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Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga

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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - SM64: Last Impact

Post by Piesonscreations »

This has been an interesting LP! I wasn't super on board with the Mike Tyson approach raocow took, but it was amusing to see nonetheless. I think one of the main issues here were the expectations people had, and the way raocow communicated his frustrations, not so much with people, but in his commentary with the game.

Like, how when he gets frustrated he says something akin to "agh, stupid game" that, when playing his regular Marios, can be understood as having grievances with very well understood systems, but when it came to something he was thoroughly unfamiliar with, at least to me, came off as blaming the game for his performance, but I do understand this is just how he communicates frustration, and not an actual remark on the faults of the game.

That's not to say the game is without it's faults, but that's another thing altogether. I do agree on sentiment with what sebby said about going all POW not being the best for a first run of the game, not because it doesn't work, but more so because it almost makes it work like a gimmick run, like going all speed, or using no items, etc. Just so happens that in this game that was a viable strategy, but as was showcased, a strategy that wasn't completely in sync with the systems the game expects you to interact with. Still, it was noticeable that raocow improved a lot throughout the whole LP, perhaps not to the point the game or most people expected, but it sufficed, and hey, isn't that all that's needed?

Good job with the LP raocow. Good luck with any RPGs you decide to do in the future!
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - SM64: Last Impact

Post by Arctangent »

Ashan wrote: 4 years ago Why can't they just let you opt-in to easy mode when you create your file
"Why can't they just force you to play through the entire game again if it turns out that a part of the game is too frustrating for you? That is clearly far less work than me having to press an extra button that severely damages my ego for no good reason!"

yeah uh there's a reason why more and more, difficulty levels are adjustable during play
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - SM64: Last Impact

Post by Alice »

Ashan wrote: 4 years agoWell of course it's not LITERALLY telling you "you're bad at the game" but the offering itself is inherently condescending and saying "I don't think you're good enough at the game, why don't we make it easier for you?"
Why can't they just let you opt-in to easy mode when you create your file instead of bugging people who are just trying to play the game normally? In Mario Maker 2, Luigi starts offering you handicaps if you die only twice. And if you game over it'll offer to literally do the level for you. It's insulting and makes a deaths I wouldn't find at all aggravating, 100% aggravating.
Literally playing the level for you is dumb but offering you the choice to lower the difficulty isn't condescending, it's logical. They want people to engage with the game as much as possible. If they're finding it too difficult then they're more likely to simply quit playing rather than muddle through. I can't tell you how many times I've underestimated the difficulty I chose on a game only to end up quitting the game because I'm several hours in and don't feel like replaying it all on an easier difficulty.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - SM64: Last Impact

Post by Leet »

This is a stupid false dichotomy because you can just put all this stuff in an options menu. turn handholding on/off. switch difficulty. etc.

I was really looking forward to cackletta spinning her arms at the beginning of the fight... raocow got really lucky with her move choices

Btw the remake sucks (and "actually, the original is Not charming" is just "NO U")
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - SM64: Last Impact

Post by Blivsey »

Leet wrote: This is a stupid false dichotomy because you can just put all this stuff in an options menu. turn handholding on/off. switch difficulty. etc.

I was really looking forward to cackletta spinning her arms at the beginning of the fight... raocow got really lucky with her move choices

Btw the remake sucks (and "actually, the original is Not charming" is just "NO U")
I happen to love the remake, and while I have strong nostalgia for the original and think it did several things better, I also think the remake is a solid version of the game in its own right.

Also, Easy Mode is in the options menu. It's actually the ONLY thing in the options menu, for some reason.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - SM64: Last Impact

Post by Ashan »

Why is it so hard to fathom the idea that it's annoying to have the game offer to lower the difficulty whenever you die? You can apply all the "logic" you want to it, but imagine you're playing a game with a friend who knows everything about the game, and every time you die they say "this part is probably too hard for your abilities, maybe you should lower the difficulty or just give me the controller and let me do it for you." It would give you an overall worse play experience. This is the same thing except built into the game so you can't tell it to get lost like you could your friend.

Also recall we're talking about Nintendo games which children have been completing without issue for a good 35 years, including everyone on this forum. I'm not particularly good at video games and I was able to play through Superstar Saga when I was like 6 without internet access. It's not like 6 year olds have gotten stupid in the past couple decades, but their video games have zero faith in them and think they're complete idiots.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - SM64: Last Impact

Post by Nast »

For the record, this is the screen in question.

