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Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga

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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Ninji Saga

Postby AuraLancer » 6 months ago

I was going to recommend raocow take another look at the nut description, but peeps here already outright said what they do. Lame

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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Ninji Saga

Postby MonkeyShrapnel » 6 months ago

ano0maly wrote: Speaking of stats, I wonder what's more preferable between HP and defense.

Obviously if your max health is so low that you regularly go into single digits, you would probably want to raise your HP, but a smart RPG system would reward some investment to defense. Healing items/abilities with fixed health would heal smaller proportions of your health as your health pool grows, but having stronger defense would allow you reduce the percentage of health lost when taking damage, so it works better with those heals.
You can reduce damage to 1 with good defense, so it's usually better to focus on defense, at least in my opinion.

Honestly though, healing items in this game are insanely strong. Ultra Shrooms heal 120 HP in the NA version, which is enough to be a full heal for pretty much the whole game, unless you really grind a lot.
This kinda makes the Max items that do actually fully heal you kinda redundant.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Ninji Saga

Postby Sebby19 » 6 months ago

Yeah, the JP game is a lot more balanced, despite being only released one week later. Which means they were made almost simultaneously.

A comprehensive list of differences can be found here: https://supermariofiles.wordpress.com/2 ... -jp-stats/
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Ninji Saga

Postby ano0maly » 6 months ago

MonkeyShrapnel wrote: Honestly though, healing items in this game are insanely strong. Ultra Shrooms heal 120 HP in the NA version, which is enough to be a full heal for pretty much the whole game, unless you really grind a lot.
This kinda makes the Max items that do actually fully heal you kinda redundant.
So basically hyper potions
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Ninji Saga

Postby FPzero » 6 months ago

raocow you may as well just not read this thread any more because people just won't stop "volunteering" their knowledge about battle strategies, items, character builds, version differences, and more despite your best attempts to simply play through blind for the first time.

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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Ninji Saga

Postby ano0maly » 6 months ago

You clearly have not read the Megaman thread

As long as actual spoilers are tagged as such we shouldn't impede having some healthy discussions.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Ninji Saga

Postby Bean » 6 months ago

If something isn't behind spoiler boxes that is a spoiler, please mark it. We'll either get to it if it is or give it the okay if it isn't one.

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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Ninji Saga

Postby xnamkcor » 6 months ago

Shout out to the composer deciding to straight up make this early game dungeon have the same gravitas as Lufia 2's three towers music.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Ninji Saga

Postby FPzero » 6 months ago

I didn't read the Megaman thread but I heard about how bad it got because people talked about it in the La-Mulana thread. It's just frustrating to me to see so many people going hint-hint nudge-nudge towards this game. It's the first RPG he's playing for the channel, something way outside his usual wheelhouse, and people are treating his stumbles and growing pains as signs that he's not gonna be able to make it through the game, or that he needs tons of help and strategy and hints. And today's video literally started with him talking about how it seems like everyone has so little faith in his ability to play the game.

The game is as close as you can get to baby's first RPG. He'll figure things out. He's only 6 videos in, and in a genre he's brand-new to as far as LPs go. Of course it'll take him some time to get used to it. He doesn't need us trying to hold his hand through everything. I also thought about mentioning the Nut description text, but I figured maybe he saw it in editing or he'll see what it does eventually from using it.

Maybe I'm wildly wrong here, but it's just frustrating me greatly. Have more faith in his ability to play video games.

edit: Saw a mod posted while I was writing this. I don't mean to escalate things with this post; I just wanted to get something off my chest.

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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Ninji Saga

Postby Chirei » 6 months ago

ano0maly wrote: Speaking of stats, I wonder what's more preferable between HP and defense.
Checking a TAS writeup real quick, apparently the damage formula is:

warning: math
AttackConstant x ( (Attacker POW - Target DEF) / 2 )

We will just assume the constant is 1 since there doesn't seem to be known values for enemy attacks.

From this we can just assume that it would actually take 2 DEF to reduce 1 damage because for some reason all damage is being halved at the end. That said, it does mean you need to heal less, so I think at the end they're about even in usefulness(if not, HP is slightly better) and you'd want to balance both.

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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Ninji Saga

Postby ano0maly » 6 months ago

I didn't read the Megaman thread but I heard about how bad it got
I don't know where you heard that, honestly, because that feels misinformed. As far as spoilers go, there were much worse cases than ATMM.

As someone who has been regularly in the ATMM thread for a good amount of time, let me explain what I'm referring to. In the Megaman thread people have been posting bios and basic information on characters, weapons, etc. as they came along in the LP and not months in advance (keeping those spoilered out), and no one batted an eye - for the most part. There were some occasional instances of people raising concerns, but those were individual cases and it didn't seem to be a constant pattern for the entire one and a half years.

I just find it odd that you've been enjoying these discussions as much as anyone else here and suddenly you're dropping the hammer? As long as it's not overly spoilerish out in the open or too much coercing the player, I don't think it's bad to have discussion relevant to the LP and the game. That's why this forum exists, so that we can do more than just watch. And telling raocow to straight up stop reading this thread, honestly, just feels like another form of backseating.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Ninji Saga

Postby Chirei » 6 months ago

Might as well also do this too while i'm on a math kick and it's still too hot to sleep and raocow now has the hammers:

MAYRO AND LOOG: JUMP/HAMMER PROFICIENCIES
People seem to have found the attack constants for their jump and hammer attacks, and they are actually different!

-Mario-
Jump: 0.4778
Hammer*: 0.3175 / 0.4171 / 0.5167

-Luigi-
Jump: 0.3984
Hammer*: 0.3175 / 0.4373 / 0.5571

*There is apparently RNG involved when you time the hammer correctly. It will just randomly use one of these three constants no matter what. These are NOT values for a failed input.

