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La-Mulana - Wishbringer

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Voltgloss
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Re: La-Mulana - Endless, Nameless

Postby Voltgloss » 6 months ago

Ditocoaf wrote: And just an y/n answer to the question, "Could I solve that puzzle without finding more items or places than I have so far?"
Yes you could solve it now.
I don't think that question/answer is accurate. The issue is it conflates two questions, which have two different answers. Here's what I think is a more accurate response, which requires reading or figuring out the first spoilered hint you provided (I've spoilered the part of the question that rely on having that answer):

"Could I

figure out which glyphs mean which numbers

without finding more items, places, or clues than I have so far?"
Yes.
"Could I solve the Endless Corridor floor 2 puzzle without finding more items, places, or clues than I have so far?"
You could solve part of it, but would need to make educated guesses at the rest.
To solve without guessing at all requires a clue that you have not seen.

"Can I access that clue now?"
It was available earlier in the game but is not available to you right now.
There is another opportunity to access it in the future but only after progressing the game elsewhere.

"What are you talking about? I'm looking for an explicit explanation of how this clue could have been available earlier, not available now, but available again later."
The clue in question comes from Mulbruk. Some of her clues are tied to overall game progression and are given out only when your internal "score" (which depends on a host of factors) is within certain ranges. The clue for the Endless Corridor floor 2 puzzle is one of them.

Right now, your internal "score" is above the first range in which she'd give that clue. So you could have received the clue earlier; but you didn't because you didn't visit Mulbruk while your score was in that range. Now your score is past that range and can't be reduced back to it.

There is another later, higher "score" range in which she'll again give that clue, but to reach it you need to make further progress elsewhere.
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Re: La-Mulana - Endless, Nameless

Postby Voltgloss » 6 months ago

Separately, I've added to the opening posts the upgraded maps that raocow reviewed yesterday (Gate of Guidance and Endless Corridor). The other upgraded maps will be added only if and after raocow reviews them in-game.
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Re: La-Mulana - Endless, Nameless

Postby KobaBeach » 6 months ago


FPzero wrote:
Parama wrote: nah we're going the pure blind route let him figure it out or suffer not knowing the solution for eternity :rao:
I just don't really agree with this sentiment considering the blind run is raocow's choice and if he wants a hint then that's his decision to make. Plus, it can just be put into a spoiler box with the warning "hey this is a hint for the thing you asked about" so he can later decide if he wants to read it or not.
this ^

please chill on policing how raocow should play the game, that's just as bad as the people who wantonly spoil things
sorry if im being rude, it's not my intention
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Re: La-Mulana - Endless, Nameless

Postby ZephyrBurst » 6 months ago

If raocow is specifically asking for a clue/hint (via text), then I think it's fine to give it to him. The gate puzzle you don't even need to spell it out, but a hint regarding the concept of it would be fine.

raocow even made a good guess. (but then immediately forgets about it)


Zummorr wrote: To answer your question
I was about to ask that myself. I don't think any other puzzles force the player to translate la-mulanese, outside of Balancing the Scales of Virtue. But if raocow brute forces that I'm calling shenanigans.
That's been brute forced many times from what I've heard.

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Re: La-Mulana - Endless, Nameless

Postby Alice » 6 months ago

And once again raocow just brute forces something rather than putting any effort into solving it. At this rate he's just going to brute force the entire rest of the game and wonder why it's being such a pain.

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Re: La-Mulana - Endless, Nameless

Postby SAJewers » 6 months ago

I mean, if he wants to play that way, let him.
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Re: La-Mulana - Endless, Nameless

Postby KobaBeach » 6 months ago

I'd still put some spoilered "this is how it's actually supposed to work lol" type clues for him to check it out later if he feels like it, maybe when he's stumped in a later puzzle that was meant to build on the experience from a previous one. AFAIK, that's not backseating is it?
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Re: La-Mulana - Endless, Nameless

Postby Cyril » 6 months ago

It's not just in this game but the sequel as well, has a numbers puzzle that's much, much harder to brute force & you have to solve it three different ways on top of that. if he does eventually play the sequel, which he also would be doing completely blind, spoiling the puzzle here would also impact that

i've honestly never played a video game in my life

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Re: La-Mulana - Endless, Nameless

Postby FPzero » 6 months ago

Parama wrote:

It's not just in this game but the sequel as well, has a numbers puzzle that's much, much harder to brute force & you have to solve it three different ways on top of that. if he does eventually play the sequel, which he also would be doing completely blind, spoiling the puzzle here would also impact that

Except I'd argue that the people playing the sequel have likely played the first game and therefore would have probably understood going in that the glyphs have meaning, something the devs probably expected as well. I'm not even sure which puzzle you're referring to, unless it's in the last 10% of the game that I haven't yet beaten. My playthrough of the game derailed and I have to go finish it some day.[/spoiler]


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Re: La-Mulana - Endless, Nameless

Postby Ditocoaf » 6 months ago

Voltgloss wrote:
I don't think that question/answer is accurate.
Fair enough. I was trying to be vague enough that he could check my second question without checking my first, and vice versa, so possibly ended up imprecise.

