raocow's talkhaus

Leet wrote: ↑3 years ago They were just saying what songs they liked and didn't like because it was the topic of conversation, jesus christ yelsey. They weren't challenging your post whatsoever

Also if you made something of course youre going to talk about why the choices made were made, that's not "defensive" it's "having intent behind your choices"

All right, maybe I did get carried away. But every time I make a criticism about the (over)use of default music, the reaction is *always* the same: "I love that song!" As though that just completely shuts down criticism. Well, maybe not all of us *do*. Or at least, we don't want to hear it, again, *for three to five stages in a row*.

Also, frankly, I'm just fed up at the dismissal of complaints/criticisms and weak defenses of everything in this hack as "being intentional". All right. So that changes what you did to "something I didn't like... that you did on purpose". Which changes things..............how? Seriously. Do people *really* think I'm so stupid that I believe these design decisions happened by accident?

Ashan wrote: ↑3 years ago

YelseyKing wrote:

gbreeze wrote: ↑3 years agomost of the songs I find okay

Every one of your posts is so highly defensive of every little thing people find wrong -- your visions were all so meaningful and perfect and we're all just a bunch of whinebabies for challenging your "artistic masterpiece".

Now *there* was a spectacularly useless post. *applause*

Really sounds like this is on you for reading it this way. Sometimes people just want to voice their opinion about whatever the fuck came up and it isn't motivated out of silencing you - not that it would matter, because criticism is also not immune from criticism

Also, yes artists are going to tell you why they made the choices they made. That's called "reflecting on the creative process". It's not supposed to "change things" because nobody has any obligation to "change things" for you or anyone.

If an explanation and insight as to why their opinion is different from yours isn't satisfactory, what is? What kind of response are you looking for? Unconditional agreement? None at all?

Leet wrote: ↑3 years ago Also, yes artists are going to tell you why they made the choices they made. That's called "reflecting on the creative process". It's not supposed to "change things" because nobody has any obligation to "change things" for you or anyone.

So basically, you're telling me there was an "artistic vision" behind using the default Athletic theme for a third of the game's stages? Well, I suppose it does thematically work, as nearly every stage that's used it has felt like uninspired filler, so hey.

Leet wrote: ↑3 years ago If an explanation and insight as to why their opinion is different from yours isn't satisfactory, what is? What kind of response are you looking for? Unconditional agreement? None at all?

What would I like? At least some kind of acknowledgement about how, you know, maybe we *do* have a point, even if they're adamantly against it for whatever reason. I don't criticize things because I'm a horrible person who wants to take people down a peg. I criticize things because, shockingly, I *like* them; I *care* about them, and I find it unfortunate that there's these little fixable flaws that muck things up. No, they're not obligated to change anything just because one person doesn't like them, but I find the whole "it's intentional" defense insulting on a personal level, because it, as I said, comes across as people thinking I'm too stupid to realize that; that I thought it happened by accident somehow. No. I don't believe *anything* (short of glitches) happened "accidentally" in the design of this hack, or indeed, *any* game. But there's absolutely nothing wrong with being flexible, and admitting to yourself, "yeah, maybe this worked better in my head than it does in practice".

Drama'd Up Mario Party

guess what that shortens to

You just said right now that everyone tells you their choices were intentional.

If you think "art" implies some "higher" meaning to what I'm saying, it doesn't - I'm not going to split hairs about creative works. I'm not saying that with a positive connotation. But I'm basing this entirely off of what you said. You didn't like gbreeze's post, which was talking about why the music choices ended up the way they are. That's an artist talking about their decisions.

YelseyKing wrote: ↑3 years ago What would I like? At least some kind of acknowledgement about how, you know, maybe we *do* have a point

What if they don't think you have a point? I expect people to not be rude about it, but anybody can (and does) criticize anything. There is absolutely no obligation on anyone's part to find "a point" in all criticism, just as there is absolutely no obligation on anyone's part to find "a point" in all works that they are criticizing.

Leet wrote: ↑3 years ago What if they don't think you have a point?

