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JUMP ½ - Half a jump is still a jump

this is the place where lps are being talked about. it's important to talk about games being played on the internet.
strongbadman
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Re: JUMP ϕ(14)/ϕ(13) - Half a jump is still a jump

Postby strongbadman » 6 months ago

Actually wait, what was with that 1up in the paste level? It didn't seem to trigger any checkpoints.

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Validon98
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Re: JUMP ϕ(14)/ϕ(13) - Half a jump is still a jump

Postby Validon98 » 6 months ago

Sometimes a 1up is just a 1up?
Because Mystia's being a big ol' goofball.

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Implo
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Re: JUMP ϕ(14)/ϕ(13) - Half a jump is still a jump

Postby Implo » 6 months ago

I don't like first level. WE LOVE PIRANHA has a lot of projectiles. It change fast into bullet hell and I mentioned during Bowser fight, I am very bad at bullet hells. Also it felt out of the place for me that this level has no any special asm gimmick.

The second level - Perturbing Paste was really fun for most of the part. After all this jumps, spin jumps, double jumps, duck jumps, Demo finally learns a head jump. But I wasn't fan of last puzzle with blue block. I usually always hold X for running and B or A only to gain height. Here I was forced to do opposite - always holding B and release and again hold X. This put my fingers into uncomfortable position and because of that I had a lot of the problem with throwing block upward and also quickly jump out from gray platforms (because I was so focused on holding B, because of pink paste). This little puzzle was very challenging for me. And just on it I did 30 times before I barely did it.

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Nimono
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Re: JUMP ϕ(14)/ϕ(13) - Half a jump is still a jump

Postby Nimono » 6 months ago

Mandew wrote: I can kinda imagine the pain involved here. jumphalf is one of the best romhacks... no, one of the best games to come out of the bowels of the romhacking world. Imagine putting all the effort that went into making everything feel just right (literally, 90% of the time and effort this game was in production for. Just... three whole years spent polishing everything) and what you can't help but hear is nitpick after nitpick. Not even helpful criticism -- just, nitpick after nitpick.

And imagine that, whenever you go and explain the extremely deliberate nature of your design choices (3-years worth of deliberation, it cannot be understated), you're being called out for being "defensive".

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more disgusted I become.
I can understand that, but just because it was a lot of hard work doesn't mean it's safe from, what you call nitpicks. Sometimes, those people have a point. You guys all put a lot of hard work into it, and it shows, but it's not infallible- expect criticism and nitpicks! There's nothing wrong with them!

So I quite liked Perturbed Paste today! What a great gimmick! I would've loved to have seen it be used on the ground sometimes, too, though, like that mud from Bowser's Castle- nothing that lands on it has friction or can change its Y speed. Then again, denying jumps is already annoying... so maybe not.

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Mandew
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Re: JUMP ϕ(14)/ϕ(13) - Half a jump is still a jump

Postby Mandew » 6 months ago

Nimono wrote:
Mandew wrote: I can kinda imagine the pain involved here. jumphalf is one of the best romhacks... no, one of the best games to come out of the bowels of the romhacking world. Imagine putting all the effort that went into making everything feel just right (literally, 90% of the time and effort this game was in production for. Just... three whole years spent polishing everything) and what you can't help but hear is nitpick after nitpick. Not even helpful criticism -- just, nitpick after nitpick.

And imagine that, whenever you go and explain the extremely deliberate nature of your design choices (3-years worth of deliberation, it cannot be understated), you're being called out for being "defensive".

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more disgusted I become.
I can understand that, but just because it was a lot of hard work doesn't mean it's safe from, what you call nitpicks. Sometimes, those people have a point. You guys all put a lot of hard work into it, and it shows, but it's not infallible- expect criticism and nitpicks! There's nothing wrong with them!
While it's true that no form of media is immune to critique, I have to disagree with the notion that critiques or nitpicks can do no wrong. In fact, critiques are themselves not immune to criticism.
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Nimono
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Re: JUMP ϕ(14)/ϕ(13) - Half a jump is still a jump

Postby Nimono » 6 months ago

Mandew wrote: While it's true that no form of media is immune to critique, I have to disagree with the notion that critiques or nitpicks can do no wrong. In fact, critiques are themselves not immune to criticism.
Mmm, you do have a point there. Nothing's immune from criticism, not even criticism itself!

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MiracleWater
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Re: JUMP arg(1+(√(-1)))*(2/π) - Half a jump is still a jump

Postby MiracleWater » 6 months ago

Shout out to Mandew for making the sticky ceiling block. I designed the level when it was first posted on smwcentral, which was now almost 3 years ago.