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Re: La-Mulana - Endless, Nameless

Postby Voltgloss » 6 months ago

FPzero wrote:

I'm not even sure which puzzle you're referring to, unless it's in the last 10% of the game that I haven't yet beaten. My playthrough of the game derailed and I have to go finish it some day.

Spoiler for the sequel:
Parama's talking about following the Dark Lord's Footprints.
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Re: La-Mulana - Endless, Nameless

Postby Cyril » 6 months ago

tbh when I played the sequel I had totally forgotten

the numbering system

and had to figure it out again and I'm glad I did too

I still haven't seen any compelling argument for why this should be spoiled for raocow (and it is still a spoiler, no matter what you argue) but ultimately it's his decision anyways
i've honestly never played a video game in my life

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Re: La-Mulana - Endless, Nameless

Postby Arctangent » 6 months ago

Parama wrote: I still haven't seen any compelling argument for why this should be spoiled for raocow (and it is still a spoiler, no matter what you argue) but ultimately it's his decision anyways
i mean, if he

doesn't brute force the scale puzzle

and plays the sequel immediately after this, he'll have to use one of this mib memory flasher thingies on himself to not "spoil" this for himself anyway

not to mention i don't think anyone in here is bringing it outside of spoiler tags anyway, so even if he doesn't ... it's not like he didn't intentionally spoil himself, anyhow

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Re: La-Mulana - Endless, Nameless

Postby Cyril » 6 months ago

That's a big If

And I don't think he's playing LM2 straightaway, it's not even on the schedule but I'd guess it'll be added eventually

Still think it's worth figuring out for himself
i've honestly never played a video game in my life

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Re: La-Mulana - Endless, Nameless

Postby ano0maly » 6 months ago

As others mentioned, he's asking for a hint, isn't he? Or is that not the case? I don't see why it needs to be withheld if that's the case.
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Voltgloss
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Re: La-Mulana - Endless, Nameless

Postby Voltgloss » 6 months ago

ano0maly wrote: As others mentioned, he's asking for a hint, isn't he? Or is that not the case? I don't see why it needs to be withheld if that's the case.
The issue, summarized:

Giving raocow the hint he requests will inadvertently also give him a hint for future puzzles in both this game and the sequel. raocow presumably thinks he's asking only for a hint on a puzzle already completed. But he's actually not. Would he still want this hint, if he knew that it's a part-spoiler for future puzzles in both this game and the sequel? That's what folks are grappling with.

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Re: La-Mulana - Endless, Nameless

Postby FPzero » 6 months ago

Voltgloss wrote:
ano0maly wrote: As others mentioned, he's asking for a hint, isn't he? Or is that not the case? I don't see why it needs to be withheld if that's the case.
The issue, summarized:

Giving raocow the hint he requests will inadvertently also give him a hint for future puzzles in both this game and the sequel. raocow presumably thinks he's asking only for a hint on a puzzle already completed. But he's actually not. Would he still want this hint, if he knew that it's a part-spoiler for future puzzles in both this game and the sequel? That's what folks are grappling with.

How do you even decipher the number glyphs in the sequel if you don't know them from LM1? There's no way to turn on and off the glyph reader translation software if I remember correctly. Maybe the sigils mention the numbers on them but I genuinely don't remember learning the numbers from playing the game.

Also maybe it's just me but it feels a little silly for us to gatekeep a hint just because it's a small part of a large puzzle in the sequel. We don't know when he'll play eventually play it, and we don't know how much of the first game he'll retain in his memory by that time. The footprints puzzle is difficult, but knowing the numbers for it is just one part of the complicated puzzle. Like, it took me ages to solve that puzzle and knowing the numbers wasn't the part I got stuck on.


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Re: La-Mulana - Endless, Nameless

Postby Voltgloss » 6 months ago

FPzero wrote:

How do you even decipher the number glyphs in the sequel if you don't know them from LM1?

Spoiler for the sequel:

Mulbruk can give you that information in LM2 as well.