Then that's just them being closed-minded and arrogant, frankly. If you don't want to listen to feedback, don't release your creative works.

Also, there's a huge difference between saying "All right, I can kinda see where you're coming from, but..." and just outright dismissing it. If you *can't* see where someone is coming from, and *don't* believe they're making a valid point, I'm sorry, but that rubs me the wrong way.

i know this is ironic coming from me who literally got banned for getting into a beef with morsel but let's all just relax and discuss this like adults and realize that no one was trying to dismiss the other's opinions nor is anyone trying to shit on jumphalf

and let's also keep ourselves from fanning the flames just for haha epic lulz gamers xddddd like in the last page

YelseyKing wrote: What would I like? At least some kind of acknowledgement about how, you know, maybe we *do* have a point, even if they're adamantly against it for whatever reason. I don't criticize things because I'm a horrible person who wants to take people down a peg. I criticize things because, shockingly, I *like* them; I *care* about them, and I find it unfortunate that there's these little fixable flaws that muck things up.

yk i think you're misunderstanding this

gbreeze put a "Personally," in front of everything else to say that it's merely their opinion. they're not saying you don't have a point or that your opinion doesn't matter. i can understand having issue with how things are worded like, i'm in the spectrum too and that's just A Thing I Do (tm), so i hope i can make you understand that you're probably just reading things wrong

it's okay you doof

YelseyKing wrote: ↑3 years ago

Leet wrote: ↑3 years ago What if they don't think you have a point?

Then that's just them being closed-minded and arrogant, frankly. If you don't want to listen to feedback, don't release your creative works.

Also, there's a huge difference between saying "All right, I can kinda see where you're coming from, but..." and just outright dismissing it. If you *can't* see where someone is coming from, and *don't* believe they're making a valid point, I'm sorry, but that rubs me the wrong way.

Creative works are made to be creative, not to be appealing. (Not so relevant in the context of a gameplay-focused mario romhack, but still.) If you really think nobody should share anything unless they're interested in Objectively Improving their Skills... that sounds a bit elitist to me!

Leet wrote: ↑3 years ago

YelseyKing wrote: ↑3 years ago

Leet wrote: ↑3 years ago What if they don't think you have a point?

Then that's just them being closed-minded and arrogant, frankly. If you don't want to listen to feedback, don't release your creative works.

Also, there's a huge difference between saying "All right, I can kinda see where you're coming from, but..." and just outright dismissing it. If you *can't* see where someone is coming from, and *don't* believe they're making a valid point, I'm sorry, but that rubs me the wrong way.

Creative works are made to be creative, not to be appealing. (Not so relevant in the context of a gameplay-focused mario romhack, but still.) If you really think nobody should share anything unless they're interested in Objectively Improving their Skills... that sounds a bit elitist to me!

I have no problem with "do it for yourself". Hell, I do that a lot. But once something has been released, it no longer just belongs to "the creator", and flippantly dismissing everyone's complaints makes it look like you don't really care what anyone thinks. Which is, again, *fine*, but then you sort of, at least in my eyes, forfeit the right to get on the defensive.

Also, if you're not interested in improving, then why even bother in the first place? Learning and improving should just be a *given* anywhere in life, frankly.

And I want to make it clear: I am *not* shitting on Jumphalf, or anyone involved in it. I absolutely *love* the hack; it's hands down *the* best SMW hack I've ever played, and it's so much better than the competition that it's not funny. But that doesn't mean I think it couldn't be *even better* with a few changes. It's just that the JUMP team seems to be so incredibly defensive and inflexible about it, that I'm finding it *very* frustrating.

Where you're coming from is partially lost on me, since I don't see "personally, these are my opinions on the SMW music" as being defensive or inflexible at all. Or any other post. And there's been a lot of talk about levels that were cut or heavily changed in development. I know this sounds patronizing, but I really, really think this is you misreading other people.

Leet wrote: ↑3 years agoI know this sounds patronizing, but I really, really think this is you misreading other people.