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Ashan
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Re: JUMP arg(1+(√(-1)))*(2/π) - Half a jump is still a jump

Postby Ashan » 6 months ago

I liked the sticky blocks and they looked fun to play with but I feel like they might have made more sense as like... anti-gravity blocks or something? Organic magnet blocks maybe? "Sticky" doesn't really come to mind with how the blocks actually behave, being able to quickly move back and forth while stuck to them, and having them fling you upward if you launch off a corner block.
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polaris
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Re: JUMP ϕ(14)/ϕ(13) - Half a jump is still a jump

Postby polaris » 6 months ago

strongbadman wrote: Actually wait, what was with that 1up in the paste level? It didn't seem to trigger any checkpoints.
It's kind of funny that a bonus 1up seems so bizarre because of their exclusive use as checkpoints in this hack. weirdly enough I only just noticed today that checkpoint 1ups also locked in your dragon coins (although I remember now that it happened in yesterday's level before the puzzle, too) so it was pretty funny when I realized the first dragon coin in the paste level randomly got saved due to that bonus 1up :v

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nothobz
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Re: JUMP arg(1+(√(-1)))*(2/π) - Half a jump is still a jump

Postby nothobz » 6 months ago

Image some cut off i found in todays level. i'd say im surprised this kind of glaring issue made it into the final produc, but honestly, at this poimnt, im not :roll:

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Kilgamayan
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Re: JUMP arg(1+(√(-1)))*(2/π) - Half a jump is still a jump

Postby Kilgamayan » 6 months ago

Absolutely disgusting

Forty lashes with a cat-o-nine-tails, right there
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Enjl
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Re: JUMP arg(1+(√(-1)))*(2/π) - Half a jump is still a jump

Postby Enjl » 6 months ago

Ashan wrote: I liked the sticky blocks and they looked fun to play with but I feel like they might have made more sense as like... anti-gravity blocks or something? Organic magnet blocks maybe? "Sticky" doesn't really come to mind with how the blocks actually behave, being able to quickly move back and forth while stuck to them, and having them fling you upward if you launch off a corner block.
quite perturbing indeed

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Re: JUMP arg(1+(√(-1)))*(2/π) - Half a jump is still a jump

Postby LunarRainbowShyGuy » 6 months ago

I liked these levels. I've mentioned before that I tend to dislike fire spitting piranha plants because they often make you wait, but that's not the case in WE LOVE PIRANHA. In fact, as raocow said, it seems like you're generally meant to go quickly, and it's the level architecture that forces you to slow down and deal with the fireballs. While some people might not like something with this much projectile density, it's actually something I like quite a bit.

I liked the gimmick used in Perturbing Paste. I feel like I've been talking a lot about different people having different play styles, but I couldn't help but notice that raocow had some trouble with bouncing on the disco shell while I didn't. If you match your speed with the shell's before coming to the gap in the goo you can get across fairly easily, and there was one time where I was sure raocow was going to do that, but he stopped right before the gap. I know it's not really a big deal or anything, but I just find this kind of thing to be interesting.

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HiroshiMishima
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Re: JUMP arg(1+(√(-1)))*(2/π) - Half a jump is still a jump

Postby HiroshiMishima » 6 months ago

I guess the take away from this is watch what you say or you'll make someone cry. This is the sort of nonsense that saw me shy away from joining the Talkhaus to begin with, but I was really hoping that sorta stuff had just been an isolated event. Yet I'm seeing it happen over and over again. As one person said, the Mario community seems to take even the most minute criticism as a personal attack.

Hearing the same song over and over IS going to make it tedious or grating. I don't care if that doesn't happen to someone personally, it's something tangible that many, many people can agree upon.

I don't care how good you are or claim to be, if people are struggling with your level that IS in part on you as a developer. Especially in a game that's supposed to be more approachable. Considering the hell-nature of so many Mario hacks, which is the very reason many avoid them, this statement is expected to carry a fair amount of weight.

Not everyone is as good as you. This is a hard lesson that absolutely everyone, be they players or developers, needs to understand. If your response is "git gud" or "that's not my fault" or even "then don't play it", you have failed. I'm out of this discussion. I'm just tired of seeing people squabble like little kids because someone had the audacity to say "I didn't like Y."

The whole reason any of us are here is because we love raocow and his videos, or at least that was the impression I was given. We're watching a funny man play games featuring a fat plumber and a horse. Or a frog. Or a gerbil.