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Re: La-Mulana - Endless, Nameless

Postby ZephyrBurst » 6 months ago

Since he's past the puzzle that 'technically' requires it, I don't see an issue with giving him, at the surface level, what he missed about it. It's getting him up to where he should be on the game's world.

I find it absolutely bullshit that the sigils being numbers is some big spoiler, fuck that noise. Getting past this puzzle assumes you then know about that, raocow asked about it, there's no point keeping that from him. Knowing about this also re-contextualizes the game in some way and I think increases overall enjoyment because there's a bigger consistency in the world itself. Not in a puzzle spoiler way, but in world building and lore.


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Re: La-Mulana - Endless, Nameless

Postby SAJewers » 6 months ago

Voltgloss wrote:
ano0maly wrote: As others mentioned, he's asking for a hint, isn't he? Or is that not the case? I don't see why it needs to be withheld if that's the case.
The issue, summarized:

Giving raocow the hint he requests will inadvertently also give him a hint for future puzzles in both this game and the sequel. raocow presumably thinks he's asking only for a hint on a puzzle already completed. But he's actually not. Would he still want this hint, if he knew that it's a part-spoiler for future puzzles in both this game and the sequel? That's what folks are grappling with.

If he wants the solution spoiled for him, spoil it for him. It's his LP, and it's his perogative to request the answer; it's shouldn't be on us to gatekeep it from him.

If you're that concerned about the answer spoiling another puzzle, put the answer in a spoiler tag and note that said answer will almost certainly be part of another puzzle down the line. If he still wants to read the answer, tht's his choice.

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Re: La-Mulana - One Eye Open

Postby Zinfandel » 6 months ago

Okay, but.

A La-Mulana Thing when?

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Re: La-Mulana - Endless, Nameless

Postby maou shoujo » 6 months ago

FPzero wrote: In reference to the gate puzzle (not the solution, future spoilers):
Aside from the final piece of the puzzle for the Mace where you need to know Lemeza's weight, is there any other part of the game that relies on him knowing La-Mulanese numbering? Because I figured this was the stumbling block that'd make him realize it, forgetting his tendency to brute force stuff until it works.

Considering this is the puzzle that's supposed to make you realize the glyphs are numbers, I feel like I disagree with Parama in not wanting to tell or hint to raocow what he's missing about it the puzzle. He's asking for a hint for once, and if this is critical knowledge he was supposed to know already, I don't see why it would hurt to give a slight hint that might push him in the right direction.
IIRC, I believe
number glyphs as a puzzle also show up in Hell Temple. At the very least, the rooms ARE numbered, and I think some puzzles refer to room numbers, but you could just count manually. That said, I'm not sure if raocow will do Hell Temple, or even attempt to find it without spoilers.
ZephyrBurst wrote: That's been brute forced many times from what I've heard.
Not only can that puzzle be brute forced, I did it unintentionally, and twice, in both Classic and Remake.
In Classic I reached the Scales of Virtue, had no idea what I was doing, and did exactly the right thing. Turns out the movements needed are very simple. The last step is unintuitive if you know the actual solution, but can still easily be done by accident.

In Remake I was aware of how it would work this time, only when I reached it I realized I was still missing some information. I figured "Well, they probably changed it so people who know the Classic version don't do it trivially". So I tried something slightly different, and uhh?? that actually worked????

IIRC there are 8 pieces at every step including the last one, and 2 choices per step. So if you were to guess completely at random, you'd have a 1/256 chance of solving it.
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Re: La-Mulana - One Eye Open

Postby Sebby19 » 6 months ago

I'm kinda rolling my eyes at the spoiler debate above. And for once, I'm not in the thick of it. :rao:

However

should we advise him not to avoid Shrine of the Mother? Furthermore, should we explicitly tell him that there are potential lost forever items in there? I think the average gamer would appreciate the warning, especially if the game won't do it for you.



And speaking of

the scale puzzle

, isn't that kind of hard to brute force, since you only have two real shots at it? I agree that it's possible to solve it by accident/luck, like Maou Shoujo, but my definition of 'brute force' is trying every combination until you succeed.
Unless rao brute forces by save scumming, I guess.
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Re: La-Mulana - One Eye Open

Postby repairmanman » 6 months ago

Wow, YT comments are the most passive aggressive I've ever seen.

Fun mythology bit: that one eyed monster is called backbeard, and he comes from a manga called "GeGeGe no Kitarō"
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Re: La-Mulana - One Eye Open

Postby ZephyrBurst » 6 months ago

Sebby.

No, we shouldn't tell him about that. A potential item missed there is just part of the game and that is only missable waaay down the road. Not really anything to worry about. And I'm on the, only give clues/hints when raocow specifically asks for them, thing.



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