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La-Mulana - Wishbringer

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Re: La-Mulana - All Things Devours

Post by Alice »

Voltgloss wrote: 4 years agoMajor spoilers for the sequel:

There is only one area in the sequel inspired by Hell Temple, and it was made much easier than the original. Including the spike drop, thanks to vertical scrolling allowing you to get enemies out of the way first before making the drop (without them respawning) and no hateful fireball horse.

I've heard they've fixed it in a later update but that bullshit spike room was insufferable when I reached it. If you fail the room then you have to fight a miniboss and not a simple one. (The wolf dude from Ragnarok whose name I seem to randomly space every freaking time I talk about the game for some reason... Edit: Fenrir. I don't know why I can never remember his name when I'm thinking of the game's boss.) And at that point in time it would respawn every single time you failed. It's actually the entire reason I dropped the game when I did.

Otherwise though Zephyr is mostly on the right track. The constant upgrading of enemies largely made most upgrades feel utterly pointless. Upgrades are supposed to make it easier to get around but due to the constant upgrades of enemies in a given area, it very rarely actually felt like that. Also there's a lot of traps whose only purpose is simply to serve as a gotcha moment. They may or may not drop you into spikes but they're placed in the most likely place you're going to land a jump and will drop you down into another screen or something forcing you to take a detour. And they're common enough that keeping track of them is a pain in the ass.

By themselves this wouldn't be a huge issue but between the enemy spam and the gotcha traps it makes navigating around a very obnoxious task. Especially when you've just solved a puzzle after re-exploring the entire ruins only to immediately get stuck again having to re-explore the entire ruins one more time. It really doesn't give you time to think or anything. For the most part a given area should only be such a pain the first time through it. Afterwards it should be easier. And while that is technically true here for the most part, the other issues (the annoying gotcha traps and adding more and more enemies throughout the game) just end up making it feel far more tedious.
ZephyrBurst wrote:

I've seen this reasoning before about the sequel and it's almost always about the mid to late game enemy spam. It definitely could use slightly less enemy spawns.

The other are the acrobatics required in the game, which I feel are a natural occurrence of having better control of the character. Other than one segment of Icefire that you can cheese past anyway, it all felt acceptable.

For the most part while I didn't enjoy Icefire Treetop very much at all, I thought that area was largely fine. Once you get the ice shoes that part becomes a nonissue. If I were to complain about anything in that field it'd be the swinging blocks (because of enemies being placed in the single most infuriating possible spots so trying to navigate those rooms is very tedious) and the poison lava which starts showing up basically the moment you finally nullify normal lava making the ice cape feel completely pointless. (Same issue with the scalespehere and ice water but that's a lesser issue since it's nowhere near as dangerous as poison lava.)

And just to be clear, I'm not just shitting on the game. La-Mulana, despite having its own flaws, is still one of my favorite games ever. And other than the bullshit spike room clone form Hell Temple (and one glossary entry I got permanently locked out from) I 100%ed La-Mulana 2 before I dropped it. I only even dropped it a few rooms before the end of the game too. After the spike room there's like 2-3 largely empty rooms, a save iirc, and then the final boss. So despite all my frustrations with the sequel I still tolerated all the bullshit basically until the very end which is vastly more than I would tolerate from just about any other game.

It just really felt like the devs ended up missing what made La-Mulana fun and, especially with theming the entire final area after it, ended up coming across like they took the most frustrating parts of La-Mulana as the biggest inspirations for the second game. (With the added downside of Hell Temple at least being optional while Spiral Hell is required.) Once I got more than like 2-3 hours into the game I just left every single game session feeling frustrated and like I'd accomplished nothing regardless of whether I'd made any progress rather than enjoying the game at all.
Whoops, wrote an essay, lol.
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Re: La-Mulana - Conan Kill Everything

Post by Crow »

welcome to the dimensional corridor!

:)
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Re: La-Mulana - Conan Kill Everything

Post by Voltgloss »

Yet more excellent progress today. And, as always, glad that the notes have been of help.

The philosopher sigil I recorded in the notes, that you saw in the Tower of Ruin, was a sigil by the statue with the vase. Turns out it disappears completely after you reveal the statue, which raocow correctly realized was because he killed the invisible enemies elsewhere in the Tower of Ruin using the Lamp of Time. (The room with those invisible enemies has a philosopher sigil as well; that's another clue linking the two.)

