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La-Mulana - Wishbringer

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Sebby19
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Re: La-Mulana - their angelical understanding

Post by Sebby19 »

Zummorr wrote: 4 years ago"Why should a player come to the conclusion that they need information outside the game for their puzzle solving."
Well, in La-Mulana's case, the original game did this too. As mentioned before, the 'gate' puzzle that raocow brute forced in the Endless Corridor had a different solution. Your only hint to the original puzzle was in the manual. And the manual's hint was disguised as some random trivia about

the end of the Mayan calender

.

Outside La-Muluna, there is the concept of 'feelies', famous example being Star tropics. Though those were primarily a form of copy protection, first.

I would also argue that manuals are not 'outside the game', but that's another convo for another day.
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Re: La-Mulana - their angelical understanding

Post by Sebby19 »

Also, how can one screw up getting the Angel Shield puzzle? Looked straight forward to me, and there was no warning like the last two puzzles on that caliber.
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Re: La-Mulana - their angelical understanding

Post by Voltgloss »

Zummorr, am I correct that:
your point isn't so much about the software combos for spawning a fairy of the player's choice (which combos are never required to be used, and which fairy "selection" raocow already figured out how to do the "slow way"), but is really about the "ruins arrangement" aspect of the mantra puzzle? I understand your argument a lot more as applied to that than about the fairy combo. I have further thoughts on this subject re: the mantra puzzle, but would like to wait until raocow's LP actually reaches that puzzle to raise those points.

(Incidentally if any Patapons actually thought "I'll vote for sharing the fairy combos with raocow so he has to read the manual" I'm sure they were disappointed that I simply posted an excerpt of the partial chart from the manual instead of, y'know, just telling raocow to read the manual)

Sebby19 wrote: Also, how can one screw up getting the Angel Shield puzzle? Looked straight forward to me, and there was no warning like the last two puzzles on that caliber.
Explanation:
You get either the left or the right pedestal in that room depending on how many of Tiamat's children are left alive. An even number gets you one pedestal. An odd number gets you the other. As raocow showed, you need to put weights on both pedestals to make a third one appear, which reveals the shield.

But if you have defeated ALL of Tiamat's children, then neither pedestal appears. So, if you defeat all of the subbosses before placing weights on both the "even" and the "odd" pedestals, you can no longer open the capsule in that room. Meaning you need to obtain the Angel Shield another way after that, as it's required to get the Vessel.
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Re: La-Mulana - their angelical understanding

Post by Alice »

Voltgloss wrote: 4 years ago

And it's not so "all but" as suggested. One of the Patapons has figured out a repeatable method for damage boosting up there post-sub-boss and is ready to share *if* that is needed.

Damage boosting off one of the bat/demon things in the room? If that's the case then I personally find that significantly easier than the intended method. Though both methods are still tedious and annoying.

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Re: La-Mulana - their angelical understanding

Post by repairmanman »

Cyril wrote: 4 years ago

i'm just remembering... did raocow ever resolve the upside-down door in the gate of illusion? i don't think anything else is left there except specifically that, but i don't remember if he ever fixed it or not

he still needs to get the fairy clothes too. But don't tell him about the orb, he missed the map in sun town, he can miss an orb here
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Re: La-Mulana - their angelical understanding

Post by Zummorr »

Voltgloss wrote: 4 years ago Zummorr, am I correct that:
your point isn't so much about the software combos for spawning a fairy of the player's choice (which combos are never required to be used, and which fairy "selection" raocow already figured out how to do the "slow way"), but is really about the "ruins arrangement" aspect of the mantra puzzle? I understand your argument a lot more as applied to that than about the fairy combo. I have further thoughts on this subject re: the mantra puzzle, but would like to wait until raocow's LP actually reaches that puzzle to raise those points.

(Incidentally if any Patapons actually thought "I'll vote for sharing the fairy combos with raocow so he has to read the manual" I'm sure they were disappointed that I simply posted an excerpt of the partial chart from the manual instead of, y'know, just telling raocow to read the manual)

Yes you are correct.
I don't like setting the precedent that information that is in the manual is free to spoil, MANY people including myself have expressed that raocow read the thing. It has been made easily available to him and people aren't just suggesting he read it for nothing.

