde" in English certainly hasn't changed to /ɛn gwɑ:(ɹ)d/, but it's not the original /ɑ̃ ɡaʁd/, either, English having neither nasal vowels nor /ʁ/, so speakers tend to settle on /ɑn ˈɡɑ:(ɹ)d/ as a compromise). Such is the case with other loans, like peetza or hal-uh-peenyo. And no one would ever think to rhyme "Pizza Hut" with "fizzer butt".

Another important thing to take in to account is that loanwords are affected by sound shifts, too, both in the loaning language, and the language of origin, which means the pronunciation in both the source and loaning language will inevitably start to drift over time. So when English speakers pronounce "judge" with an affricate /dʒ/ sound and not a pure fricative /ʒ/ sound like a good Frenchmen, it's not because they're slovenly degenerates, it's because that's how they've been pronouncing it since 1066. Indeed, we should should expect nothing other than /dʒ/, a that's the sound that French "juge" (or rather "iuge", as it would have initially been spelled, a distinct "j" character not really emerging until 1500 or so) was pronounced with in Old Norman French (reduction to /ʒ/ being a later development). And when that word was loaned in to English, it was the Old Norman French pronunciation--which was quite different from Modern Standard French--that the word was adopted with, and that's the pronunciation it kept, subsequent English sound shifts excepted.

Another thing to take in to account is that loanwords themselves can influence "normal" spelling in the language adopting them. Let's look again at "judge"...Funny word, that, spelling /dʒ/ with "j" and the start of the words, then with "dg" and a silent -e at the end. A lot of English words do that, come to think of it. I wonder why that is? It's doubly odd, considering the letter "J" is all other Germanic languages represents a "Y"-sound...the Y-sound is even written as /j/ in IPA*. Why did English start using "J" to represent /dʒ/, but only at the start of words?

Well, Old English, it turns out, did have /dʒ/, but only in the middle or at the end of words ( it comes from Proto-Germanic /ɣj/, which also never occurred word-initially). In Old English, this sound was written "ċġ" (usually without the diacritics), which becomes "dg" in modern spelling; compare Old English "eċġ" and modern English "edge", both pronounced the same and meaning the same thing (albeit usually only a sharp edge in OE; compare modern Danish "æg"). Old French, on the other hand, had no such compunctions about putting /dʒ/ at the start of words. Its own /dʒ/ came from Latin /j/ (again, a Y-sound), which occurs word-initially all the time, like in IVLIVS CAESAR. "ċġ" was not a combination English-speakers were used to seeing word-initially, however, and thus something like "ċġuċġ" looked inelegant. Since you only found this sound at the start of French words, though, why not use the French spelling? And that's what they did.

tldr: You anglicize old loanwords (like "judge" or "render"), but usually not newer ones (like "pizza" and "en guarde"), and most dumb things about English are based on domestic problems, so don't blame other languages for your homegrown sound shifts setting cock-a-hoop in your orthography.

* But why does English use the letter "Y" and not "J" to represent the phoneme /j/, then? Well, simply put, English *never* used the letter "J" (or "i"; remember, they were not consistently distinguished in writing at first) for that purpose. Of course Old English, like all Germanic languages, had lots of words that started with the /j/ sound--in fact it had more, since word-initial /g/, when immediately followed by /i/ or /e/, palatalized to /j/, which is why you have "yesterday in English but "Gestern" in German. So what did English start doing? It started writing them all with the letter "ġ", even when there was never historically a /g/ sound there to begin with, even when the next sound was not /i/ or /e/ (in which case they wrote a silent dummy "e" after the "g"). However, following the loaning of a great number of words with word-initially /ge/ and /gi/ from Old Norse, whether this represented /j/ or /g/ became increasingly ambiguous. Enter French.

How did French handle word-initial /j/ which hadn't been transformed to /dʒ/ (usually on account of being a later development)? It used "Y", which is to say Greek Upsilon, pronounced like German "ü" or French "u" in Ancient Greek (and transcribed as /y/ in IPA), but usually rendered as /i/ by those vulgar Latins. French already had "i" to represent /i/ (and would ultimately just use "u" to represent /y/ after /u/ shifted to /y/), of course, what was it to do with this spare upsilon? Just use it to represent the consonant equivalent of /i/, that is to say /j/.

Old English already used the letter "y", it should be stated, again for /y/, this ü-sound. However, in the Middle English period, this unrounded to /i/, so the letter "y" again became redundant. And thus the French use of "y" was adopted to fill the gap for word-initial /j/, regardless of whether it came from French, Proto-Germanic /j/, or palatalized Proto-Germanic /g/.
Last edited by Le Neveu de Rameau on 08 Oct 2019, 15:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby raocow » 1 month ago

this post is underappreciated
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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby FourteenthOrder » 1 month ago

To add on with kind of a less important footnote, it's kind of strange to me that jalapeño is the example used originally for not-being-anglicized because, like, it totally is.