I've updated the list of "ancient La-Mulanese tablets not yet translated" in the notes. There is a single comprehensive list in the second post; they're also marked on the respective maps.

My preferred method for dealing with Mushnahhu (the Dimensional Corridor sub-boss that is the hollow ball that spawns a bunch of flying snakes) is to stand

on the bottom floor, halfway between the ball and the wall to the left. You might get hit when the snakes first erupt from the ball, but once the snakes settle into a pattern none of them will hit you there - and you can chop them with the Axe as they pass overhead.



"Ridley" (that we saw at the end of today's video) is my personal most hated of all the Dimensional Corridor sub-bosses.

Both because he spends much of the fight invulnerable, and because I don't think it's intuitive at all how to deal with his vertical column of purple wind attack.

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Re: La-Mulana - Conan Kill Everything

Post by Arctangent »

oh damn, rao's actually using his subweapons for once

maybe he'll like, start using more than one to adapt to the situation or to realize one works better than the one he's currently using
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Re: La-Mulana - Conan Kill Everything. Conan Mean

Post by Awoo »

raocow killed a awoo :ehh:
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Re: La-Mulana - Conan Kill Everything

Post by Lostsoldier20 »

Whoa I exist, what? So I wanted to replay the original because of rao's playthrough and over the last week I blitzed to, and past where rao is. Only Guardians I've not killed are Twin and Tiamat. Some things are interesting, others, painful.

My thoughts on the weight puzzle: (spoils obvs)
So in the original there is no ancient La-mulanese so you can get the solution very early on. One half, the Weights of the Souls, are hidden in the Temple of the Moon. The colors of the souls, are hidden in the Chamber of Extinction. But you don't need them because the weights come out in order, Joy, Eloquence, etc. Long as you have the weights, you're good. It's not even locked by the sages. If Tower wasn't locked for a very long time, you could beeline to the Temple of the Sun, get into the Moon, find the tablet there, head into the deepest part of Extinction, get that part, and head on to get your Flail.

Getting to the puzzle itself, the tablet that warns you that it's a 1 shot, is right next to the ladder leading to the puzzle. It doesn't explicitly state it, but it warns you not to go up until you know the weights of the Soul. The doors also lock after you enter, immediately implying it's 1 shot nature if you didn't get the hint. You know to reload, now. Plus with the stricter saving, you probably save before every trip into everything. Also, in the original you didn't use weights to choose sides. You just pushed the jewels like they were blocks.

Basically, it really should warn you better...
General thoughts: (only spoilers for the original, if you have no intent of playing the original and have been watching raocow play the remake, nothing is lost)
EXP is way easier. All enemies give exp on kill, not picking up an orb. You kill an enemy, you are guaranteed exp.The hotsprings is super nice because you can stock up on exp before going into a hard area, and have full HP. If you plan things right, you have two HP bars. In the original, you reloaded saves to regain HP. It was also locked a purchase for 10 coins. It also took another 120 coins to start researching tablets.

Speaking of tablets, a LOT moved. The grail points especially. Twin Labyrinth has both at the top, rather than the bottom. This essentially makes the grail points the "start" with the remake grails being towards the end. Tower of the Goddess is also on the middle tower, not the top right. So until you unlock the shortcuts in Confusion Gate (attack the head in the room with the bird for the flywheel puzzle) or Graveyard (get the bombs) you have to use the awful wall cling controls to climb the tower every time you fall, or have to leave. I had to do the jump puzzle for the Confusion Gate shortcut like 6 times because I fell 3 times from the bird, and 2 or 3 trying to reach the head. Yeah, it's closer to Chamber of Birth, but falling is easy... which also the plane subbosses respawn constantly.

There are a LOT of added puzzles in the Remake. Like, the Crystal Skull IS the Dimensional Key unless I have mistaken something. Many of the ROM puzzles in the original became money chests, or normal puzzles that are required. Like, Neptun's navel was just for a ROM. Now you need to know it to get up to that ladder with the Crystal Skull bit or whatever. And Eden wasn't even a concept in the original! The Confusion Gate is the Confusion Gate no matter what. That puzzle with the 5 chests? A map. Those pedestals also don't have a puzzle to make them appear, they just casually exist normally!