I don't like that it was decided to spoon feed him the information purely based on convenience. I'll ignore the issues of the patapon being separated from this thread and deciding things. He's had plenty of access to the manual and plenty of of encouragement to read it.

The manual is required for the mantra puzzle's 'logic" and it also has useful software combination information. It feels very unfair that this is the only source of information regarding the ruins arrangement. I also don't like that such information is delivered in a deliberately Engrish manual that is comedic in tone.

I'm well aware of games like Metal Gear Solid and King's Quest doing similar things back in the day, but those games came in physical boxes. Heck even Earthbound was sold WITH a strategy guide in tow and difficulty is how many games sold strategy guides. Times change though, most games on steam don't even have manuals and nothing in game suggests you should look at the manual, or notes that there is a manual.
It wasn't until long after I beat that game that I was even made aware of the manual's existence.

Will the whole hint of the ruins arrangement make a difference? No, raocow will just sing the correct mantra in every backside room just like I did and just like a lot of players did.

As a side-note, the Wiiware manual lacks all information regarding the ruin's arrangement and software combinations. I guess Wii players just get boned in this regard.
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Re: La-Mulana - their angelical understanding

Post by ztarwuff »

Alice wrote:
Voltgloss wrote: 4 years ago

And it's not so "all but" as suggested. One of the Patapons has figured out a repeatable method for damage boosting up there post-sub-boss and is ready to share *if* that is needed.

Damage boosting off one of the bat/demon things in the room? If that's the case then I personally find that significantly easier than the intended method. Though both methods are still tedious and annoying.

Oh that. I'm stuck on that part, because I find it really easy to get up there using the first method, but I really suck at manouevring through the last screen. At the rate I'm playing, raocow will pass me by (though this has always been the case. raocow is infinitely better at videogames than me).
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Re: La-Mulana - Not Just An Ordinary Ballerina

Post by Lostsoldier20 »

Jeeze they even made the Pochette Key have like, 3 extra steps.

Wow... did they REALLY change that final life gem puzzle.... and in all the worst ways...

In the original the boss was an entire platform so getting to this room was way easier. The room itself... here lemme just attach a picture because this is the actual worst change in a puzzle. I lost a lot of good will for the remake with seeing this puzzle.
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evil.png (999.58 KiB) Viewed 3591 times
Same puzzle, but they somehow made it even worse. Especially since the lamp also auto refreshed. Would be easier to just reload save, but still...
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Re: La-Mulana - Not Just An Ordinary Ballerina

Post by Draexzhan »

The irony with that last Sacred Orb is it actually seems much more difficult to get to that room while the miniboss is still alive than after, provided you know what you're doing..
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Re: La-Mulana - Not Just An Ordinary Ballerina

Post by FPzero »

Man, I keep watching these videos, hoping that raocow will just walk a little further left into the opening areas of the Chamber of Extinction and see the murals have shown up. Every time I'm disappointed. There isn't even anything to point out; he just hasn't walked back into those rooms on camera.

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Re: La-Mulana - Not Just An Ordinary Ballerina

Post by Validon98 »

I never bothered getting that orb when I played, because I beat the miniboss and then could never do the damage boost that you could do in order to get back up there. There's a reason why the randomizer for this game just has a "put a ladder in that room so you can just climb up there without shenanigans" option, in case something gets put up in that chest.

Also Skanda is great and will forever be a goofy sandman person.
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Re: La-Mulana - Not Just An Ordinary Ballerina

Post by Crow »

congrats on getting the most annoying thing in the entire game!

now if only raocow looks at his map and sees the secret room in the corridor he hasn't been to,,,

unfortunately the puzzle involved with doing so is also non-obvious

i've honestly never played a video game in my life
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Re: La-Mulana - Not Just An Ordinary Ballerina

Post by Voltgloss »

Yet more excellent progress today. Especially getting that last Sacred Orb. Man, completing that challenge is exactly as difficult as it looks.
FPzero wrote: 4 years ago

Man, I keep watching these videos, hoping that raocow will just walk a little further left into the opening areas of the Chamber of Extinction and see the murals have shown up. Every time I'm disappointed. There isn't even anything to point out; he just hasn't walked back into those rooms on camera.

