ᘛ⁐̤ᕐᐷ ᘛ⁐̤ᕐᐷ ᘛ⁐̤ᕐᐷ - World Soccer Winning Eleven 5: Final Frog - 9

[Kilgamayan]

Is there a guide anywhere to the sources of the stage musics?

[KobaBeach]

This was the first hack I ever saw to use custom powerups to any real meaningful end. The whole game was a very validating experience, because I was so sick of custom resources being completely unexploited, only being used in hacks in which their presence doesn't really matter. (It's very appropriate that we're playing this after 3mix.)

The JUMP team really likes their wacky gimmicks and will exploit them to the fullest.
While the concentrated "challenge room marathon" style level design JUMP became stereotyped for isn't really my thing, I can commend it for this.

A lot of people would just rather make vanilla-adjacent stuff that don't try to explore the added mechanics of the ASM they use, and that honestly just ends up making a lot of Mario hacks really boring as they're all just by the numbers, really safe Mario levels being made for the sake of being custom Mario levels. Hell, barely anyone tries to learn ASM or use ASM resources these days outside of probably Kaizo?^{[citation needed]} This isn't to imply that ASMers are game design or creativity savants either, 3Mix and Brutal Mario are more than proof of that (especially 3Mix, I avoided that LP for a reason).

Like the VIPs have really glaring issues, but they tried to do their best with their custom assets (as glitchy and untested as they were) and that's honestly what makes them stand out from your average New Super Vanilla World or whatever. There's a reason interest in SMW hacking is dropping off outside of Kaizo, no one cares to step out of their comfort zones in SMW and it's just a lot more intuitive and stress-free to make your own levels in Mario Maker. (I'm kind of hype for 2, don't kill me for this Leet)

Is there a guide anywhere to the sources of the stage musics?

So far:
Title: Kirby's Dream Land 2 - Cloudy Park Map by Pinci
Overworld: Kirby's Dream Land - Title Screen by Pinci
Cloud: Columns III: Revenge of Columns - Column Dive by Ultima
Chainsaw: Pokémon HeartGold/SoulSilver - Azalea and Blackthorn City by Wakana
North Korea: Socket: Time Dominator - Treasure Castle by Sinc-X
Shell: SoulCalibur II - Confrontation by Wakana

[SAJewers]

The JUMP team really likes their wacky gimmicks and will exploit them to the fullest.
While the concentrated "challenge room marathon" style level design JUMP became stereotyped for isn't really my thing, I can commend it for this.

<span>A lot of people would just rather make vanilla-adjacent stuff that don't try to explore the added mechanics of the ASM they use, and that honestly just ends up making a lot of Mario hacks really boring as they're all just by the numbers, really safe Mario levels being made for the sake of being custom Mario levels. Hell, barely anyone tries to learn ASM or use ASM resources these days outside of probably Kaizo?^{[url=<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed][citation">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed][citation</a> needed][/url]} This isn't to imply that ASMers are game design or creativity savants either, 3Mix and Brutal Mario are more than proof of that (especially 3Mix, I avoided that LP for a reason).</span>

Like the VIPs have really glaring issues, but they tried to do their best with their custom assets (as glitchy and untested as they were) and that's honestly what makes them stand out from your average New Super Vanilla World or whatever. There's a reason interest in SMW hacking is dropping off outside of Kaizo, no one cares to step out of their comfort zones in SMW and it's just a lot more intuitive and stress-free to make your own levels in Mario Maker. (I'm kind of hype for 2, don't kill me for this Leet)

I think as well, if you design around the constraints of vanilla SMW, you have something you can lean on in order to produce something well-designed (the original SMW levels). If you start adding in custom programming, then you can't really rely on the original SMW levels as part of your design document, and most people it seems would rather simply use vanilla SMW for that, leading to mis-use and under-use of custom assets (or one-off gimmicks, especially in collabs).

That's why hacks like this, VIP, ASMT, wtc tend to stand out, not necessarily because their base design was well though from the start, but because they simply stand out.

[Super Maks 64]

I really wasn't expecting raocow to struggle with this level so much.

Also NSMB Shell is great and you can't convince me otherwise.

[KobaBeach]

I think as well, if you design around the constraints of vanilla SMW, you have something you can lean on in order to produce something well-designed (the original SMW levels). If you start adding in custom programming, then you can't really rely on the original SMW levels as part of your design document, and most people it seems would rather simply use vanilla SMW for that, leading to mis-use and under-use of custom assets (or one-off gimmicks, especially in collabs).