On the topic of ROM puzzles, the ROM system is absolute garbage. Like, it balances how relatively easier the game is in terms of how powerful you are compared to the fancier remake enemies, but you can only equip 2 roms at once.... So let's say you're being me trying to do a Key Fairy unlock. Let's say Gate of Time (which is Maze of Gallious I think, and there's no puzzle reset fairy). I have to put on Contra and the other one I forgot the name of to guarantee a Key. But then I want to teleport to the backside. I have to put on Antarctic Adventures and Comic Bakery. This is 4 rom selections, where here in the remake, you can throw on like, 7 or 8 with the given rom space. But then I wanna read Tablets. Gotta do another ROM change. Now see the map, and the advanced map! 2 more changes. ROMs also aren't big shiny items. Antarctic Adventures is 2 blue pixels sitting next to a ladder you have to observe with your Scanner. Comic Bakery has no visual tell aside from "this background looks funny."

Tower of Ruin had NONE of the moving crush traps. The place is so bland in the original. It's still dangerous, but the mechanisms make it far more interesting. Also, Skarmory is way easier. He just flies back and forth at the top of the screen, meaning you can just spam whip when he flies over to you.

Farming for items is weird. There are many pots that, upon every reload of the game, become guaranteed coin/item drops. Need money? Follow this specific path and break these 10 pots for 100 money. Need Weights? Go to the 4th floor of the Infinite Corridor with like, 10 pots in one room that are all guaranteed weight drops. Oh, and ammo is SO COMMON! Especially when you know the guaranteed respawn comments. I had like, 100 shurikens before I finished exploring the Guidance Gate. So many enemy drops... So many per drop from pots... After a point you just start spamming them just to get stuff done with/burn bosses super fast. I think all 6 bosses I killed, I only spammed sub weapons. Baphomet over in Twin I know you can spam too, and Tiamat I'm sure too.

Also, notice how raocow double jumps when falling? Yeah... you can only double jump on the way up. Moment you hit your peak, you lose the double jump. You got so much extra movability

And finally, Dimensional Corridor is a LOT easier in the original. Not only are they far less fancy of fights, they hurt a lot less, give far more exp, and they melt no matter what weapon you use. There was never points of no return either. You could fight a single boss, leave, save, reload, and come back with full HP.
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Re: La-Mulana - Conan Kill Everything

Post by Sebby19 »

A lot of those observations you made in the 2nd spoiler, regarding changes between the remake and classic games, have already been mentioned by us throughout the topic. But, thanks to you, we now have most of them in one nice spot! Thanks!
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Re: La-Mulana - Conan Kill Everything

Post by Lostsoldier20 »

I figured as much, but it was midnight and I sure didn't have time to read it all at that specific moment, before I fell into the endless void of sleep. Plus, they were my personal noteworthy observations that I'm sure one or two wouldn't have been gone over for reason of being too minor or else.

Also another one is the grail point in Chamber of Birth. The old Grail was in the upper half.

Welp, time to read 36 pages of stuff

Added thoughts from reading the entire topic:
Weights are NOT harder to get for me. I only bought weights one time and that was for figuring out the Gate of Illusion puzzle with 6 pedestals that you have to figure out the correct order. Otherwise I had always below 10 weights... but enough to progress. Maybe just got lucky with RNG? Or maybe my constant save heals farmed me up a lot. raocow constantly went to the spring to heal, which is no different to a save load in MSX LM.

I actually COULDN'T use sub weapons on Sakit. Shurikens had no effect, so I HAD to whip him. And as mentioned, no second form. Also, the "getting up in his grill" was no less dangerous with the knife than the whip. The Quick Kill is probably the safer way to fight Sakit.

You DID have to hit the sun in the original to reach the moon... with the Flares. The other weapons did nothing.

Mulbruk doesn't exist in original, as mentioned. Xelpud also doesn't do the hold item hint thing, because they're all passive items in the original. I feel like that's half of why they're sub-items now, not just for more false complexity/actual extending of some puzzles. That and the scanner being a sub WEAPON was stupidly annoying if you are exploring a new area. Sitting on 300 shurikens but there's new tablets? Well, hope you like the whip.

