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An SMWCentral Production: A game about some eggs

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Test Pilot Monkey
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Re: An SMWCentral Production: A game about some eggs

Postby Test Pilot Monkey » 8 years ago

S.N.N. wrote:I'm kind of wondering why people are upset that the switch blocks both helped AND hindered you
I've mentioned before, but I don't see why things should be made easier if you're good enough to get the switch palaces. This level does a great job of showing what I mean.

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Rameau's Nephew
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Re: An SMWCentral Production: A game about some eggs

Postby Rameau's Nephew » 8 years ago

They tell me that thing's called the "Spider Guardian", but I think we all know it's really the Deedle-Ball. I like to think the Deedle-Ball is representative of the ad bots which often plague SMWC. Its small, looping course and limited range of actions represent the bots' simple program and repetitive behavior, and the bombs it drops represent their spamming ad messages, which, though hardly physically harmful, make Mario's life a great deal more annoying (the are also largely identical). The difficulty in dealing actual damage to the Deedle-Ball represents the futility of trying to block individual ad bots; strike one down, and a whole heard of others swoop in to fill its place, as represented by the Deedle-Ball's increased rate of unloading its wearisome cargo as the battle progresses.

If ASMWCP were adapted to a Saturday morning cartoon in the manner of other Super Mario Bros. installmets, the Deedle-Ball would surely be the Token Dumb Guy among on the villainous team.

Fun fact: Even though you are immediately embiggened upon entering the pre-boss screen, and a second mushroom lies at your feet, the Deedle-Ball is much easier small, as the explosions will no longer destroy your blocks, making the back-and-forth trips much faster. The problem, of course, is that if you make one error due to not paying attention (and you invariably will, as this battle is so incredibly boring and repetitive that your attention will start to wander), you have to begin the funfair all over again. Still, I think this tactic provides a slight decrease in headache on the balance.

EDT: Oh, and who's the Nobel Laurette who came up with the line "This looks like technology all right." Seriously, that sounds like something the Deedle-Ball would write.
Last edited by Rameau's Nephew on 04 Feb 2011, 13:18, edited 1 time in total.

Crimson
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Re: An SMWCentral Production: A game about some eggs

Postby Crimson » 8 years ago

That level make me feel playing Sonic more than Metroid for some reason.

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Re: An SMWCentral Production: A game about some eggs

Postby Bean » 8 years ago

The Spider Guardian was easy enough in Prime 2 if you knew how to boost properly. Now, this one? Yeah, he seemed way harder. It's four issues at once that have to be dealt with. You've got the time limit on the blocks, the missiles trying to destroy said blocks, the fact that you have to throw the block up at the right angle, and you also have to do it at the right time to cause damage. One too many things, in my opinion.

Still, that level was a decent 16-bit take on the actual level it's from, I suppose. The Sanctuary Fortress in the Gamecube game is a lot darker outside of the areas that have that neon glow going for it.
Last edited by Bean on 04 Feb 2011, 14:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: An SMWCentral Production: A game about some eggs

Postby raocow » 8 years ago

Also, I don't know if you guys noticed but the first time I encountered the boss, I had unlimited time, but not after I died.
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Test Pilot Monkey
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Re: An SMWCentral Production: A game about some eggs

Postby Test Pilot Monkey » 8 years ago

Metroid in the universe where everybody at Nintendo is colourblind.


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Paragraph
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Re: An SMWCentral Production: A game about some eggs

Postby Paragraph » 8 years ago

Sanctuary Fortress is THE best area in any Prime game; lots of people agree. The palette works (not so much green, more neon), it's fun as hell with an awesome soundtrack and the granddaddy of cool bosses to top it off.

Level was a nice recreation. Boss, too. Spider Guardian is incredibly annoying. Not "hard" per se, just...annoying.

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FPzero
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Re: An SMWCentral Production: A game about some eggs

Postby FPzero » 8 years ago

Author's Comments since you guys like them and I like explaining stuff.
Sanctuary Fortress was probably the second level inserted into the SMWCP rom because I was in ownership of the project back in 2009. After doing level 1, I decided I wanted to do something ambitious. So I went to one of my favorite areas in a video game and decided that I was going to translate Gamecube era graphics and colorations into 16-bit SMW. As you can probably tell, I'm a huge fan of the Metroid series and i wanted to pay it homage in the game somehow. So I redrew what I could of Sanctuary Fortress to fit into the game. Once I did that I built the first 4 screens or so and then promptly forgot about the level for a year and SMWCP went into hibernation. Once SNN took over the project I decided to pick it up once again and this time I finished the level.

