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JUMP ½ - Half a jump is still a jump

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strongbadman
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Re: JUMP (1^2)/(2^1) - Half a jump is still a jump

Post by strongbadman »

strongbadman wrote: 4 years ago World 3 is pretty big huh? Is it that much bigger than world 3, or does it just seem that way because it goes through 2 biomes, both being small, and one being a cramped forest?
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Re: JUMP (1^2)/(2^1) - Half a jump is still a jump

Post by Validon98 »

World 3 feels pretty big for certain, and I do think it does have more levels at least compared to world one? World two was also pretty big so maybe they're about the same, but yeah, part of it might just be because of all of the weird paths that exist for it.
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Re: JUMP (1^2)/(2^1) - Half a jump is still a jump

Post by Nimono »

hongry plants was...disappointing. It should've been called "caterpillar crisis" or "musical woods" instead since those were what were primarily seen- the plants eating the trees were used what, 4 times over the entire level? It barely counted as a gimmick or theme...

also I like the joke with "Quillstamp Melody".

The joke is Stickerbrush Symphony, the song that plays in the level. Sticker (as in something spiky) -> Quill, Brush (as in object that applies ink or paint) -> Stamp, Symphony -> Melody.

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Re: JUMP (1^2)/(2^1) - Half a jump is still a jump

Post by Emral »

Nimono wrote:"caterpillar crisis" or "musical woods"
pretty lame names imo, and you forget that monchers are hongry plants too.

the level is great imo, and even if its name isn't a direct reference to everything it tries, it does a good job at incorporating several ideas into a consistent package
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Re: JUMP (1^2)/(2^1) - Half a jump is still a jump

Post by FourteenthOrder »

The fact that the paths on the overworld very rarely go where I expect never fails to amuse me for whatever reason. raocow's reactions to the same experience only make it even funnier to me.
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Re: JUMP (1^2)/(2^1) - Half a jump is still a jump

Post by KobaBeach »

Nimono wrote: Brush (as in object that applies ink or paint) -> Stamp
it should honestly be stickerbush but i think it's just a typo that spread
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Re: JUMP (1^2)/(2^1) - Half a jump is still a jump

Post by Mandew »

more importantly, hongry plants keeps the pyro meme spirit alive
Enjl wrote: 4 years ago
Ryrir wrote: 4 years ago
Christopher Lloyd wrote: 4 years ago Traditionally...
Agree to disagree with you there. The VIPs (released 2006-2011) did the exact same thing that JUMPhalf is doing here. As the single most influential series of SMW romhacks out there, surely they would be part of this "tradition" as well.
Pretty sure the original "traditionally" refers to "nintend-intended". Following a different tradition is fine and all but don't be surprised at the culture shock.
I almost ran out of times plenty of times while playing Mario 3 and SMW on my first playthroughs while looking around, so I don't think it's out of place at all.
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Re: JUMP (1^2)/(2^1) - Half a jump is still a jump

Post by KobaBeach »

Timers are not meant to exist just for decoration like, for that purpose you might as well just set the Timer to 0 or scrap it entirely. Timers exist to allow some challenge to people first learning the stage, sort of to say, "you can explore the stage, but you have to manage your time".

Think of it how Sonic has timers. In the majority of Sonic stages, you get 10 minutes to explore a stage and its many gimmicks, you are encouraged to take your time, and learn the stage to later help develop a fast route through it in repeat playthroughs. Mandew's post above is a good example of this.

There is punishment in the form of a lower time bonus at the end as the time goes by and a lost life if you reach 10 minutes, but the latter is okay because there's multiple checkpoints, and most newcomers won't really be playing for score.