Eyeballs! I can't believe I didn't mention that. You just had to know not to hit ANY walls... except the ones you were allowed to. The eyes make it so useful to know when to care about attacking stuff randomly. The Woman is still 100% off limits and the elephants in the Chamber of Birth are free to attack.

The Chamber of Extinction is the ONLY way to reach the Shrine of the Mother in the original. I actually did CoE pretty much last, because the hint to lighting the lamp is INSIDE the CoE, and there's no ring of light around Lameza. The entire are is literally a blank black square, except for you and enemy sprites. And if you did accidentally use the scanner on the tablet, you discover the light only stays for like, 8 seconds before it goes dark again. There's BARELY enough time to reach the next lantern in the line before it goes blank. So, color me surprised when I reached the end of the Infinite Corridor... to find nothing. The ladder down had no door... until I went and visited the CoE entrance.

I then proceeded to find another area work just like this. I was not allowed to go through the top right entrance of the Temple of the Moon into Twin Labyrinth until I went through that entrance... or at least until I removed the poison, which one of each room is in the front and the back. Same thing for the top entrance from Inferno Cavern. That ladder just didn't exist until I stumbled across it when I was clearing out Twin, went down, and found myself in the room at the top.

The Puzzles to unlock Baphomet were like... not really well explained in the original. I found no tablets that say what to do, and pretty sure none hint to the Jewel. I got there by accident and knowing raocow needed certain witches alive.

In the original, Shu HAD to be killed with the healing blood flowing, unless I just could not find the solution... I looked it up after the fact and nothing mentions it.

The Crystal Skull barrier was invisible in the original and did NOT do "a lot of damage." It barely tickled.

Viy does rise out of the socket in the original. I used the Rolling Shuriken to beat him though. It's such a good weapon in the original.

Flooding the tower was a single, less stupid puzzle in the original. The start button was just hidden behind the pot that's being pointed at instead of being a warp pipe. That's it. Water go. Getting the plane also just meant killing the plane mini bosses, not special weight platforms.

The Katana is pretty good in the original if only because not all enemies could be directly attacked with the whip. Some were so short, you would have to change weapons to the Knife or Katana, or attack it from underneath, since the upward back swing is tall enough to extend through platforms when jumping against a ceiling. It also is strong enough that you don't feel the need to swap to other weapons unless you're dealing with bats.
Phew... and I think that's every comment I wanna make that isn't a raocow spoiler.
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Re: La-Mulana - their angelical understanding

Post by Sebby19 »

I'm not sure if the original has this too (since I didn't finish Chamber of Birth either), but if I was playing the remake, I would have never noticed the hints on the walls that asked you to use all your items in this place.

Rao notices these things, but misses important moving objects on the other side of the screen
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Re: La-Mulana - their angelical understanding

Post by Crow »

so do we want to warn raocow about

the sacred orb that is all but permanently lost if he kills the one midboss in the dimensional corridor yet?



i feel this one is worth mentioning simply because of its dickishness

the chamber of birth continues to be the chamber of birth, anyways

i'm just remembering... did raocow ever resolve the upside-down door in the gate of illusion? i don't think anything else is left there except specifically that, but i don't remember if he ever fixed it or not

i've honestly never played a video game in my life
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Re: La-Mulana - their angelical understanding

Post by Voltgloss »

Cyril wrote: 4 years ago so do we want to warn raocow about

the sacred orb that is all but permanently lost if he kills the one midboss in the dimensional corridor yet?

"All but permanently lost" is not the same as "permanently lost." And it's not so "all but" as suggested. One of the Patapons has figured out a repeatable method for damage boosting up there post-sub-boss and is ready to share *if* that is needed.

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Re: La-Mulana - their angelical understanding

Post by Lostsoldier20 »

Sebby19 wrote: 4 years ago I'm not sure if the original has this too (since I didn't finish Chamber of Birth either), but if I was playing the remake, I would have never noticed the hints on the walls that asked you to use all your items in this place.
All of these are passive items. The dimensional key room didn't exist, the Woman doll is automatically used upon obtaining, and when you reach the Moon temple the ladder to the womb is already spawned. This is also the ONLY use of the doll I'm pretty sure. The map in the original is...

climb a hidden ladder behind one of those foreground walls, and through the ceiling, to wrap to the bottom of the screen where the chest is.