I wanted to include some method of exploration or item upgrade in the level so I chose Spider Ball (Climb) since it would be easy to translate into SMW. The level is packed with nooks and crannies that are only accessible by climbing them, giving a little sense of exploration. When raocow got lost and was looking for the next place to go, that's the feeling of Metroid right there.

I agree the colors are a bit garish but with such a limited palette and graphic space there's not much I could do. The palette for that level is a confusing mess in Lunar Magic. All the tiles are hand-drawn using Prime 2 as a resource, including the background. The BG isn't that great but the background for the outside areas is nothing but a skyscape so hey, it worked I guess. Another instance of not having enough colors for good transition. Also, randomly, I like day to night transitions so I decided to spice up the level by doing a normal palette, a sunset palette where red tint got added to everything and then a night palette, then finally the little room with the stars.

The boss is a toss-up. As I mentioned yesterday, there was a lack of communication in its creation so much so that I didn't see its finished form until a pre-release of SMWCP. I'd envisioned a similar fight but lacked ability to make it. To be honest, my version might have been tougher, it didn't originally have a safe floor. I thought about having the guardian drop custom bombs which would act like ones in Super Metroid, where the small blast radius hurts you but not the bomb itself. The electrified track was planned from the start since you beat Spider Guardian in MP2 through indirect damage. Unfortunately, the track was rather hard to see when it was electrified and for some reason Atma decided to only put in one tile to hurt him on.

It's hard to balance a boss like that. The Bombs have to be a threat but the track has to be high or low enough to make them one without being too easy or too hard. And honestly, were it not for the explosions destroying the throw blocks, that would have been achieved. Maybe I should have thought of a setup involving throwing a modified key sprite or something.
In case anyone wants to spoil the "magic" behind how the Spider Climb works you can read this spoiler.
The "upgrade" does nothing more than transfer you from a version of the level where the tracks are nothing but blank tiles to one where they act as vine tiles. No ASM required.
As for why the timer started up again upon dying to the boss, I would hazard a guess that it's related to the multi-midway point.

Well, I'm about done rambling. From what I can tell, you had fun with the level itself raocow, sorry the boss put a damper on things at the end.

I've got one more piece of a level coming towards the end where I reference yet another game which no one will pick up on because honestly no one would ever think it's a reference besides the music. But we'll get there when we get there.

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Re: An SMWCentral Production: A game about some eggs

Postby yoshicookiezeus » 8 years ago

Just wanted to say that this level and the world 6 fortress are probably my favourite levels in the entire hack. The boss should totally have been Quadraxis instead, though. :V
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Re: An SMWCentral Production: A game about some eggs

Postby S.N.N. » 8 years ago

Clearing up some things about the spider boss as well (because honestly, from watching it, I can imagine a lot of people getting confused with how to kill it).

-You do NOT need to hit the switch exactly when the ball is on the square. You just need the ball to cross the square when it's active (meaning if the ball is anywhere on the right side of its platform, that should be sufficient).
-I'm not sure why raocow was jumping and flinging the block up when he could have just flung it up right underneath that block while staying on the rail. That would have made things easier.

I agree with everyone else though - this is probably the most irritating/boring boss in the hack, although I personally didn't have much trouble beating it.

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Re: An SMWCentral Production: A game about some eggs

Postby raocow » 8 years ago

Out of curiosity, is the level after, To Much Land Bellow or what-have-you.. is it supposed to be pretty hard? Or is the problem me here.
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MrDeePay
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Re: An SMWCentral Production: A game about some eggs

Postby MrDeePay » 8 years ago

Other than some stingy segments with errors and a buggy Shy Guy sprite, not really.

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Re: An SMWCentral Production: A game about some eggs

Postby Dollop of Mayo » 8 years ago

Without prior knowledge of the game this boss came from and a total lack of any hints as to how to beat it and a very poor visual cue as to what to do, yeah, this was a really terrible boss.

I've only played Metroid Prime 1 but that game was full of information about how to deal with the situation you're in. You could scan bosses and frequently there would be information about them in computer databases. So in MP2 if that trend continued I highly doubt you were thrust unprepared into a situation with the boss the level's was based upon.

There have been a few levels in this hack where those handy dandy message blocks could have been put to good use.