If the bros have 100 POW against an enemy with 20 DEF, this is what it would look like using the damage formula above:

Mario jumps on enemy: 20 (rounded up from 19.112)
Mario hits enemy with hammer: 13 / 17 / 21
Average hammer damage (to mitigate RNG interference): 17

Luigi jumps on enemy: 16 (rounded up from 15.936)
Luigi hits enemy with hammer: 13 / 18 / 23
Average hammer damage (to mitigate RNG interference): 18

In extremely simplified terms, this means:
Mario is about 20~25% better with jumps than Luigi is.
Luigi is about 5~10% better with hammers than Mario is.

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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Ninji Saga

Postby Arctangent » 6 months ago

Chirei wrote: MAYRO AND LOOG: JUMP/HAMMER PROFICIENCIES
now that's quite a few bizarre decisions

like okay mario being a heavier hitter with jumps can make sense because despite luigi consistently jumping higher when there's gameplay differences between them, mario also consistently has higher gravity so of course he'd land on stuff with more force

but luigi having more damage with hammer just feels like it's there because, well, if mario's got a specialty, luigi has to specialize in the other option, huh? i guess the hammer has slightly more distance to fall when luigi uses it but c'mon

the fact that hammers have rng when other attacks don't is also just ??? plus the general fact that the damage formula is so unintuitive feels really unfitting for this game

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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Ninji Saga

Postby Sebby19 » 6 months ago

Guys slow down, we haven't even seen the hammers in battle yet.


Also where did you find those #s, they are different than the ones I found.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Ninji Saga

Postby Implo » 6 months ago

So, this is the first instance of showing that Cackletta is a woman. This one word - "her" that I overlooked. When I played this game the first time, I was always referring to Cackletta as a guy. Cackletta's appearance looks for me like a wizard, not a witch. Also in dialogs she's more mentioned as "Cackletta this" or Cackletta that" instead of "she did this" or "she did that". Many years later I found out in DT 3 that Cackletta is a she and it was huge shock for me.

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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Ninji Saga

Postby BobisOnlyBob » 6 months ago

Implo wrote: So, this is the first instance of showing that Cackletta is a woman. This one word - "her" that I overlooked. When I played this game the first time, I was always referring to Cackletta as a guy. Cackletta's appearance looks for me like a wizard, not a witch. Also in dialogs she's more mentioned as "Cackletta this" or Cackletta that" instead of "she did this" or "she did that". Many years later I found out in DT 3 that Cackletta is a she and it was huge shock for me.
"-etta" is a pretty standard feminine suffix for Italian names, and as a result a fair number of English and other European names too! I just looked it up though and it seems like that tradition massively tapered off in the US and UK in the 90s/early 2000s, so I guess it seems a little quaint and antiquated now.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Ninji Saga

Postby KobaBeach » 6 months ago

FPzero wrote: The game is as close as you can get to baby's first RPG.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Ninji Saga

Postby Chirei » 6 months ago

Arctangent wrote: stuff

I guess with luigi having higher defense stats, someone over there played too much d&d and wanted paladin luigi the dream to be real since they use hammers


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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Ninji Saga

Postby Ashan » 6 months ago

Implo wrote: Cackletta's appearance looks for me like a wizard, not a witch.
That NYEHEHEHEHE cackle didn't tip you off?
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Ninji Saga

Postby Grounder » 6 months ago

It's gonna be all too easy to tell that Cackletta is a woman in the back half of the game.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Ninji Saga

Postby RedMageSusie » 6 months ago

Always go all pow all the time. Who needs defence when you murder everything?
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Ninji Saga

Postby Implo » 6 months ago

Ashan wrote: That NYEHEHEHEHE cackle didn't tip you off?
Nope. I assumed this is old wizard's laugh. Then again when I played SMW for many years I thought that Kamek is also a wizard, not a witch. And I also go surprised by information that he's a she. It also appears sometimes in the real life: I meet a guy, he speaks and I figure out it's actually a woman. Or completely opposite situation when guys looks exactly like a woman. It's actually visible when you read japanese mangas. Unfortunately in old games there is no voice acting to help me figure these things out.

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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Ninji Saga

Postby ano0maly » 6 months ago

Kamek is he
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Ninji Saga

Postby Rockythechao » 6 months ago

Kamek is male but there are female magikoopas that fill his role in other Mario titles -- Kammy, Kamella, and I think one more?

aiui all magikoopas are called Kameks in Japanese, like a reverse Koopa -> Bowser situation, so any localization inconsistencies over the years may have contributed to the confusion.

Edit: yeah, kamekku is the original generic enemy name, and aside from Kammy and Kamella there's other magikoopas localized with some variation of the name Kamek who are separate characters from Bowser's right-hand wizard AND he has appearances where he goes unnamed or gets the Yoshi treatment and is just named Magikoopa.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - The Ninji Saga

Postby KobaBeach » 6 months ago

Implo wrote:
Ashan wrote: That NYEHEHEHEHE cackle didn't tip you off?
Nope. I assumed this is old wizard's laugh. Then again when I played SMW for many years I thought that Kamek is also a wizard, not a witch. And I also go surprised by information that he's a she. It also appears sometimes in the real life: I meet a guy, he speaks and I figure out it's actually a woman. Or completely opposite situation when guys looks exactly like a woman. It's actually visible when you read japanese mangas. Unfortunately in old games there is no voice acting to help me figure these things out.
actually the gender spectrum is much more complex than that and people are starting to experiment with presentation and non-binary gender identities more often these days and generally being more open with being genderqueer, so don't really expect to rely on "boobs = woman, penis = man". that sort of thinking is pretty outdated.

also kamek and most magikoopas are men, kammy and kamella are women
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