Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Legend of Randorland 3
Posted: 26 Jun 2019, 03:58
by Sebby19
I'm just waiting for the man himself to fill us in on his Let's Play philosophy. I am curious what its like now, 10 years later.
Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Legend of Randorland 3
Posted: 26 Jun 2019, 04:00
by warpio
I think if the backseating is really getting to you then it might be worth playing an extra day or so ahead of your uploads so that at least you'll have a bit more of a chance to figure things out on your own.
Sticking to a "same day" upload schedule is very commendable but if it's ruining your enjoyment of the game then there's no shame in changing it. At the end of the day people still get to watch you play and comment and it's not like you can't still join the conversation about things you did a few days ago. It's a better solution than outright closing the comments imo.
Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Legend of Randorland 3
Posted: 26 Jun 2019, 04:21
by Mandew
ano0maly wrote: ↑4 years ago
I already said the discussion should contribute to the experience rather than dictate it. He can have his own input too. The LPer is allowed to play, as are the viewers allowed to talk.
Obviously I'll just restate what I already said if you skip over everything I just said about let's plays and respond to an old comment without considering the resulting replies to it.
raocow is not learning where things are
raocow is not putting together how mechanics work
raocow is not putting together how the very world this game takes place in works
raocow is not finding secrets
raocow is not left to ponder the many mysteries this game offers
these are all things that you remember loving about this game, and big chunks of the reason why you remember it so fondly. And there is no "maybe" or "you don't know that" -- I can 5000000% guarantee you that if you didn't get to do all this on your play through, you would not have appreciated the game as much and you would have seen it as a forgettable experience.
raocow's not allowed to do any of these things. He only gets one chance to do that, one first experience, and you all are revoking it before he can even -try-.
so no, as far as I'm concerned as a game designer, raocow is not playing the game.
you're not only doing raocow a disservice for lessening how much he can experience,
you're also doing the game a disservice.
Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Legend of Randorland 3
Posted: 26 Jun 2019, 04:34
by Leet
also yknow when the LPer himself asks people to stop over and over and over, there isn't really room to argue. "but some people might think everything is backseating!" is irrelevant because we're not in that position, we're in the position where the LPer has had to ask people to stop over and over and over.
Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Legend of Randorland 3
Posted: 26 Jun 2019, 04:37
by ano0maly
Mandew wrote: ↑4 years ago
raocow's not allowed to do any of these things. He only gets one chance to do that, one first experience, and you all are revoking it before he can even -try-.
Did you even read my earlier post that you conveniently ignored before? Honestly, I don't appreciate how you're generalizing "you all" like everything that's been said was harmful to the playthrough.
And I'm hiding this part because I'm getting increasingly irritated at this conversation but it's honestly going off-rails:
I don't think the thread has been that bad. Maybe the video comments are worse, but as Ashan said, the thread discussion has kept hand-holding fairly low. I don't think the discussion in this thread is all that unusual compared to some other LP threads, like the ATMM thread.
I've noticed that everytime someone seems to crash the party with this kind of a downer conversation, I find something common: that person has never posted once in the ATMM thread. There was plenty of discussing and sharing thoughts relevant to the games, and yet during the course of almost two years, people were generally fine with it. There was seldom voicing of concerns about people jumping too ahead. Occasionally, yes, as was the case for Superstar Saga thread. Not as an overall pattern.
I honestly invite you to check out discussion in that thread and how people were content with it. If there was a constant problem people would have said something long ago and frequently at that.
Leet wrote: ↑4 years ago
also yknow when the LPer himself asks people to stop over and over and over, there isn't really room to argue. "but some people might think everything is backseating!" is irrelevant because we're not in that position, we're in the position where the LPer has had to ask people to stop over and over and over.
I don't disagree that there's been some problems but we need to pinpoint the source and nature of it instead of overgeneralizing.
Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Legend of Randorland 3
Posted: 26 Jun 2019, 04:42
by Sebby19
So I guess rao should just stop LPing on the internet, and get a real job (and have less time for games).
Your being a little naive Mandew. If raocow, anyone, wants a true blind 1st time game experience, they wouldn't be playing for people on the internet, and risk that exposure.
My mind comes to when Lucahjin LP'd the 1st and 3rd games. The comment section there is pretty chill, and pretty good about not talking about major spoilers. But she does allow vague hints and suggestions, there's a good give and take there. It helps that her comment section is moderated, but that just shows the careful cultivation needed to make an awesome community.
Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Legend of Randorland 3
Mandew wrote: ↑4 years ago
raocow's not allowed to do any of these things. He only gets one chance to do that, one first experience, and you all are revoking it before he can even -try-.
Did you even read my earlier post that you conveniently ignored before? Honestly, I don't appreciate how you're generalizing "you all" like everything that's been said was harmful to the playthrough.
nice sidestepping my point because heaven forbid that other aspects of any given argument get talked about
no, let's just stand on this cliff here and draw a circle around ourselves
nothing else gets in
Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Legend of Randorland 3
Posted: 26 Jun 2019, 04:46
by ano0maly
You know what, let's just talk in PM. The back and forth between us two isn't doing this thread favors.
