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Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga

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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - SM64: Last Impact

Postby Leet » 5 months ago

I think some of yall argue with a square peg round hole. Using arguments you've heard elsewhere about accessibility to put into the slot of ashan's criticism even though it doesn't exactly fit
Enjl wrote: "A good time" is the experience devs want people to have.
I mean, this is well and good for this game but if we get into like literary game design, this isn't true. Of course nobody wants to hear that because it's pretty off-topic but I would be remiss to let regressive rhetoric be entirely ignored.
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - SM64: Last Impact

Postby thatguyif » 5 months ago

Zummorr wrote:
thatguyif wrote: "I don't want to slight him."
~But~
thatguyif wrote: "His struggles are probably a reflection of an inability to truly be able to learn from from his mistakes and be a better player."
Oof!
What makes you think I was slighting him? I was attacking the game, not him. The game refused to let him learn from his mistakes on his own terms. By "inability" I meant "the game refused to let him." Where did you get this idea?

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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - SM64: Last Impact

Postby thatguyif » 5 months ago

Leet wrote: I think some of yall argue with a square peg round hole. Using arguments you've heard elsewhere about accessibility to put into the slot of ashan's criticism even though it doesn't exactly fit
My argument was that ashan was making shit up and trying to denigrate a remake on those lies and some weird-ass belief about Nintendo babying people.

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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga

Postby Mandew » 5 months ago

I think Enjl's statement is 100% true, just that the "you" is variable. In the case of a Mario game, the "you" is usually a very broad, all-inclusive "you" -- or at least, that's what they try to go for. Platformers, RPGs and whatnot all come with their inherent deal of an initial learning curve. Even the developers for the main series Mario games have been struggling on coming up with elegant solutions to ease the learning curve aspect, and I think they didn't truly succeed until Super Mario Odyssey where its Assist Mode is just plainly visible on the pause menu at all times. And I mean, it's a simple change -- more health, something to point to main objectives, and lethal hazards just hurting you instead. It doesn't beat the game for them; everything else still behaves the same, they're just forgiven for more mistakes and prevented from being lost. And I think it's very simple and elegant.

With an RPG like Mario & Luigi, of course it's not so simple. The "pause menu" is an inventory screen where a few things would always fight for your attention. I think it makes sense to basically have the option come up when it's relevant; i.e. when players are having trouble.

... is what I would say if the recent M&L games were actually well-designed, player-conscious experiences. "Difficulty" in these games isn't really "difficulty", it literally comes down to everything being bloated to milk every last little second of playtime they can get out of each player in order to dodge the "game is too short" complaint. That includes "optional" stuff not actually feeling so optional. I don't think these games are even designed to provide a good time; if that were the case, it's not done very competently. They're just designed to keep 'em playing until they're done with the game, and to last as long as possible given a limited amount of contents. Repeat battles. Enemy health pools being sponges. Little half-second animations that play thousands of times in the course of the game. Giant Luigi Fights/Papercraft Fights that take way too long. And of course, Special Attack animations -- each taking at least half a minute and being almost required to use in order to get anywhere. These are all things the recent games leveraged to that end. That and just mildly amusing setpieces or the promise of things getting good at some point. In that sense, yeah, an Easy Mode does help that purpose along, specifically for players who "might get frustrated and quit" by just easing -some- of the problems that compound into the tedious grind that those games are.

In my opinion, something like the GBA version of Superstar Saga makes for the best M&L experience (didn't play the remake); the game isn't too demanding to begin with, and every advantage that a learning player can leverage are exactly that, advantages. All that makes for an "Easy Mode" that's pretty much built-in the game's core mechanics and progression curve, and rewards players who make up for lack in their skills with cleverness or thoroughness.

Actually I think the mini-games could have used some toning down in places -- I don't know if that's something the remake addresses or not -- and just having less confusing overworld controls would have been a plus -- something I know the remake -does- address.
Last edited by Mandew on 16 Jul 2019, 03:36, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga

Postby Ashan » 5 months ago

I don't think you should start off the game asking the player to make decisions regarding settings they know nothing about. ESPECIALLY regarding something as odd as "do you want assist mode reminders?" It's so non-essential to the overall game to be literally the first thing seen when you start the game. My big thing with all of this is if the game has handicaps offered, whatever (if anything I'd rather that be implemented as a cheats menu like games used to do, so you actually have to go out of your way to do it). But the game shouldn't be going out of its way to encourage use of them. Have SOME faith that your player can overcome a challenge.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Trio Finale