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Arctangent
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Re: JUMP arg(1+(√(-1)))*(2/π) - Half a jump is still a jump

Postby Arctangent » 6 months ago

HiroshiMishima wrote: I'm out of this discussion.
you say, planting yourself firmly into it with a take that practically screams "people who play games competitively don't actually exist, you have to develop a game solely for people like me"

like i will always vouch for games to have more accessibility where feasible but to call devs of any game remotely above your skill level - or even a game with a part above your skill level - outright failures is downright assholish and self-centered, not to mention extremely reductive towards game design and the possible experiences one can craft using it

i mean goddamn, there's entire genres of games where struggling is the point. there are people who will continuously purchase games that will kick their asses several times over, and then come up with extra ways to play 'em to get some more ass kickery out of 'em. have these people been "failed" by the devs of the game they actively seek out? is there some supreme moral quandary here, where these "failures" of developers have lead these players to the wrong path, as declared by ye olde video game pope?

what about speedrunners? what about people who play in multiplayer tournaments? what about people who take time every day to climb up a ranked ladder? what about people who do incredibly complicated set ups to beat what's supposed to be unbeatable, just because they can?

even if you have your mind absolutely set that art has to be created for other people to some extent, why do you have to be part of that intended audience? there are literal billions of people on this earth, why do your needs as a video game player trump everyone else's?

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YelseyKing
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Re: JUMP arg(1+(√(-1)))*(2/π) - Half a jump is still a jump

Postby YelseyKing » 6 months ago

I just want to apologize again for what I said yesterday. I offer no excuses. I was out of line.

More on-topic, I look forward to the next stage. It was probably my favorite in the entire game... so very clever.
HiroshiMishima wrote: I guess the take away from this is watch what you say or you'll make someone cry. This is the sort of nonsense that saw me shy away from joining the Talkhaus to begin with, but I was really hoping that sorta stuff had just been an isolated event. Yet I'm seeing it happen over and over again. As one person said, the Mario community seems to take even the most minute criticism as a personal attack.
Hey... I haven't seen you around a whole lot, but I'm glad you *did* join Talkhaus, and I'm sorry this all had to happen. Please don't let my idiocy last night scare you off; the community is not usually like this, contrary to what some have suggested... and neither am I.

Your posts have all been well thought out and rational, and hey, you seem to share a lot of the same feelings on game design and difficulty as I do, so having someone actually *agree* with me on some of these things is a refreshing change of pace!
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KobaBeach
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Re: JUMP arg(1+(√(-1)))*(2/π) - Half a jump is still a jump

Postby KobaBeach » 6 months ago

a certain user here who shall remain nameless told me over discord she was considering just ghosting talkhaus because of all the pointless discourse starting over every single little piece of bullshit and i dont really blame her

i honestly might just stay away from mario threads for the most part with all of this like we have someone saying "dismissing people's criticism with 'git gud' is Bad. im not saying anymore on this" and then someone replies with "OH SO YOU'RE SAYING PEOPLE CAN'T MAKE HARD GAMES YOU CAN'T JUST WALK AWAY FROM THAT" is like

talkhaus is where reasonable discussions go to die

also perturbing paste just reminds me of bad the games factory sonic fangames
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Sebby19
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Re: JUMP arg(1+(√(-1)))*(2/π) - Half a jump is still a jump

Postby Sebby19 » 6 months ago

HiroshiMishima wrote: This is the sort of nonsense that saw me shy away from joining the Talkhaus to begin with, but I was really hoping that sorta stuff had just been an isolated event.
I'm gonna snip this because you raised a good point:
The lurkers are watching, you guys. You might think you're arguing in an enclosed room, but its more like an open suburban street.

Let's put on a good image. :pal:
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Arctangent
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Re: JUMP arg(1+(√(-1)))*(2/π) - Half a jump is still a jump

Postby Arctangent » 6 months ago

KobaBeach wrote: i honestly might just stay away from mario threads for the most part with all of this like we have someone saying "dismissing people's criticism with 'git gud' is Bad. im not saying anymore on this" and then someone replies with "OH SO YOU'RE SAYING PEOPLE CAN'T MAKE HARD GAMES YOU CAN'T JUST WALK AWAY FROM THAT" is like
y'sure did read that one part of his post and ignore everything immediate preceding it, yep

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Re: JUMP arg(1+(√(-1)))*(2/π) - Half a jump is still a jump

Postby Koopster » 6 months ago

the lurkers are watching you getting angry over video games :catplanet:

Remember that no one in the jumphalf team has written a contract stating the approachability of the game. If you think it's too hard or unfun to you, there's no more to it - don't play it. As much as this game was made trying harder to be more reasonable than its predecessor, in the end our goal was to have fun and plop out a nice looking game thing by us, as should be the goal of a hobby! and clearly there's an audience for the content we have fun making, an audience which you may or may not be a part of. And either is completely fine.
As for the nitpicks, it's as okay for you to have them as it is okay for us as creators to defend our own choices. I've heard the vanilla music complaint before elsewhere, and I can understand people being tired of hearing it, but it is a matter of style as well, which again, has its audience. Don't forget video games is a science of huge subjectivity.