If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, it's not activated yet.

If you're referring to the mural where raocow needs to use the Pochette Key, that won't appear until after he goes inside the "large crucifix" in the Chamber of Birth (and from there, warps to the same crucifix in the Chamber of Extinction and uses a pedestal there).

Last edited by Voltgloss 4 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: La-Mulana - Not Just An Ordinary Ballerina

Post by FPzero »

Voltgloss wrote: 4 years ago Yet more excellent progress today. Especially getting that last Sacred Orb. Man, completing that challenge is exactly as difficult as it looks.
FPzero wrote: 4 years ago

Man, I keep watching these videos, hoping that raocow will just walk a little further left into the opening areas of the Chamber of Extinction and see the murals have shown up. Every time I'm disappointed. There isn't even anything to point out; he just hasn't walked back into those rooms on camera.

If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, it's not activated yet.

If you're referring to the mural where raocow needs to use the Pochette Key, that won't appear until after he goes inside the "large crucifix" in the Chamber of Birth (and from there, warps to the same crucifix in the Chamber of Extinction and uses a pedestal there).]

I forgot that he had to do that first! Although that begs the question of how he gets into the murals in the first place. I thought it was accessed through the crucifix in the chamber of birth but I can't recall.

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Re: La-Mulana - Not Just An Ordinary Ballerina

Post by Arctangent »

352 is just 32 x 11

1 sacred orb found in the surface, 9 sacred orbs found one each per field pair, and 1 regular ol' lemeza body that's anything but sacred
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Re: La-Mulana - Not Just An Ordinary Ballerina

Post by Kleetus »

The mini boss in the Chamber of Birth is called Skanda. The Chamber of Birth has some Hindu theming. There is a Hindu deity named Skanda. There is a Mahayana Bodhisattva named Skanda who may or may not be related. In Japan, Bodhisattva Skanda is sometimes associated with running fast. La-Mulana Skanda has a ridiculous walk cycle.
This is the entire story behind the characters name, it draws no inspiration from either above mentioned Skanda aside from the running thing. The developers just wanted a boss who ran silly, and I am OK with this.

I should have posted this a while ago, but I do not remember the Chamber of Birth being this annoying. It's like my memory has blocked it.
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Re: La-Mulana - Not Just An Ordinary Ballerina

Post by Sebby19 »

I remember.
Meanwhile, Dimensional Corridor has the hardest platfoming challenge in the main game. Pick your poison.

But yeah, it may be possible that raocow will fight Tiamat tomorrow, the toughest and most powerful Gaurdian of them all. Remember, it's been mentioned before that she can almost rival Mother, and made the Endless and Dimensional Corridors swap places. And then there is the shenanigins of all her children, and inability to warp out.

Speaking of non-warping, I'm not sure if they kept this for the remake, but that big spike ceiling trap in the Chamber of Birth would also not let you warp out once triggered in the original version. I wish warping was disabled when you approached the map for Temple of the Sun.
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Re: La-Mulana - Not Just An Ordinary Ballerina

Post by Alice »

FPzero wrote: 4 years ago

I forgot that he had to do that first! Although that begs the question of how he gets into the murals in the first place. I thought it was accessed through the crucifix in the chamber of birth but I can't recall.

He's attacked, but not noticed, a breakable wall in the Chamber of Birth above the crucifix like three times now. Every single time his insistence on using the katana 99% of the time caused him to get zapped in the process, distracting him, though because the floor under him is protected. If he'd been using any weapon other than the katana or knife then he probably would have found it by now.

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Re: La-Mulana - Not Just An Ordinary Ballerina

Post by Crow »

yep, that^
i've honestly never played a video game in my life
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Re: La-Mulana - Not Just An Ordinary Ballerina

Post by ztarwuff »

I have no idea why raocow keeps using the katana when he's consistently complaining about it.
Stupid elephants
You're really awkward to hit by the way.
Also, I'd like to congratulate raocow on getting that sacred orb. That's the part I'm stuck at. I've got the

right software combination

to make it easier, but man, it's so frustrating that I'm really put off by it.