Postby Awoo » 5 months ago

Ashan wrote: I don't think you should start off the game asking the player to make decisions regarding settings they know nothing about. ESPECIALLY regarding something as odd as "do you want assist mode reminders?" It's so non-essential to the overall game to be literally the first thing seen when you start the game. My big thing with all of this is if the game has handicaps offered, whatever (if anything I'd rather that be implemented as a cheats menu like games used to do, so you actually have to go out of your way to do it). But the game shouldn't be going out of its way to encourage use of them. Have SOME faith that your player can overcome a challenge.
My best guess as to why they implemented it this way was to appeal to as broad and young an audience as they could. This game seems like it's an excellent "first-RPG" game, since nothing seems like it's necessarily too rough and is quite friendly

it's quite a shame not seeing any more new episodes of this again, since this is an LP I enjoyed very much

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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga

Postby Sebby19 » 5 months ago

My favorite M&L game is Dream Team. Maybe I'm a little biased since it was the 2nd game in the series I played (First is the GBA, I skipped the DS ones initially). It just seems like a celebraion of everything M&L was, up to that point, bringing back characters and referencing the last 3 games. It also has my favorite set of Bros. Attacks. It is pretty tutorial heavy, but I was never one to get triggered by that.
There is a demo available on the 3DS, if anyone wants to try it.


As for the eventual 6th game, any predictions guys? It will have to be on the Switch, which means back to single-screen gameplay. That'll be interesting, after 4 games of that. I predict the 6th game will ditch the spritework, and everyting will be 3D models.

As for what I want in game 6, I want Mario, Luigi, Wario, and Waluigi to make a playable quartet. And since this will be on the Switch, I want some form of co-op where each player controls a specific Bro.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga

Postby Rockythechao » 5 months ago

Ashan wrote: I don't think you should start off the game asking the player to make decisions regarding settings they know nothing about. ESPECIALLY regarding something as odd as "do you want assist mode reminders?" It's so non-essential to the overall game to be literally the first thing seen when you start the game. My big thing with all of this is if the game has handicaps offered, whatever (if anything I'd rather that be implemented as a cheats menu like games used to do, so you actually have to go out of your way to do it). But the game shouldn't be going out of its way to encourage use of them. Have SOME faith that your player can overcome a challenge.
Okay, so I'm realizing we're generally in agreement and I just haven't been articulating myself or presenting my arguments well.

The reminder toggling was a bad example for trying to convey the point of "I think games should communicate what they actually affect better", and putting so much emphasis specifically on the disability aspect did muddy things further. Most importantly, I didn't rewatch the GMTK video I posted on Celeste's Assist Mode all the way through, which I really should have done because that video sums up the points I was trying to make and that game already has a far more elegant approach than the ones I was proposing, as Enjl pointed out.

My focus in all of this was trying to find a good compromise that maintains the awareness of the accessibility options without any chance of it getting annoying or coming across as judgmental in either way -- not pressuring the player to use them but also not discouraging or condescending players for using them, just making sure they're sufficiently informed that the options exist and can be changed at any time. To that extent I specifically proposed not throwing the menu in the player's face first thing but instead asking them once if they want to see it, with an added note that they can still be accessed during the game as a reassurance that "hey, you don't need to mess with these just yet, you can get a feel for the game first and choose to come back to this later if you want."

But with Celeste, toggling the Assist Mode settings is integrated as an option in the post-file selection menu, so players can't miss it but also the game doesn't poke the player about it even a single time, and once enabled the actual settings are accessed from the pause menu like classic cheat menus.

So yeah, TL;DR: watch the Celeste GMTK video. For convenience here's the video again with a timestamp to jump straight to the important stuff. I recommend watching the whole thing from the start because I think you'll find it fairly agreeable overall, but watching from the timestamp to around the 12-minute mark will give you the gist of what I've been trying to get at.
Last edited by Rockythechao on 16 Jul 2019, 16:30, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - SM64: Last Impact

Postby Zummorr » 5 months ago

thatguyif wrote:
What makes you think I was slighting him? I was attacking the game, not him. The game refused to let him learn from his mistakes on his own terms. By "inability" I meant "the game refused to let him." Where did you get this idea?
Lets see.
thatguyif wrote: "I would be even so bold to say that not only would raocow have gotten a better experience from Superstar Saga out of playing the remake, but he would've had the LP that many of us wanted him to have if he did. He was definitely feeling things out in the original, and HIS struggles are probably a reflection of an inability to truly be able to learn from HIS mistakes and be a better player."
You do spend a majority of the time claiming the remake is better, that it is less clunky and better explains itself, it probably is, I wouldn't know, I haven't played the remake.

I'm fine you slighting him btw. I thought it was just kinda funny that you claimed your acknowledgments weren't to slight to him, while saying that he had an inability to learn from HIS mistakes. And yeah, I did misunderstand you, and bolded the reasons why. In that paragraph you put the emphasis on him, not the game.