I don't know who out there has more fun in a game where they don't know anything and that's where the challenge comes from. Being provided with foreknowledge and then having to USE that knowledge is a good challenge. This boss would have still proven challenging but not tedious had raocow known what he was aiming for from the start.

Obviously this is all hindsight but you know, again, something to take into account for SWCP2.
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Re: An SMWCentral Production: A game about some eggs

Postby S.N.N. » 8 years ago

DancingMad wrote:stuff about the boss
I've never played MP2 (at least, not up to this boss), and I had no issue figuring out how to beat it on my first run. I just treated it like a first run of a boss from any other game - messed around for a bit wondering what to do, and figuring it out after I saw the hurt blocks. I can understand the "if you haven't played x then you won't get y" argument most of the time, but here .. I dunno. I personally don't think it applies.

It looks like all of SMWCP2's bosses will be original designs anyway, so it'll come down to having to figure out each fight without any other knowledge.

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Re: An SMWCentral Production: A game about some eggs

Postby Kleiner Kokiri » 8 years ago

I figured it out rather fast as well.
Now after seeing today's episode i cannot wait for the Boss in Desert Town. raocow will play for hours :D

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Re: An SMWCentral Production: A game about some eggs

Postby limepie20 » 8 years ago

I wanted to like the level but I didn't. It looked great but the background ruined it for me. It just didn't look right having this robot base thing with no roof or walls and I didn't like that at all. But I guess it had to stay with the cloud theme somehow.

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Dollop of Mayo
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Re: An SMWCentral Production: A game about some eggs

Postby Dollop of Mayo » 8 years ago

Well good on you; I don't know if it was something about the video though, but it took me a few times AFTER raocow noticed the yellow flashing dealy to know what in the world he was talking about.

You might have figured it out quickly but not everybody else will. Taking the stance of "well if it was easy for me it is thereby easy for everybody" is a very narrow way to look at things.
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Re: An SMWCentral Production: A game about some eggs

Postby Wyatt » 8 years ago

For those of you who didn't play the game, it's really unfair to say that what you had to do wasn't obvious.

Don't forget that there were two fights with the same boss, the first of which was in a fairly safe room, so that the player could safely experiment and figure out that the boss' weakness is the electric panels. Unluckily, raocow just happened to hit the boss in the right place first try (which is seriously unlikely unless you huck the block from the other side of the room like he did) and therefore didn't learn anything from the fight.

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Kleiner Kokiri
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Re: An SMWCentral Production: A game about some eggs

Postby Kleiner Kokiri » 8 years ago

It's not unlikely. It happened to me as well. This is why i thought, the switch just activated the door or something.
The whole case could have been easily dismissed if this boss had a hit counter or something. Then at least you could see if damage was done or not.

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Re: An SMWCentral Production: A game about some eggs

Postby Bleaghhh » 8 years ago

Yeah, I think the original fight with the easier version made the fight much easier, I got from the first room that you had to zap him with the electric bits. It was still pretty hard to see in the second room though, I got hit a couple of times by the 'lectric on the bottom spider climb before I noticed it was there.

Desert boss though, that one took me a few minutes to figure.

I hate it when..
..hitting a boss seems to do something but really there's a trick to it. I always just assume they have mega health. I did the same thing with Bowser in world 8 before he jumped into the lava himself...

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Re: An SMWCentral Production: A game about some eggs

Postby Argumentable » 8 years ago

You can totally see tiles change color when you hit that switch.

PS this is the first video I've watched of this, but I will say I don't like the enemy graphics. I think they look derpy as hell.

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Re: An SMWCentral Production: A game about some eggs

Postby S.N.N. » 8 years ago

DancingMad wrote:Taking the stance of "well if it was easy for me it is thereby easy for everybody" is a very narrow way to look at things.
I .. wasn't taking that stance at all. I was just stating it from my perspective. The majority of people I've talked to who actually -played- the hack had no issues figuring the boss out - just difficulties actually beating it.

Eh. Oh well.

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Re: An SMWCentral Production: A game about some eggs

Postby Chdata » 8 years ago

I had no clue what I was doing really when I fought it. I've never played metroid so I also had no clue that this whole level was a reference to that even when I got the powerup thing.

edit: See the boss runs I posted in the TAS thread since I'll have the trackspinner run there.
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Re: An SMWCentral Production: A game about some eggs

Postby freelop » 8 years ago

Tiny time limits are always scary, reminds me a little of the poison gas house in vip(4?)
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