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I don't really see how this is insulting your abilities and intelligence, pressuring you into lowering the difficulty? It's an innocuous menu option that's easily ignorable. Like, I get where you're coming from, there are games out there that do a similar thing but are pretty intrusive about it, but in this case you're making a mountain out of a molehill.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - SM64: Last Impact

Post by Rixithechao »

Ashan wrote: Why is it so hard to fathom the idea that it's annoying to have the game offer to lower the difficulty whenever you die? You can apply all the "logic" you want to it, but imagine you're playing a game with a friend who knows everything about the game, and every time you die they say "this part is probably too hard for your abilities, maybe you should lower the difficulty or just give me the controller and let me do it for you." It would give you an overall worse play experience. This is the same thing except built into the game so you can't tell it to get lost like you could your friend.
Yes, accessibility options can feel condescending depending on how they're implemented. Like, that Luigi popup does admittedly get frustrating at times. But the benefit for the players that do need these features -- and if the gameplay has action elements, there are going to be players that need them due to things like motor impairment -- far outweighs those of us without physical disabilities getting a bit salty over them due to our fragile pride. And there's no reason to get rid of those kinds of prompts entirely when, as Leet said, devs could just give players a means of toggling them at a whim. Don't hate the feature, hate the implementation.
Also recall we're talking about Nintendo games which children have been completing without issue for a good 35 years, including everyone on this forum. I'm not particularly good at video games and I was able to play through Superstar Saga when I was like 6 without internet access. It's not like 6 year olds have gotten stupid in the past couple decades, but their video games have zero faith in them and think they're complete idiots.
Maybe it's not your intent to argue that they shouldn't exist at all, but this comes across as saying that just because people who are able to do things like precision timing or button-mashing haven't had an issue for those 35 years, devs shouldn't bother trying to help people who can't do those things enjoy their games. Even disabilities aside, people play games in different ways for different reasons. Beating a game without any accommodations may be a matter of pride for you or a necessary standard for serious competitive play, but as long as there's no rankings involved, holding other people to arbitrary conditions like that is just unnecessary gatekeeping.

Like, who cares if some rando out there plays a single-player video game on easy mode? It doesn't magically erase your own accomplishments by beating it on normal or hard or whatever.
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Re: Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga

Post by ano0maly »

Mata Hari wrote: 4 years ago Impressive start end to the thread. Really surpassed yourself chaps
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - SM64: Last Impact

Post by Ashan »

People who need accessibility options can go into the menu and opt-in to them, the game doesn't need to check every time I died that it wasn't because I developed cerebral palsy in the last 5 minutes
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - SM64: Last Impact

Post by Mandew »

when I'm reading this conversation, Super Mario Maker 2 comes to mind.

"Shut up, Luigi!"

it's not even easy mode, it just gives you more tools to help out, but I kinda wish the game silently added them after 3 deaths and Luigi would only show up after maybe 5.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - SM64: Last Impact

Post by Rixithechao »

Hm... if they're made opt-in rather than opt-out, the game should at least notify the player that they exist.
Maybe a good way to handle it would be some kind of prompt at the beginning of the game, like
Would you like to view the accessibility options? (These can be configured at any time from the Settings menu.)
[Yes] [No]
That way players that need them can configure them right away, players that don't can tone them down or disable them before they have a chance to become an nagging annoyance, and players that don't want to get bogged down in a menu can just jump straight into the game with the knowledge that they can always be changed later.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - SM64: Last Impact

Post by Mata Hari »

Mandew wrote: 4 years ago when I'm reading this conversation, Super Mario Maker 2 comes to mind.

"Shut up, Luigi!"
Oh shit yeah, Luigi's a bitch
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - SM64: Last Impact

Post by Blivsey »



Also I can't really debate people who feel so viciously patronized by an option in a menu they can safely button-mash past anyway so I'll spare myself.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - SM64: Last Impact

Post by Kleetus »

While I think Cackletta's Soul looks kinda meh just being a purple cloud thing, wow I will not say the same for her attacks. The time stop lasers take the cake for the coolest attacks in the game. I like the look of Wendy's energy rings as well.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - SM64: Last Impact

Post by WhimWidget »

You know you're a good big bad when even your insides look like a climactic final battle arena.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - SM64: Last Impact

Post by Super Llama »

NastCF wrote: 4 years ago For the record, this is the screen in question.

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I don't really see how this is insulting your abilities and intelligence, pressuring you into lowering the difficulty? It's an innocuous menu option that's easily ignorable. Like, I get where you're coming from, there are games out there that do a similar thing but are pretty intrusive about it, but in this case you're making a mountain out of a molehill.
This is honestly the most preferable outcome, as opposed to something like 3rd Strike or RE4, which just go behind your back and make the game easier without even telling you and you have no say in the matter other than not sucking in the first place.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - SM64: Last Impact

Post by Sebby19 »

If I was ever a lead game designer, I would put in a quick questionnaire at game start asking for the player's opinions on tutorials, hints, guidance, cutscenes, lives, ect. Then those answers would affect the game going forward.