Does that really seem that weird of an idea? I mean even raocow himself asked "Why am I so bad?!" in the semi-final episode as Wendy dunked him. At the same time, there also Valdis Story/MMZs, both great examples of raocow's learning strategies.

To me, it doesn't make much sense that the game would "refuse to let him learn from his mistakes", considering that he engineered himself to trivialize his battle gameplay.
He chose to to use game breaking strategies, he never felt pressured to learn enemy tells. He chose to not practice bro's moves in already trivialized random encounters.
And all that's fine, it was his playthrough, he beat the game.

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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga

Postby Arctangent » 5 months ago

Ashan wrote: But the game shouldn't be going out of its way to encourage use of them.
do you actually have a reason for this beyond having an ego that could be bruised by the mere existence of matter, or is it entirely "games shouldn't incentivize the use of mechanics i don't like even if they're useful for other people"

i mean do you not realize how baffling a concept it is to go about implementing a game mechanic but not encourage a player to use it if it suits their fancy? that's basically going back to the whole practice of mocking player for certain basic things, which raises the whole question of why you'd put those things in the game in the first place if you have such a huge disdain for anyone who'd use 'em

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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga

Postby Sebby19 » 5 months ago

I would like to point out that when raocow finds a 'winning' strategy, he tends to stick with it, and not experiment anymore.

The one exception to this was Rabi Ribi, where he used ALL his available abilities, eventually. That was kind of a miracle, really.


Does anyone have predictions/wants for the next M&L game?
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga

Postby Ashan » 5 months ago

Arctangent wrote:
Ashan wrote: But the game shouldn't be going out of its way to encourage use of them.
do you actually have a reason for this beyond having an ego that could be bruised by the mere existence of matter, or is it entirely "games shouldn't incentivize the use of mechanics i don't like even if they're useful for other people"

i mean do you not realize how baffling a concept it is to go about implementing a game mechanic but not encourage a player to use it if it suits their fancy? that's basically going back to the whole practice of mocking player for certain basic things, which raises the whole question of why you'd put those things in the game in the first place if you have such a huge disdain for anyone who'd use 'em
I expect the developers to know better than the players when it comes to the best play experience for their game. Players might think they're gonna get a better experience with an empty win, but the devs should know better, so they should try to encourage you to learn the game rather than accept "I died therefore I am bad and need a handicap."
If these handicaps existed when I was a kid playing games, there's a good chance I would have used them and ended up not learning about how much fun and accomplishment is to be had from overcoming a challenge, and in the end been turned off of games entirely because they're just distractions where you turn your brain off rather than something engaging.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga

Postby Alice » 5 months ago

Ashan wrote: If these handicaps existed when I was a kid playing games, there's a good chance I would have used them and ended up not learning about how much fun and accomplishment is to be had from overcoming a challenge, and in the end been turned off of games entirely because they're just distractions where you turn your brain off rather than something engaging.
And that's your personal experience. My personal experience is basically the opposite. Take Doom for example. It was one of my most played games as a kid. Much of that time I spent playing using the cheats the game provides. But that didn't stop me from actually improving. By the time I largely stopped cheating at the game, I was able to beat it on the highest difficulty. But if I'd just died over and over and over and over and over and over then I'd have simply completely lost interest in the game altogether rather than actually trying to improve.

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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga

Postby Ivy » 5 months ago

Yeah, it's really not so far-fetched to both cheat/use lower difficult and also improve over time. Additionally, not every human shares the same craving for challenge in the first place. Sometimes a comfortable and adjustable difficulty curve is just what one needs.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga

Postby Ashan » 5 months ago

Once again, I never said the game shouldn't have cheats built-in, I said it shouldn't be encouraging the use of them or acting like cheating is the intended way to play the game. You wanted to use them and you were able to find them without the game stopping when you died to say "wanna play with cheats?" which proves my point that they game doesn't need to do that.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga

Postby ano0maly » 5 months ago

Long story short, I think Ashan might feel better about the way the remake presented the easy mode option in game over screen if it instead said something like "Change Difficulty - Current: Normal". Which is what DT3 does.

If that's still too intrusive I will have to disagree there.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga

Postby Leet » 5 months ago

I definitely played a lot of smw hacks where I just savescummed through them without thinking and remember almost nothing from them whatsoever. I do consider this my own failing as a dumb child and not a problem with the existence of savestates itself, but... the idea of inadvertently destructing the game flow is real. It honestly has nothing to do with "challenge", it's just that games are holistic works of design.