Super Mario World only has one checkpoint but traditional 2D Mario levels used to be much shorter and could be cleared in a minute or so. This is why a lot of recent Mario games tend to have multiple checkpoints.
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Sebby19
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Re: JUMP (1^2)/(2^1) - Half a jump is still a jump

Post by Sebby19 »

I've never liked level timers. Let me take my time and enjoy the level, dangit.
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Re: JUMP (1^2)/(2^1) - Half a jump is still a jump

Post by Ashan »

KobaBeach wrote: 4 years agoyou might as well just set the Timer to 0 or scrap it entirely.
Yes do this

Are timers not just a remnant from arcades to get kids off the machine faster so you can put more money into it? They serve no purpose in most games. If I want to set the controller down and stand in place, why can't I do that?
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Re: JUMP (1^2)/(2^1) - Half a jump is still a halfjump

Post by Awoo »

Ashan wrote: 4 years ago
KobaBeach wrote: 4 years agoyou might as well just set the Timer to 0 or scrap it entirely.
Yes do this

Are timers not just a remnant from arcades to get kids off the machine faster so you can put more money into it? They serve no purpose in most games. If I want to set the controller down and stand in place, why can't I do that?
That, or a way to make you panic forever. Kind of like the level in ASMT where you have to swim to the top super fast! Combine that with a pause that kills you in Super and you have a super troll level
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Re: JUMP (1^2)/(2^1) - Half a jump is still a jump

Post by Ditocoaf »

Timers can be fine, but a timer in a level with a midpoint often seems nonsensical. If you really do intend for the timer to be a thing, I guess you could fix it by having a shorter timer if you start from the midpoint?
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Re: JUMP (1^2)/(2^1) - Half a jump is still a jump

Post by ano0maly »

Maybe you can have a separate time limit for before & after the midpoint. So you're given enough time for the first half of the level, and collecting the midpoint boosts your time up to the allotted time for the second half (or adds that much to your timer).
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Re: JUMP (1^2)/(2^1) - Half a jump is still a halfjump

Post by Ashan »

Awoo wrote: 4 years ago That, or a way to make you panic forever. Kind of like the level in ASMT where you have to swim to the top super fast! Combine that with a pause that kills you in Super and you have a super troll level
That's an example where a timer is fine, cause it's actually part of the challenge. But in most cases it's just punishing you for not dying after the midpoint, and I think that's unintentional. I don't even think level designers put much thought into the timer at all. If they're anything like me in the few shitty levels I've made, you set it to an amount that seems to be enough to beat it + a bit extra. Or you just leave it at whatever it was by default in the base game and if it's not enough you add time.
ano0maly wrote: 4 years ago Maybe you can have a separate time limit for before & after the midpoint. So you're given enough time for the first half of the level, and collecting the midpoint boosts your time up to the allotted time for the second half (or adds that much to your timer).
Or, again, get rid of the timer entirely
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Re: JUMP (1^2)/(2^1) - Half a jump is still a jump

Post by ano0maly »

I was responding to Ditocoaf's post

not yours
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Re: JUMP (1^2)/(2^1) - Half a jump is still a jump

Post by Ashan »

I know, but my point is instead of trying to figure out how to make work a mechanic that nobody really cares about and doesn't add anything to the game, it's better to just scrap the mechanic in its entirety. I think the only reason people are fine with it is cause it's just been the standard for so long. But if it never existed in the first place, I'm sure someone suggesting "hey we should add a timer that kills the player for no reason and have it in every stage," everyone would be weirded out by the idea since there's not really a justification for it. You don't need to get the player through the level fast because it's not an arcade any more. I guess you could argue that it's for 2 player mode so the other player gets a turn, but that doesn't explain why it's also in single player mode.
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Re: JUMP (1^2)/(2^1) - Half a jump is still a jump

Post by gbreeze »

Timers were kept in traditional platforming levels because speedrunners often use the time on the smw timer as an indicator of when to perform jumps, when to do certain actions, whether they have a bp, etc. (this is not an original thought from me, it was mentioned by ft a while ago when we discussed this).

In addition, and this is a controversial thought of course, but the timer can add an additional layer of "action" to an action-oriented level. It might result in the player moving forward more often and engaging more with the level if they are subconsciously aware of the timer. Also, some levels contain setups where you must "parse" an obstacle. In a way, a tricky setup (whether action or puzzle focused) can require the player to think about their action beforehand. Too much thinking and sitting around would be punished by a tougher level designer when the goal is for you to parse the action "on the fly". Rather, if the designer's goal is for you to really be introspective, of course the timer should be cut.