Or Discord, preferably
Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Legend of Randorland 3
Posted: 26 Jun 2019, 04:47
by Mandew
ano0maly wrote: ↑4 years ago
You know what, let's just talk in PM. The back and forth between us two isn't doing this thread favors.
It's not personal, so no, it's not happening in PM's.
Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Legend of Randorland 3
Posted: 26 Jun 2019, 04:49
by Sebby19
Hmm, looks like you guys are arguing different points (don't ask me what they are). I don't know where you guys are, but is quarter to midnight for me.
Time for some refreshing sleep.
Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Legend of Randorland 3
Posted: 26 Jun 2019, 04:49
by Leet
ano0maly wrote: ↑4 years ago
I don't disagree that there's been some problems but we need to pinpoint the source and nature of it instead of overgeneralizing.
Okay. It's the youtube comments and Sebby. But I think most people know that that's what they're talking about, and your sense that they don't is your own. In the "downer"/"crashing the party" (wtf????) posts you linked to, one of them was explicitly talking about the YT comments, but you still seem to think they were talking about the thread.
Again, you arguing against other people complaining about backseating is irrelevant because the lper is complaining about backseating.
Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Legend of Randorland 3
Posted: 26 Jun 2019, 04:50
by ano0maly
Mandew wrote: ↑4 years ago
It's not personal, so no, it's not happening in PM's.
Like what?
I'm just trying to move to a place where we can have a more direct and calmed down conversation, because things are clearly getting overheated here, and that's how you respond??
You know how uncivil that was?
Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Legend of Randorland 3
Mandew wrote: ↑4 years ago
It's not personal, so no, it's not happening in PM's.
Like what?
I'm just trying to move to a place where we can have a more direct and calmed down conversation, because things are clearly getting overheated here, and that's how you respond??
You know how uncivil that was?
aside from nuances in choice of words, I've responded the exact same way you responded to me previously.
except instead of using the word "conveniently" in an obviously sarcastic way,
I chose to be more direct about it.
your post "appearing civil" ain't fooling anyone.
also stop trying to bring it to DM's.
Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Legend of Randorland 3
Posted: 26 Jun 2019, 05:02
by ano0maly
What is your problem, exactly?
I'm trying to talk to you, and you refuse. All the while there's this fight that shouldn't be on this thread. This isn't even about the original subject matter anymore. Clearly you have some kind of personal vendetta against me all of a sudden and you won't let me explain.
Let me know when you want to speak to me about this. I don't want to derail the LP thread any further.
Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Legend of Randorland 3
Posted: 26 Jun 2019, 05:15
by Mandew
ano0maly wrote: ↑4 years ago
What is your problem, exactly?
Clearly you have some kind of personal vendetta against me all of a sudden and you won't let me explain.
Let me put this in clear terms:
I find your debate/discussion ethics shoddy.
I chose to call them into question.
Pretty sure those debate ethics are on display in this thread.
Pretty sure it's of some public relevance.
Pretty sure it's not personal.
Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Legend of Randorland 3
Posted: 26 Jun 2019, 05:18
by Shard1697
Sebby19 wrote: ↑4 years ago
I know I'm the wrong person be asking, but deep question time:
What happened to the Let's in Let's Play?
LPs have not been about that for at least like. a decade
they are personality driven endeavors where the audience is there to watch, and maybe sometimes give gameplay advice, if asked for. this place is more involved than others but still nothing like what it was when the term was actually new. I cannot remember the last time I saw that sort of thing be a significant part of a let's play. it's not something awful in the early 2000s anymore where everyone's doing a collaborative Oregon Trail playthrough via screenshots in a forum thread. people aren't playing with very small groups of forum goers anymore, raocow is closer to that sort of thing than most but the spirit of "let's play" has not been "let's make joint decisions about a game playthrough as a group together" for ages.
you doing things like telling raocow to spend episodes backtracking to individually dig up every hidden bean on hoohoo mountain and do all the sidequests despite knowing that they are tedious is not only ignoring the kinds of things raocow enjoys, or what makes for good video content, it's trying to direct things to an unreasonable level. which is why you get told off for stuff like this, over and over and over again. I don't know why you keep doing it.
Sebby19 wrote: ↑4 years ago
So I guess rao should just stop LPing on the internet, and get a real job (and have less time for games).
it's not an all or nothing thing. it's, in fact, very easy to not be overbearing about this kind of thing. raocow can indeed have something that is at least close enough to a first time experience despite playing on the internet. people like you(and a few occasional youtube commentors) just need to not feel like you have partial ownership over somebody else's video series.
Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Legend of Randorland 3
Posted: 26 Jun 2019, 05:19
by ano0maly
I gotta say, those viruses are hard to set up to align together in the same color. And they bite quite hard, too.
Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Legend of Randorland 3
I find something common: that person has never posted once in the ATMM thread. There was plenty of discussing and sharing thoughts relevant to the games, and yet during the course of almost two years, people were generally fine with it. There was seldom voicing of concerns about people jumping too ahead.
First, let's get out of the way that this is an awful defense. "People did something that could be considered wrong here and no one complained about it then, so why are people complaining now?" But, whatever. That isn't the intent of your words, just the implication.
And second, let's also ignore the fact that most of those things were when he was playing games he already knew as opposed to this blind experience.
As a person who literally never played a megaman game in their entire life, it did bother me that some people (particularly at the early games) were talking about things before they came up, including a few instances of boos orders/tactics being discussed before the game had even begun. But I figured it was fine because raocow knew the game and because he'd let us know if there was an issue. I figured it was fine because it was before many of these discussions took such a deep hold in this community. And I figured it was fine because no one else was complaining about it and maybe that meant I was alone. I am well aware that I'm overly sensitive to spoilers, and I'm also well aware that I seemed to be the only person reading all of it that didn't already know that stuff because I hadn't played the games. That's why I never posted there.
So...does that mean I can't post here about it? That I couldn't post about it in Hollow Knight, where I'd asked people to let him experience it his way in the OP?
The issue I have (and the issue that I gather most people have) is twofold.
First, people aren't letting raocow experience the game in an organic manner. And that wasn't the case in the ATMM thread.
Second, people are either literally commanding him to do things or they're telling him that he's doing things "wrong." Again, this wasn't the case in the ATMM thread.
To act as though them not having an issue (or otherwise voicing it) in an entirely different thread potentially years ago is even relevant confuses me.
I keep wanting to add something more to this so it isn't "derailing the thread," even though this is a very relevant discussion to both this series and this most recent video. But I don't have much else to say other than I appreciate raocow playing through the game in his own way and doing what he wants.
Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Legend of Randorland 3
Posted: 26 Jun 2019, 05:31
by Shard1697
it's so fucked that people have been posting trying to optimize raocow's stats and bro move usage this whole time and now when he flattens stuff with high stats and bro moves he gets "no, wait, don't have high attack+bro moves now everything's too short"
there's no winning, doing badly means people backseat and doing well means people backseat.
Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Legend of Randorland 3
Will respond in private first before deciding if it's worth bothering to continue this here
Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Legend of Randorland 3
Posted: 26 Jun 2019, 05:43
by Leet
Thanks for letting us know publicly how much you aren't responding publicly
Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Legend of Randorland 3
Posted: 26 Jun 2019, 05:51
by ano0maly
I don't know why talkhaus all of a sudden became so against moving to PM? I want to move to PM not because it's a topic that can't be discussed in public, but because the emotionally heated state of the place right now makes it hard to continue here where points made are getting lost in the fight. I wanted to convey first that I am indeed sorting this out with bbbrrr_it_cold.
But if there's a public discussion to be had about backseating it should be in the right thread at least.
Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Legend of Randorland 3
Posted: 26 Jun 2019, 05:54
by Alice
Sebby19 wrote: ↑4 years agoYour being a little naive Mandew. If raocow, anyone, wants a true blind 1st time game experience, they wouldn't be playing for people on the internet, and risk that exposure.
I think you're kinda forgetting the existence of AUS. Where the Youtube comments got locked for most of the lp because people couldn't quit their bullshit after repeated requests from raocow to quit it.
I honestly don't get what peoples' problem is anyways here. He's had some dumb moments like inexplicably managing to miss something he was actively searching for multiple times while his cursor was highlighting it but when it comes to actually playing the game he seems to be doing perfectly fine to me. I see no issue with him leveling the way he wants because this is fairly obviously not a Valdis Story situation, it's working quite well for him in fact. And him not 100%ing every single area seems totally reasonable to me too. This isn't a Metroidvania or something where completion rate really means anything and it's rarely actually worth it in an RPG to go back through an area just to grab a few missed collectables. Mixing up the buttons in combat is just a raocow thing and despite it still happening fairly frequently is obviously lessening over time as he gets more used to the controls. (And in paltforming it tends to just be more hilarious than anything since there's rarely consequences for it.) Missing things like the diggable spots is understandable since they don't really stand out very much and an lper is going to overlook some things simply from splitting their attention between playing the game and spewing commentary.
Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Legend of Randorland 3
Posted: 26 Jun 2019, 06:47
by Arctangent
frankly what i'm utterly unsurprised to learn from all of this is that sebby's the type of guy to go "well if they didn't want to get locked up for stealing bread, they should've starved to death like any true self-respecting person in their position"
Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Legend of Randorland 3
Posted: 26 Jun 2019, 06:50
by ano0maly
What's with all these generalized remarks that mask the actual valid points that can be found somewhere