I wholly acknowledge that may very well be the case. I do have a bad tendency to misread/misinterpret what people say, and then respond inappropriately (or, rather, in my mind, it's the appropriate response, but since I misinterpreted it, to everyone *else*, it's the wrong direction). It's a personal flaw I'm well aware I have, and in that regard, I do apologize for being out of line.

That said, I do feel like you also rather missed the point of what I was trying to say, as well. Which is that -- and I apologize if I didn't make this clearer -- I don't like my criticisms being completely dismissed. No, they're not obligated to cave to my demands, and I'm not arrogant enough to believe anyone *should*. But at least an *acknowledgement* of them; a "I guess I see where you're coming from, but I did it this way because..." response that shows you're at least *paying attention* to what people are saying, is infinitely preferrable to what I'm just reading as a brush-off.

YelseyKing wrote: ↑3 years agoEvery one of your posts is so highly defensive of every little thing people find wrong -- your visions were all so meaningful and perfect and we're all just a bunch of whinebabies for challenging your "artistic masterpiece".

That was extremely uncalled for and just plain rude.

Look at gbreeze‘s posts again, he starts every single one of them with „In my opinion...“, „Personally...“, „This is not supposed to be a defense of the hack, more of an explanation of why we did things a certain way.“

If you want to tell us your opinions without anyone challenging them at all, you‘re at the wrong place on a forum like this.

Well tbf Yelsey didn't actually say that - that's how Ashan interpreted and paraphrased the situation.

ano0maly wrote: ↑3 years ago Well tbf Yelsey didn't actually say that - that's how Ashan interpreted and paraphrased the situation.

Uh, no? Ashan just directly quoted Yelsey, didn't you read his post

Oh, I didn't notice because it seemed so trimmed up that I thought that was Ashan's summary of the two quoted posts.

Honestly I don't think creators should be obligated to acknowledge criticism in the first place?

Wild how Yelsey has continually been starting shit for days on end and yet keeps affirming that “oh I still like this hack don’t worry”. Go ahead just insult gbreeze like that, oh look he blanked out his goddamn account probably because of you acting like a fucking clown.

Just fuck off yelsey. Stop posting in this thread. No one cares that you think the athletic theme was used too much or whatever, you are literally just nitpicking every god damn minor thing. You’re entitled to your opinion but no one has to listen to it or bow down to whatever logic you have. I’m not tolerating this anymore especially when your posts are getting outright malicious.

Ryrir wrote: ↑3 years ago

YelseyKing wrote: ↑3 years agoEvery one of your posts is so highly defensive of every little thing people find wrong -- your visions were all so meaningful and perfect and we're all just a bunch of whinebabies for challenging your "artistic masterpiece".

That was extremely uncalled for and just plain rude.

Yes, I was wrong, I spoke in anger, I misinterpreted what he said, and incorrectly responded to what I *thought* he was saying, and I am sorry.

Ryrir wrote: ↑3 years ago If you want to tell us your opinions without anyone challenging them at all, you‘re at the wrong place on a forum like this.

If anything, this thread has taught me just how far apart I am from everyone else on this forum in terms of what I consider good/bad design. I've had very few people, if any, *agreeing* with me, after all. But what can I say? It gets frustrating to me when I feel like I'm just getting brushed off.

Pyro wrote: ↑3 years ago Wild how Yelsey has continually been starting shit for days on end and yet keeps affirming that “oh I still like this hack don’t worry”. Go ahead just insult gbreeze like that, oh look he blanked out his goddamn account probably because of you acting like a fucking clown.

Just fuck off yelsey. Stop posting in this thread. No one cares that you think the athletic theme was used too much or whatever, you are literally just nitpicking every god damn minor thing. You’re entitled to your opinion but no one has to listen to it or bow down to whatever logic you have. I’m not tolerating this anymore especially when your posts are getting outright malicious.

Whoooooaaa there. I admit I was out of line, but really? Other than one instance -- in which I *flat out admitted I was wrong* -- in which I went after gbreeze, I've tried to be as civil as I could.