If raocow ever play's anymore M&L game, I wonder how tricky it would be to record for him. There is figuring out a new emulator, and how to display 2 screens (which he'll have to anyway, for Sonic). And then I don't believe there are any (good?) 3DS emulators, rao would a capture card/device for his 3DS (make me wonder about Sonic too).
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - SM64: Last Impact

Post by Ashan »

There's something to be said for taking a hard stance with design. Leaving too many options tends to make users unsatisfied. And generally when I play a game I just want to play it the way the developers intended. Not to mention, more configurations just means more testing.

There really isn't a need for these overly complicated methods of getting players into easy mode. If the game has difficutly options (which not every game needs), just have it as a selection on the file creation screen, and maybe in the settings so it can be toggled on the fly if it works for the game. People just trying to play the game normally don't need to be repeatedly encouraged to cheat whenever they screw up. That's all I'm saying.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - SM64: Last Impact

Post by tangy »

Sebby19 wrote: 4 years ago figuring out a new emulator, and how to display 2 screens
I believe you forgot about this entire LP

essentially: raocow knows what he's doing
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - SM64: Last Impact

Post by SAJewers »

Sebby19 wrote: 4 years agoAnd then I don't believe there are any (good?) 3DS emulators, rao would a capture card/device for his 3DS (make me wonder about Sonic too).
https://citra-emu.org/game/
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - SM64: Last Impact

Post by Sebby19 »

tangy wrote: 4 years ago
Sebby19 wrote: 4 years ago figuring out a new emulator, and how to display 2 screens
I believe you forgot about this entire LP

essentially: raocow knows what he's doing
Oh..., I'm ashamed to say I stopped watching All the Megamen at MM5. Not on purpose, but the backlog got too big.
There is still the 3DS quesion, but there is a least a year before that needs to get addressed.

EDIT: Saw SaJewers post. Hmm, rao would be at a disadvantage for games that use the 3D, but what can you do.
Now that I think about, can raocow even use the 3D, due to his glasses? Or if he can, does he not use it?
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - SM64: Last Impact

Post by Rixithechao »

Ashan wrote: 4 years ago There's something to be said for taking a hard stance with design. Leaving too many options tends to make users unsatisfied. And generally when I play a game I just want to play it the way the developers intended. Not to mention, more configurations just means more testing.

There really isn't a need for these overly complicated methods of getting players into easy mode. If the game has difficutly options (which not every game needs), just have it as a selection on the file creation screen, and maybe in the settings so it can be toggled on the fly if it works for the game. People just trying to play the game normally don't need to be repeatedly encouraged to cheat whenever they screw up. That's all I'm saying.
...How is "hey, before you start the game, do you want to look at these features you might not need and can turn off?" overly complicated? Too many options makes users unsatisfied? What???
The amount of testing required does depend on the actual settings being configured, the developer resources, and other development circumstances, but chances are if the accessibility features are implemented well they shouldn't be anywhere near enough extra work to justify excluding players by leaving them out. And as for "on the file selection screen",
Arctangent wrote:
Ashan wrote: 4 years ago Why can't they just let you opt-in to easy mode when you create your file
"Why can't they just force you to play through the entire game again if it turns out that a part of the game is too frustrating for you? That is clearly far less work than me having to press an extra button that severely damages my ego for no good reason!"
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - SM64: Last Impact

Post by Emral »

If I am a newcomer to a game, I might not know that I might need assistance. If I'm a returning player, I won't need lower difficulty settings. Start-of-save-file is probably the worst time to ask the player about cryptic difficulty settings in the game. Fine-tuning difficulty with several settings (celeste's assist mode is a great example) during gameplay in a save file is much more effective at helping people out when they need it with what they need.
If you're concerned about "intended experience", consider that devs are more concerned with the idea that you actually get to experience the game in its entirety and have fun while doing so, rather than the exact experience values and frequency of enemies (evident by things like adaptive difficulty settings in some resident evil games). "A good time" is the experience devs want people to have.
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Re: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - SM64: Last Impact

Post by Rixithechao »

Not sure if you're responding to me, Ashan, or just in general, but to be clear, when I said
...How is "hey, before you start the game, do you want to look at these features you might not need and can turn off?" overly complicated?
I was referring to my earlier post.
viewtopic.php?p=434230#p434192

And I'm generally an advocate of more specific, intuitive options with clear descriptions when possible. So instead of just some vague, all-encompassing "Difficulty" setting/Easy Mode or what have you it'd be things like, say,
Assist Mode Reminder?
Do you want occasional reminders of this game's Assist Mode?


Reminder Conditions
How soon/often should the Assist mode reminder appear?
<Never>
That second one being a dropdown/wheel in which you can cycle to others like "After [2/5/10] Defeats in a Level", "Every [2/5/10] Defeats" etc.
I'm sure there's much better ways to handle that particular example but hopefully it gets the point across.
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