Moreover, I can completely understand us as authors getting a little pissed at people who seem to be complete outsiders of said audience but stick around to complain about every single thing they can anyway because they just -dis-like the game that much (I don't have any names in mind as I barely paid attention to anything that happened. yes, I saw yelsey's apology/him saying he likes the game).
it's okay to mention things that tick you off in a game you think should be for you, but if there's such a huge clash with your style, you're probably better off playing/watching something else. that should just be a given!
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Shard1697
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Re: JUMP arg(1+(√(-1)))*(2/π) - Half a jump is still a jump

Postby Shard1697 » 6 months ago

negative school has super bumpin music
HiroshiMishima wrote: Not everyone is as good as you.
Not every game needs to be made for everyone. Mass appeal is not more important than all other aspects of game design.

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Piesonscreations
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Re: JUMP arg(1+(√(-1)))*(2/π) - Half a jump is still a jump

Postby Piesonscreations » 6 months ago

Talkhaus, more like Arguehaus, am I right? :partygator: hehehehehe

But really now, in the past year i've been actively visiting this forum, i've only really noticed like 3 threads that have gotten actually sour, that said I can undersand how it can be uncomfortable to see it happen, but at the end of the day, I think we usually get our shit together and try to make this somewhat enjoyable for everyone. Godspeed peeps.
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Bean
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Re: JUMP arg(1+(√(-1)))*(2/π) - Half a jump is still a jump

Postby Bean » 6 months ago

I would hope everyone's made their point at this point. I'll admit. I've barely been following this series due to time and haven't looked at the thread at all, but enough already. One person doesn't like the difficulty, and I'm sure others agree. Others don't agree with that. Seems to be the gist of the recent debate here.

I'd actually like the thread to be about the game or the person playing it, and I can understand that's going to bring out the opinions, but can we quit with the whole passive-aggressive dialogue or just flat-out aggressive stuff here? It'd make things a lot easier!

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idol
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Re: JUMP arg(1+(√(-1)))*(2/π) - Half a jump is still a jump

Postby idol » 6 months ago

HiroshiMishima wrote: I don't care how good you are or claim to be, if people are struggling with your level that IS in part on you as a developer. Especially in a game that's supposed to be more approachable. Considering the hell-nature of so many Mario hacks, which is the very reason many avoid them, this statement is expected to carry a fair amount of weight.

Not everyone is as good as you. This is a hard lesson that absolutely everyone, be they players or developers, needs to understand. If your response is "git gud" or "that's not my fault" or even "then don't play it", you have failed.
this reminds me of that one time someone made a weird post on reddit saying smw central was ableist because we allowed kaizo hacks and kaizo hacks are oppressive to people who aren't at that skill level to handle them.

anyways of course this hack could've been easy as the sun so a four year old could beat it with time to spare, but there is a difficulty listing on smw central for a reason. jumphalf isn't listed to be "easy", or "normal" - it's under "hard". not everyone may be as good as more experienced players, but not everything has to be accessible to every single person.

it's not about "if jumphalf is too hard for you, get better at playing smw". it's that developers can't make a product that every single person of every skill level can enjoy the same amount. jumphalf could be easy as sin and be the most accessible - but, frankly, easy as sin is usually rather boring to more experienced players. and jumphalf is made by more experienced players. and - of course, having developers create something that they find boring isn't going to exactly produce something with passion into it like jumphalf has.

the audacity of this post though is all kinds of wild. walking into a room telling the developers how they should make things is all sorts of wild. props on that regards, i guess?

anyways, i have no clue if talkhaus has a mod team, but i feel like if it does now's about when they should probably look at this discussion, see it ain't going anywhere but down, and tell us to move past it and focus on raocow's playthrough and the level itself. otherwise this discussion will likely just continue till the end of the hack.
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Bean
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Re: JUMP arg(1+(√(-1)))*(2/π) - Half a jump is still a jump

Postby Bean » 6 months ago

Okay. Just deleted one sarcastically insulting comment. Like I said, that's enough of that.


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