(just incase this puzzle is still in the remake but is used on something else)

As for the Shield, that item was miss-able. Your silver shield would have been enough for the laser pit, unless remake changed that

But hey! Progress was made! One more trip (and a heal back in town) should do it, and probably one trip to Birth.
Voltgloss wrote:

"All but permanently lost" is not the same as "permanently lost." And it's not so "all but" as suggested. One of the Patapons has figured out a repeatable method for damage boosting up there post-sub-boss and is ready to share *if* that is needed.

It's doable in the original too, it's just not recommended since failing the orb puzzle itself means having to redo the trick. I assume it's a lot easier to do here in the remake by virture of easier controls, both the boost and the orb room

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Re: La-Mulana - their angelical understanding

Post by FPzero »

Cyril wrote: 4 years ago

i'm just remembering... did raocow ever resolve the upside-down door in the gate of illusion? i don't think anything else is left there except specifically that, but i don't remember if he ever fixed it or not

I think this is related to Hell Temple and therefore not required.

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Re: La-Mulana - their angelical understanding

Post by Chirei »

Lostsoldier20 wrote: 4 years ago As for the Shield, that item was miss-able. Your silver shield would have been enough for the laser pit, unless remake changed that
It's absolutely required. The Silver Shield will be knocked away almost upon the first frame of touching the 999999 damage laser, killing you instantly.

Since the Angel Shield is the only shield that cannot be knocked out of Lemeza's hands, this is the only way to do it.
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Re: La-Mulana - their angelical understanding

Post by Arctangent »

i wonder if we should tell rao about the software combinations that aren't explained anywhere but the manual, plus any that might not be explained anywhere at all

i guess just asking this out in the open where he can see it can lead to an answer anyway, but given that he has no interest in experimenting with 'em ( understandable, consider a lot of 'em would be complete unnoticeable unless you went out of your way to try everything with every combination ) and that they're not in-game ... yeah

especially the fairy ones, unless they are hinted at in-game somewhere, since all they do is remove tedium

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Re: La-Mulana - their angelical understanding

Post by Lostsoldier20 »

Chirei wrote: 4 years agoIt's absolutely required. The Silver Shield will be knocked away almost upon the first frame of touching the 999999 damage laser, killing you instantly.
Huh... that's new then. And apparently if you fail this puzzle

it becomes purchasable in that fake shield shop

. So yeah, see the last part of my "unless that was changed" +1 to the change counter. I needa check the original now to see if the backup spot is there, but I don't think it is.
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Re: La-Mulana - their angelical understanding

Post by Zummorr »

One of the many things that really bug me in LM is how the G.U.I.L.D Software doesn't beep in Bramha's room.
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Re: La-Mulana - their angelical understanding

Post by SAJewers »

Arctangent wrote: 4 years ago

especially the fairy ones, unless they are hinted at in-game somewhere, since all they do is remove tedium

That was actually asked in the patapon spotzone, and it seems almost everyone thought voltgloss should outright tell raocow

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Re: La-Mulana - their angelical understanding

Post by Ditocoaf »

Yeah I could make an argument that any information available in the manual should just be part of Voltgloss's notes. Up to Voltgloss, though.
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Re: La-Mulana - their angelical understanding

Post by Voltgloss »

raocow wrote: 5 years ago ping
raocow, the following information (i) is in the manual, (ii) does not spoil any puzzles, and (iii) will serve only to eliminate a very specific type of tedium you are experiencing. Explanation follows, and the information in question is under spoiler blocks should you prefer not to view it.

You showed in today's video that you have realized the different types of fairies have different types of summoning animations, and that you can essentially "pick" which fairy you get by leaving the screen and reentering before the summoning animation ends. Doing so, you can get whichever fairy you want. It's just tedious for the rare fairies (especially key fairies).

There is another method, explained partially in the manual, whereby you can automatically get either a weapon fairy, luck fairy, OR key fairy from a fairy point, 100% guaranteed. Cutting down that "keep switching screens until the one you want spawns" time down to nothing.