Also, believe whatever you want; I *do* love Jumphalf, and while this will probably sound like I'm sucking up -- and I assure you, I am most certainly *not* -- I *especially* loved *your* levels. I'm *very* sorry that I misinterpreted the situation and acted like an ass, and I further apologize to everyone I hurt or offended, but I'm *not* sorry for having unpopular opinions, either.

Your opinion is valid to you by default; I don't think most people would post just to affirm someone of that because it wouldn't really contribute to wider discussion.

Like yes I agree it's probably a good thing to not have the same music track play over and over. Ok. I didn't feel the need to tell you I agreed because I thought it was obvious; I suspect most people who actually worked on the game would also agree. Nobody said anything because there was nothing more to be said.

YelseyKing wrote: On one hand, you have a load of reset doors, which are kind enough to simply restart that current section, instead of dropping you at the start of the area; very nice. However, then you have the second half, which has a fair few instances where if you mess up, your only option is to die.

Ideally, the stage would have almost no reset doors and death would be the only option. However, I realized this would be too much for what JUMP half is about, and threw in a bunch of resets afterwards. If they seem inconsistently placed, this is most likely the reason why.

gbreeze wrote: I believe that JUMP 1/2's use of randomly using both custom and vanilla songs are simply a reference (or relic, if you would prefer to use that) of the original JUMP. Also, much like the main overworld uses vanilla colors, I think the vanilla songs are a matter of personal style at times.

Yea, basically this.

YelseyKing wrote: Also, frankly, I'm just fed up at the dismissal of complaints/criticisms and weak defenses of everything in this hack as "being intentional". All right. So that changes what you did to "something I didn't like... that you did on purpose". Which changes things..............how? Seriously. Do people *really* think I'm so stupid that I believe these design decisions happened by accident?

I can't speak for anyone else, but being the author of the level that had vanilla music, I can say that it was intentional. I get why someone might not enjoy listening to vanilla music for long play sessions, but it's not a universal opinion. If I had to make the level over again, I'd be absolutely fine using vanilla music.

MiracleWater wrote: ↑3 years ago

YelseyKing wrote: On one hand, you have a load of reset doors, which are kind enough to simply restart that current section, instead of dropping you at the start of the area; very nice. However, then you have the second half, which has a fair few instances where if you mess up, your only option is to die.

Ideally, the stage would have almost no reset doors and death would be the only option. However, I realized this would be too much for what JUMP half is about, and threw in a bunch of resets afterwards. If they seem inconsistently placed, this is most likely the reason why.

Hey, that's fair. Like I said, I liked the stage, I was just a bit confused at its inconsistency. Thanks for clearing that up.

MiracleWater wrote: ↑3 years ago

YelseyKing wrote: Also, frankly, I'm just fed up at the dismissal of complaints/criticisms and weak defenses of everything in this hack as "being intentional". All right. So that changes what you did to "something I didn't like... that you did on purpose". Which changes things..............how? Seriously. Do people *really* think I'm so stupid that I believe these design decisions happened by accident?

I can't speak for anyone else, but being the author of the level that had vanilla music, I can say that it was intentional. I get why someone might not enjoy listening to vanilla music for long play sessions, but it's not a universal opinion. If I had to make the level over again, I'd be absolutely fine using vanilla music.

And since you put it that way, it's a decision I can ultimately fully respect. I acknowledge it was a nitpick; I didn't expect nor want it to blow up like this. I've apologized several times, and I'll do it again: I'm sorry for the shit I stirred up.

I think this game peaked at the blue switch

Yeah um Pyro I can understand that you feel you've had enough of reading this, but when you first make a post again in over a year and it's this, I think it just escalates the situation further. Do we really need to respond to loud arguing with even louder yelling like this?

I really don't get why JUMPhalf discussion has become this much of a dumpster. I thought the quality of the hack and the experience has improved since the original JUMP????

re: today's level, I also had the sense that the green coins that denoted where to jump weren't initially in the level but were added later as a difficulty adjustment, but was I right?

edit: not that I'm criticizing it or anything (although I guess pointing out a feeling of inconsistency in the level is implicitly a criticism) I just wanted to feel smart