The issue with the midway point and the timer is just an unfortunate side effect of super mario world itself. Not much that can be done there.

Levels with puzzles and non-traditional platforming (i.e. gimmicky stuff like.. well, we haven't actually reached such levels yet lol) have their timers removed. In addition, levels with disabled huds should have the timer removed too, but we accidentally forgot a few lol (that will be fixed in an update).

As far as the timer in Big Bubble Watchers for example, it was discussed at some point. However, people brought up the point that the low timer gave the level some additional character.
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Re: JUMP 1÷2 - Half a jump is still a jump

Post by Ryrir »

That dragon coin in Koopa Khaos gave a lot of people a lot of trouble, since refreshing the shell timer with the noteblock is definitely on the more obscure side of SMW mechanics. Maaaaybe there should have been a movie for that one? Though I definitely believe it's still possible to figure out the purpose of the baby yoshi on your own. Maybe the noteblock should have been activated by a kicked shell or something like that...

The level itself is really cool though in my opinion, it's using classical kaizo level design tropes in a non-kaizo context which always feels extremely satisfying to pull off. It's like the game is making you feel like you're a better player than you actually are, simply because completing the obstacles looks hard to pull off. Other people definitely disagree on that note though, up to the point where this level seems to be one of the more controversial ones of the entire game

(alongside a certain world 5 level and the big puzzles in the endgame).

this is getting laundromatic
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Re: JUMP 1÷2 - Half a jump is still a jump

Post by Validon98 »

That Damn Fourth Chaos Emerald Dragon Coin in Koopa Khaos took me, quite awhile to figure out. I kept thinking I needed to feed Yoshi too until I noticed what I actually needed to do with the shell, but man actually getting the shell there afterwards is quite a pain given if you lose it at all it's just gone, which has been a recurring feature of dragon coins I have hated collecting in some levels.

Also i saw you in the forest is real neat and great and I think levels like that have been the generally more fun levels to play. Also curious about the music source and all, that was a good song.
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Re: JUMP 1÷2 - Half a jump is still a jump

Post by ano0maly »

So was there something more past the goal tape?
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Re: JUMP 1÷2 - Half a jump is still a jump

Post by Emral »

My experience with Koopa Khaos is vastly different because none of the setups ever lined up because of how I play these levels. Or I would accidentally kill enemies that I would later find out are necessary to progress. The level sticks around as severely unpolished in my mind as a result.
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Re: JUMP (1^2)/(2^1) - Half a jump is still a jump

Post by BobisOnlyBob »

gbreeze wrote: 4 years ago The issue with the midway point and the timer is just an unfortunate side effect of super mario world itself. Not much that can be done there.
Super Mario 3D Land and Super Mario 3D World frequently have +50 or +100 Clocks at midpoints in longer levels for pretty much this reason. I'm pretty sure some ASM to make goal tape reset or add to the timer would be doable - has anyone tried that before?

The vanilla method would be to have a reset door/pipe at the midpoint that refreshes the timer on return. That works very well if the midpoint is on its own screen, too.
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Re: JUMP 1÷2 - Half a jump is still a jump

Post by Gardenolva »

The shell refresher in Koopa Khaos is heck confusing. Not only raocow, but to those who were watching today's episode are confused as well (idk if that was just me).

Also...
KOOPA KHAOS?!
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Re: JUMP 1÷2 - Half a jump is still a jump

Post by Kilgamayan »

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Re: JUMP 1÷2 - Half a jump is still a jump

Post by Mineyl »

I'd like to point out that an ancillary benefit of the timer is to get the player unstuck from a softlock. Softlock oversights can happen, especially in amateur game design, without adequate test play and it requires a non-zero amount of effort on the creator's part to implement an alternative solution without simply saying "just reset the console lol".
Validon98 wrote: 4 years ago Also curious about the music source and all, that was a good song.
It's one of the castle themes from Jimmy52905's (canceled) hack, Bowser Strikes Back.

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