It's by equipping certain software combinations.

So, by a vote of 10 to 3 in the Patapon spotzone (and in agreement with some of the posts here), the below spoiler block includes the partial information in page 24 of the manual about the software combinations needed to always spawn a particular type of fairy. If you wish to use this information, you'll still need to experiment in part with your software until you find the full combinations.
1) Miracle Witch + ? = The fairy of treasure appear surely when you touch a tiny light.
2) Miracle Witch + ? = The fairy of key appear surely when you touch a tiny light.
3) Miracle Witch + ? = The fairy of weapon appear surely when you touch a tiny light.
If you just want the exact combinations for each of these fairy types, cutting out the time spent experimenting to find them, they are in this next spoiler block.
1) Miracle Witch + Space Capster II = guaranteed luck fairy
2) Miracle Witch + Mekuri Master = guaranteed key fairy
3) Miracle Witch + Bounce Shot = guaranteed weapon fairy
As a final aside, page 24 of the manual also lists partial information about other software combinations. None are needed to complete the game (the only software combination absolutely needed is to combine the two map softwares, because the statue where you used the Dragon Bone in the Shrine of the Mother doesn't appear until you view the Shrine's full map). I'm not posting information about those other combinations here. The manual is linked in the OP.
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Re: La-Mulana - their angelical understanding

Post by Zummorr »

I would have voted against pinging raocow regarding fairy combinations. Regardless.

I'm wondering where exactly you find out that you should read the manual, or that a manual even exists for the game. Wii software does come with the manual. However the WII manual says NOTHING on software combinations. https://la-mulana.com/download/LA-MULAN ... ual_UK.pdf

Downloading La mulana doesn't put the pdf on your PC.

Before you furiously object saying you "always read the manual!" Many games on steam don't even have manuals. For example, check out the half life 2, portal 1 or 2 steam pages. or the TF2 steam page...https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/steam/a ... 1539304875...

La mulana's manual falls pretty close to the comedic category with its gratuitous Engrish and cartoons.
Even with all of Xelpud's ornery dialogue, he never suggests it or mentions the manual.

I'm fairly certain the patapon voted in such a manner to encourage raocow to open the silly thing. Since it is vital to the logic of a future puzzle. I want to also point out that the Wii version also does not have any hints for that puzzle either. Not that it really matters since raocow will solve it by using mantras in every room until success anyways.

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Re: La-Mulana - their angelical understanding

Post by Voltgloss »

Zummorr wrote: I'm wondering where exactly you find out that you should read the manual, or that a manual even exists for the game.
It's linked on the Steam page.
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Re: La-Mulana - their angelical understanding

Post by Zummorr »

Zummorr wrote: I would have voted against pinging raocow regarding fairy combinations. Regardless.

I'm wondering where exactly you find out that you should read the manual, or that a manual even exists for the game. Wii software does come with the manual. However the WII manual says NOTHING on software combinations. https://la-mulana.com/download/LA-MULAN ... ual_UK.pdf

Downloading La mulana doesn't put the pdf on your PC.

Before you furiously object saying you "always read the manual!" Many games on steam don't even have manuals. For example, check out the half life 2, portal 1 or 2 steam pages. or the TF2 steam page...https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/steam/a ... 1539304875...
Voltgloss wrote:
Zummorr wrote: I'm wondering where exactly you find out that you should read the manual, or that a manual even exists for the game.
It's linked on the Steam page.
Well aware of that. It's also on the NIGORO website that I linked the Wiiware manual from. I'll rephrase it. "Why should a player come to the conclusion that they need information outside the game for their puzzle solving."
Last edited by Zummorr 4 years ago, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: La-Mulana - their angelical understanding

Post by raocow »

the logic here is not that it's there to help solve a puzzle, but more of a quality of life kinda thing
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Re: La-Mulana - their angelical understanding

Post by Zummorr »

raocow wrote: 4 years ago the logic here is not that it's there to help solve a puzzle, but more of a quality of life kinda thing
Manual has been up there since day 1. If you read it, Patapon wouldn't have seen the need to hand out the information.

You actually prove my point. You have had more access than most players and you still haven't read it.
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