For starters, the "j" in Spanish is /x/, a voiceless velar fricative, which doesn't exist in most modern dialects of English (Scottish being the most famous exception, in word endings like in "loch"), so it's instead given a glottal place of articulation and realized as English's native voiceless back fricative, /h/.

The "ñ" is underlyingly a /ɲ/ in Spanish, but English does not have that sound as its own separate phoneme; we get it when /n/ appears before a palatal consonant. As such, in English we get an underlying /nj/, which is typically pronounced [ɲj], which is only subtly different. But on top of that a lot of the time we see the syllable boundary shifted from a syllable-initial /nj/ to a syllable-ending /n/ followed by a syllable-initial /j/, which for many speakers causes the /n/ to be initially articulated as [n].

Additionally, lots of people spell it without the tilde, so we see an example of spelling having an effect on pronunciation, with the /ɲ/ being reanalyzed as /n/ for lots of speakers. Piña colada is a more glaring example of this particular phenomenon, as I rarely see it spelled with the ñ in my day-to-day life and [n] is easily the most common pronunciation here, at least.

As for the vowels, they're all different, as is often the case with loanwords:
-English "a" is for the most part pronounced further back than in Spanish (/ɑ/ as opposed to /a/). On top of that the first "a" is in many (most?) speakers realized as /æ/ (like in ash), and in British dialects that's about the only pronunciation I hear (albeit I don't hear a whole lot of British speakers). And honestly you could make a case for /æ/ being closer in position to /a/ than /ɑ/ is in the first place, even though speakers of many dialects of English (including me) don't hear the /a~ɑ/ distinction outside of a vacuum.
-The second "a" is consistently pronounced [ə] in English, thanks to English stress rules typically reducing vowels in unstressed syllables to schwas.
-The "e" is the longer /eɪ/ as opposed to the Spanish /e/, but many speakers have an /i:/ instead (for those not IPA-versed, that's "ee" rather than "ay").
-The "o" is pretty consistently the diphthong /oʊ/ in the US and /əʊ/ in the UK because of how long vowels work in English, as opposed to the Spanish /o/.
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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby Le Neveu de Rameau » 1 month ago

FourteenthOrder wrote: Additionally, lots of people spell it without the tilde, so we see an example of spelling having an effect on pronunciation, with the /ɲ/ being reanalyzed as /n/ for lots of speakers. Piña colada is a more glaring example of this particular phenomenon, as I rarely see it spelled with the ñ in my day-to-day life and [n] is easily the most common pronunciation here, at least.
Funny you should mention that, as I work at a bar where we serve both a caipirinha and a piña colada (spelled, sure enough, without the tilde on the menu, even though it's hand-written). Everyone pronounces the "nh" in "caipirinha" as /ɲ/ (well, more often just /nj/, but even so), yet hardly anyone pronounces "piña" with anything other than /n/. I have no explanation for this, aside from the aforementioned reanalysis. If I ever find a marker in the same color the menu was written in, I may sneakily write a tilde over the n and see if this has any effect on customers' pronunciation habits.

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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby FourteenthOrder » 1 month ago

Le Neveu de Rameau wrote: If I ever find a marker in the same color the menu was written in, I may sneakily write a tilde over the n and see if this has any effect on customers' pronunciation habits.
PLEASE DO THIS I AM SO CURIOUS
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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby BobisOnlyBob » 1 month ago

Le Neveu de Rameau wrote: caipirinha


I have nothing of value to contribute to the linguistics discussion
BOB is an acronym for BOB is Only BOB etc.

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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby KobaBeach » 1 month ago



silently following the lp
ROMる、ROMる
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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby BobisOnlyBob » 1 month ago

KobaBeach wrote:
you never cease to surprise me while also being exactingly predictable, and yes, that is entirely a compliment
BOB is an acronym for BOB is Only BOB etc.

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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby KobaBeach » 1 month ago

i wanna bury my face in his fluffy chest (゚∀゚)
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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby MonkeyShrapnel » 1 month ago

I love how extremely off-topic talkhaus can get.

raocow questions the pronunciation of Enguarde's name, and now look where we are.
Uh...Do I just sign here? What do you mean it should be obvious? There are people in this world...well...a whole lot of people that can't follow basic instructions!

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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kheetah Kountry!

Postby Awoo » 1 month ago

raocow wrote: this post is underappreciated
I "fart-liked" it if it's any consolation :'3
KobaBeach wrote:


silently following the lp
ROMる、ROMる


i legit had no idea that this song had actual lyrics until I found this one^

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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby J. J. W. Mezun » 1 month ago

I think “Tyrant Twin Tussle” makes a solid regular-game level, but a poor example o’ a bonus-world level.