That's why hacks like this, VIP, ASMT, wtc tend to stand out, not necessarily because their base design was well though from the start, but because they simply stand out.

I see what you mean, but you don't have to redesign the whole game. One-off gimmicks are perfectly valid ways to design a level, the "four step" method of level design seen in the later Marios and many other games (including the JUMP team works) is proof of that.

I think a much better way to develop a sort of "design document", as you said, would be to study the many ways 2D platformers explore gimmicks and variation in gameplay (such as the aforementioned four step method), rather than just try to mimic what you believe Nintendo's levels to be just because they're the vanilla game. The latter is how we end up with some of the more painfully safe SMW hacks that try to have "Nintendo level design". I know hacking is just a hobby for absolute turbonerds to do on their spare time, but it still runs on the general rules of game design.

NSMB Shell is great and you can't convince me otherwise.

I mean it's a novel concept it's just not fun to use outside of a speedgame because you keep entering the shell and going out of control when you're at top P Speed and it's like hhhhhhhh

Mini Mushroom though is The Shit
Momentum and speed in platformers is my fucking jam and its all Mega Drive and GBA Sonic's fault

[Mata Hari]

[SAJewers]

I think a much better way to develop a sort of "design document", as you said, would be to study the many ways 2D platformers explore gimmicks and variation in gameplay (such as the aforementioned four step method), rather than just try to mimic what you believe Nintendo's levels to be just because they're the vanilla game. The latter is how we end up with some of the more painfully safe SMW hacks that try to have "Nintendo level design". I know hacking is just a hobby for absolute turbonerds to do on their spare time, but it still runs on the general rules of game design.

Oh, I agree. If you want to come up with something good, you should really first sit down and write down the general basics of what you want to do (sorta like this, though not exactly since it's a mario hack and not a full=on game from scratch). Most though it seems would rather just say "it's a mario hack" and just move on and make levels.

edit: to add, it's probably why mario maker is so popular: you don't need to think about that stuff, just make levels.

[AuraLancer]

I appreciate the current topic title reference

[Mata Hari]

why did that checkpoint not work

[KobaBeach]

because yhvh made it thus (not megaten)

[Mandew]

I think a much better way to develop a sort of "design document", as you said, would be to study the many ways 2D platformers explore gimmicks and variation in gameplay (such as the aforementioned four step method), rather than just try to mimic what you believe Nintendo's levels to be just because they're the vanilla game. The latter is how we end up with some of the more painfully safe SMW hacks that try to have "Nintendo level design". I know hacking is just a hobby for absolute turbonerds to do on their spare time, but it still runs on the general rules of game design.

Good level design can exist abstract from methods. To me it's always been "focus on the core of the experience, and explore around that core in many directions."

Want the player to have a laugh? Make a part of a level level that sets up a punchline. Want the player to be overcome with fear? Want that fear to the be the set-up to the punchline? Want the player to feel the flow as they traverse the level like some sort of badass? Want the player to feel smart? Want the player to squee at how cute something is? These are few of many, many possible cores for a player to engage with, and it's the level designer's job to make it so the player not only experiences those feelings, but also that little else gets in the way of it.

Mice is all about the one core -- Introducing a new element and exploring the extents of what can be done with it. The game sticks closely to those who want that experience, and cares not to keep those who aren't a fan. It doesn't have to keep everyone engaged -- there's hundreds of romhacks to play out there, why compromise how far you can take the experience when those people can just be playing literally anything else? That's the sort of wonders that go into amateur mediums.

[KobaBeach]

Coming out of their comfort zone to cater to a niche is something I'd love to see happen more in the western hacking sphere, but outside of the JUMP Team and a few other people, it doesn't really happen. All you said is like, completely valid though, and I agree with it 100%. That's the beauty of game design.

[strongbadman]

Mads the right decisiom to not One More Level todwy raocow. Next level is a tough one!

[Mata Hari]

raocow most hearts are hollow

[Ryrir]

Trepanning, also known as trepanation, is a surgical intervention in which a hole is drilled or scraped into the human skull, exposing the dura mater to treat health problems related to intracranial diseases or release pressured blood buildup from an injury. [...] In ancient times, holes were drilled into a person who was behaving in what was considered an abnormal way to let out what people believed were evil spirits.

Certainly adds some dark undertones to that level

[Lazy_]

quick devcom for the second level:

This is my contribution to the surgical theme of this hack.