By the way, about those

software combinations

, I looked them up, but how exactly are you expected to know how they work? Just try them out randomly and just notice what happens when you have them on whilst playing?
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Re: La-Mulana - Not Just An Ordinary Ballerina

Post by Chirei »

ztarwuff wrote: 4 years ago By the way, about those

software combinations

, I looked them up, but how exactly are you expected to know how they work? Just try them out randomly and just notice what happens when you have them on whilst playing?
I think they're all in the manual for the game, which you can find in a .pdf online.
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Re: La-Mulana - Not Just An Ordinary Ballerina

Post by Sebby19 »

I don't think the original's manual told you anything about it's rom combinations, so you did have to figure them out on your own (especially since a lot of roms didn't do anything).

I think there was one combination that did different things depending on the order you put them in, the only ones to do so.
The 1st combo would drain your health, while the reverse made Lemeza a one-hit point wonder.
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Re: La-Mulana - Not Just An Ordinary Ballerina

Post by Lostsoldier20 »

Sebby19 wrote: 4 years ago I don't think the original's manual told you anything about it's rom combinations, so you did have to figure them out on your own (especially since a lot of roms didn't do anything).
It did. This is the page. It's only like, a quarter filled in so a ton of experimentation was required... if you could even figure out any of it since "increased weapon damage" is impossible to "see" unless you attack an enemy that normally took 2 hits, but it then took 1. Fairies are only easy because their software itself is in the combo.
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The issue in itself was finding a rom. As mentioned before, near required ROM combos like Rear Teleports... weren't in shops. Antarctic Adventure was 2 blue pixels on the floor. Comic Bakery a semi-out of place background object. I still don't have the advanced map because of this kinda thing
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Re: La-Mulana - Not Just An Ordinary Ballerina

Post by FPzero »

Alice wrote: 4 years ago
FPzero wrote: 4 years ago

I forgot that he had to do that first! Although that begs the question of how he gets into the murals in the first place. I thought it was accessed through the crucifix in the chamber of birth but I can't recall.

He's attacked, but not noticed, a breakable wall in the Chamber of Birth above the crucifix like three times now. Every single time his insistence on using the katana 99% of the time caused him to get zapped in the process, distracting him, though because the floor under him is protected. If he'd been using any weapon other than the katana or knife then he probably would have found it by now.

*forehead slapping emote*

Well I would say we're going to be here a while in that case, but he's been surprisingly good at proving me wrong in the past whenever I started to think that way so maybe we'll get lucky.
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Re: La-Mulana - Not Just An Ordinary Ballerina

Post by maou shoujo »

Lostsoldier20 wrote: 4 years ago Jeeze they even made the Pochette Key have like, 3 extra steps.

Wow... did they REALLY change that final life gem puzzle.... and in all the worst ways...

In the original the boss was an entire platform so getting to this room was way easier. The room itself... here lemme just attach a picture because this is the actual worst change in a puzzle. I lost a lot of good will for the remake with seeing this puzzle.
evil.png
Same puzzle, but they somehow made it even worse. Especially since the lamp also auto refreshed. Would be easier to just reload save, but still...
Honestly I hated Classic's version of this puzzle even more for the hard requirement of time stopping the block in midair. The lamp auto-recharged yes, but every time you missed it was a couple minutes' wait with no indication when it was ready again. Remake lets you save at grail tablets, so if you mess up it's faster to just reload and go back up there. Furthermore Remake retains the falling object with the pot, but now there's a floor underneath it and you can just damage boost to get on it.

Remake does add the extra spikes on top, and that jump is incredibly precise, but it's also possible to jump underneath and then grapple off of the wall. raocow ALMOST did the alternate solution in his video, but barely missed it, and then got the intended jump on the very next try. I was shocked he made it, I fully expected him to go back and try the grapple until he got it.

I hate the original's version because the time stop is super precise and I never got in the same spot consistently. I don't mind the remake's version because each step of the puzzle has two solutions, and using the alternate methods I can get it every time.

PS: If you ever play La-Mulana Randomizer, Rando adds an extra ladder to the miniboss's room such that the treasure room is always accessible. Again that makes it so much easier than it used to be.
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