“Swoopy Salvo” is yet ’nother “dodge moving obstacles” level, but definitely the best, since you’re not expected to just wait round for a shield to come round, but can manoeuvrer yourself to aim for the gaps ’tween birds without stopping if you have quick reflexes. If there was a bit mo’ variety, this would be a DKC2-quality level.

raocow, you should be glad you couldn’t play the next bonus-world level yet…
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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kheetah Kountry!

Postby KobaBeach » 1 month ago

Awoo wrote:

i legit had no idea that this song had actual lyrics until I found this one^

i actually like this remix like a lot? i first heard it in a nico medley

i just really like house okay
im@s is pretty cool too
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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kheetahmen Kountry!

Postby Awoo » 1 month ago

KobaBeach wrote:
Awoo wrote:
i actually like this remix like a lot? i first heard it in a nico medley

i just really like house okay
im@s is pretty cool too
It's easily the best thing to ever come from Action 52

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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby strongbadman » 1 month ago

Fun fact, I'm pretty sure the Bear will read that code exactly once ever, so uh, hope you were paying attenion!

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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby KobaBeach » 1 month ago

Finally we head into Bowser's Castlevania

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Baffle has absolutely pre-2000s programmer vibes and I love him.
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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby Kilgamayan » 1 month ago

I have anticipated very few things in life more than a certain level tomorrow. It will either be a giant ball of nothing or the game's grand revenge for all of the commentary throughout the LP. Can't wait to find out which!
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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby Mandew » 1 month ago

I'm actually not too worried for the next level, but rather for the level after
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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby Piesonscreations » 1 month ago

Every time raocow mentions ghost money, i can only think of this vine
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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby J. J. W. Mezun » 1 month ago

“Konveyor Rope Klash”’s 1 o’ those gimmicks — DKC3 has many, actually — that seems so obvious, it’s surprising they hadn’t done it yet. This level feels like a DKC2 level: its gimmick isn’t as wacky as some o’ DKC3’s wackier gimmicks, it gives breaks doing basic platforming, & it hides bonus items in BS hard-to-find places.

“Creepy Caverns”. A generic name for a super cool gimmick. Man, many o’ these levels should’ve been in the bonus world; this is far mo’ memorable & devious than than the Chucky Twins or upward-shooting barrels that warp through bees. I always hated getting to that bonus, though: the hitboxes on the phantom barrels is stupid & can just pick you up e’en if you’re clearly ’bove the barrel. This is ’cause Rare made barrels have generous hitboxes, since they’re usually good, & you usually want to give good things generous hitboxes. However, in this case, barrels are bad, so they should have much less generous hitboxes.

Much like most o’ the bears in this game, I forgot all ’bout Baffle & probably ne’er gave him the mirror ’cause I probably ne’er thought to ask for it back from Bluster. But I did just guess that you could figure-8 those rocks ’cause, I mean, ¿why have 2 rocks next to each other like that if you don’t want the player to do figure-8s round them?

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DUN DUN DUN DUN ♫
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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby Xenesis » 1 month ago

Koin had some serious revenge today.

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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby Mandew » 1 month ago

yeah, I think Koindozer Klamber is one of the worst levels in the game, just due to how unclear the bonk condition is. Thankfully it's not as demanding as your typical ROMhack.

Poisonous Pipelines is a solid level except for "getting out of the water" being very janky. It also has a very unfortunate placement, being right before the final boss. I died a few times at the Final Boss getting confused in my controls in the past. It was pretty funny, honestly.
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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby KobaBeach » 1 month ago

I like all of the levels today, tbh.

Lightning Look-Out is very funny because someone actually suggested I make that in SMW for a collab hack that never went through and like I was too inexperienced at the time????

I could probably do it now if I just put some elbow grease into it and use Dynamic Z to make it accurate to the original graphics. I'd rather wait for Dyzen to get another release first because patches are annoying lol



Koindozer Klamber is also very funny because, again, Brutal Mario? The level's name is even the Japanese name for Koindozer Klamber (Koindozer's Forest/コインドーザーのもり). For the longest time I thought the trash can lid was a rock wheel they had appended to their helmets due to the low graphical fidelity in circa 2007 SMW. The level wasn't really that special or very good, like most of Demo 7 Brutal, at least it was focused? Crystal Snail and Simba's Return have beautiful graphics but the way they were used in the level is kind of not how they should be used imo.
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A few people complained about Poisonous Pipeline but I dont get it? Reverse controls aren't the end of the world for me. Trying to remember which VIP level had the reverse controls but I need a refresher. Haven't played VIP in a while orz
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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby Kilgamayan » 1 month ago

Koin's Revenge <3
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Re: Donkey Kong Country 3 - Welcome to Kanada!

Postby ShadowTurtle » 1 month ago

Hey raocow. If I were to send you a save file for the extra world in the gba version of this game would you play it or no?


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