Re: I don't think anyone here actually disagrees, but some people really want to repeat things they read elsewhere to Ashan to fit the conversation into one they've seen before
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga

Postby Ometeotl » 5 months ago

Ashan wrote: Once again, I never said the game shouldn't have cheats built-in, I said it shouldn't be encouraging the use of them or acting like cheating is the intended way to play the game. You wanted to use them and you were able to find them without the game stopping when you died to say "wanna play with cheats?" which proves my point that they game doesn't need to do that.
You keep calling it cheating instead of what it is, just an easier difficulty setting. This isn't a super guide or a free invincibility star here (I don't really have anything against those mechanics as an option either honestly), it's entirely just shaving some stats off of the bosses. I've never played the remake so maybe it also eases up the timing on things like defense but even so, calling it cheating is not accurate or necessary.

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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga

Postby Leet » 5 months ago

He was responding to other people that used that term (in the context of literal cheats in doom) and was not using that word in a general sense before that point at all. So no, he does not "keep" calling them that whatsoever, and you don't read threads

Re: re: re: nobody actually disagrees in this thread oh my god
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - SM64: Last Impact

Postby KobaBeach » 5 months ago

Sebby19 wrote: If I was ever a lead game designer, I would put in a quick questionnaire at game start asking for the player's opinions on tutorials, hints, guidance, cutscenes, lives, ect. Then those answers would affect the game going forward.
If I'm not mistaken, SaGa Scarlet Grace does this in place of a character select which I think acts more like a difficulty select with slightly different stat gains, available party members and new prologue, a la Romancing SaGa 1&3 mixed with SaGa Frontier 1.

As a result, Scarlet Grace is surprisingly beginner friendly for a SaGa game, but it also is basically more of an adventure game with RPG battles thrown into the mix due to a lack of locations and dungeons, merely overworld travel and quests.

A bit of the opposite of Unlimited Saga, which was a linear game where you hopped from location to location and was a nightmare to play due to most things relying on RNG in an attempt to mimic tabletop.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga

Postby Ashan » 5 months ago

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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - SM64: Last Impact

Postby NastCF » 5 months ago

Leet wrote: He was responding to other people that used that term (in the context of literal cheats in doom) and was not using that word in a general sense before that point at all. So no, he does not "keep" calling them that whatsoever, and you don't read threads
Not entirely true. This was the first mention of the term:
Ashan wrote: People just trying to play the game normally don't need to be repeatedly encouraged to cheat whenever they screw up. That's all I'm saying.
I can understand where Ashan is coming from to an extent because I understand that games are designed very meticulously to craft an intended experience - sure, you can boil "intended experience" down to the player simply having fun with the game in question, but I think it's fair to say that developers put work into carefully designing systems, levels and stuff like that because they want to trigger specific responses in the player (tension, a power-fantasy, etc.), so by their nature these assist systems can act in direct opposition to that careful design IF they are not implemented well.

What I can't understand is this notion that these systems are not only potentially unfaithful to the game's intended design, but also inherently offensive and patronizing to a player that is NOT interested in using them, because while I'm certainly not interested in using these sort of options myself, like, ever, I'd like to think that I'm more mature than to let the mere suggestion of it get to me, especially when it's something as innocuous as an option on a retry menu. There's also been the implication here that those who WOULD choose to use these options (likely younger players or those with physical impairments) are inherently less "valid" as players because, in Ashan's own words, said options are nothing more than "cheating".

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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga

Postby Ashan » 5 months ago

I'd you're playing in normal and you drop down to easy, that is inherently a cheat from the context of normal mode. I don't know how it could not be seen as that.

Using the Konami code in Contra to get 30 lives could be seen as an "easy mode" but it's also a cheat. A game has a set of rules, and a cheat is just modifying those rules to make them easier.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga

Postby Sebby19 » 5 months ago

@Koba: I had the Pokemon Mystery Dungeon questionarres in mind when I came up with that idea.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga

Postby Arctangent » 5 months ago

Ashan wrote: I'd you're playing in normal and you drop down to easy, that is inherently a cheat from the context of normal mode. I don't know how it could not be seen as that.

Using the Konami code in Contra to get 30 lives could be seen as an "easy mode" but it's also a cheat. A game has a set of rules, and a cheat is just modifying those rules to make them easier.
did you like

put your brain in the microwave and leave it there within the past couple minutes or something

like you started this entire thing complaining about an easy mode option being on the game over menu. which is to say, you were complaining about the easy mode being accessible, as part of the standard game rules, from the game over menu. which is to say, you were complaining about the developers intentionally designing the game's rules as to allow the player to access easy mode from the game over menu

did you hypnotize yourself into thinking that you hacked that menu in or something and the cognitive dissonance made you think it was nintendo's fault or, like, what


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