On that particular C3, someone called Tsutarja released a slew of custom sprites, all of which were borderline unusable. Naturally, I took it upon myself to make a level using the most ridiculous sprite of the bunch, and this was the result. I'm not sure if they're even supposed to get stuck in walls like that. (They're meant to be this NSMB enemy, by the way.)

Also, I didn't misspell trepanation. That was idol's fault

[strongbadman]

Can we get an update to the songs heard today? I know the first one was from the factory levels in kirby 64

[Leet]

Today's level was all about anticipating the angle of the dangle

[Super Maks 64]

The amount of times raocow forgets what each block does in this hack is beyond frustrating.

[Crow]

yeah how dare he not immediately remember the function of custom sprites

I dug all three levels today

[idol]

c3 is a biannual four day event in which the community of smwcentral comes together in order to release resources, hacks, and intermingle. mice was centralized aroundthis c3. each c3 in the past few c3s, erik has released a slew of sprites - here's an example from our last c3. we went into creating mice under the assumption erik would do this for 2018's january c3. however, erik ran into an issue that c3 and released next to nothing - and as such our custom sprite choices became limited very quickly. lx5 released a version of his powerups patch that c3, which serves as a basis for the majority of the levels mechanics. the rest of mice's sprites were developed for the most part by tsutarja and russianman - and we learned through experience that tsutarja's sprites just... didn't function up to par. most were very buggy, and there were even more c3 resources he developed that we didn't use just because they were too far gone to salvage within the strict time limit. the graphics are based off of a global graphics pack by katrina, and the yoshi's island graphical rips were all released by me. the music was also for the most part all c3 releases, mostly from wakana / pinci / maxo i think?

husk was developed by snoruntpyro around the nsmb shell, which is part of lx5's powerups pack. the cave area was just a result of rushed time of where to put the tutorial & the secret exit. the vertical section was elaborated on by me based off of a short cut section pyro initially did for the main level in order to add a secret exit.

ground beef switch palace was made by ft029 centered around a sprite by russianman of a grinder that kills other sprites. i think i mightve named this level it sounds like something id name (i think i also named sixcorby's clouds level).

hollow metal heart was a level i struggled to make - the super paper mario sprites were by tsutarja and i like their jib but they just ain't coded well. they made sfx that initially broke the music, and their hitbox was so janky they'd eat the player from 40 miles away sometimes. i liked the atmosphere of the level but i think i struggled with those sprites the most of anything in this hack.

trepanation clinic i cant spell. its a pretty level tho - graphics are from katrina.

baller was by frozenquills, based on the superball from super mario land (developed by lx5).

as this hack goes on you'll see more and more inconsistent ways to reset levels and it's just a result of limited time and scattered organization.

[Kilgamayan]

Baller was super neat. Good show there.

[KobaBeach]

the rest of mice's sprites were developed for the most part by tsutarja and russianman - and we learned through experience that tsutarja's sprites just... didn't function up to par. most were very buggy, and there were even more c3 resources he developed that we didn't use just because they were too far gone to salvage within the strict time limit.

(...)

hollow metal heart was a level i struggled to make - the super paper mario sprites were by tsutarja and i like their jib but they just ain't coded well. they made sfx that initially broke the music, and their hitbox was so janky they'd eat the player from 40 miles away sometimes. i liked the atmosphere of the level but i think i struggled with those sprites the most of anything in this hack.

On that particular C3, someone called Tsutarja released a slew of custom sprites, all of which were borderline unusable. Naturally, I took it upon myself to make a level using the most ridiculous sprite of the bunch, and this was the result. I'm not sure if they're even supposed to get stuck in walls like that.

Trepanation and Metal were some of my least favorite levels for this reason like, the sprites function really bad and don't really work very well as enemies either like?

The SPM enemy is

Code: Select all

Walk back and forth
	If touch bomb, erase bomb sprite, explode and die
	Else if touch Mario,
		If Mario = Big or Flower/Cape, make him go down a power-up and spit him back out
		Else, if Mario = Small, kill him
	Else, return to start

The NSMB enemy is

Code: Select all

Walk back and forth
	If touching wall, freeze in place??????
	Else if hopped on by Mario, hop and change direction
	Else, return to start

They're just not very threatening or good to design platforming levels around, to hear they're even glitchier than they first seemed just sounds unsurprising.

Good coding practices just aren't a thing in SMWC and a lot of people's ASM is just outright carol-level messes if not worse, hell a lot of early sprites (JP and Western) were just stapling random bits of code together without fully studying how they work first lmao

BALLER! was a pretty good palate cleanser, though. Puzzling out how the superball's ricochet would go was really fun!

and their hitbox was so janky they'd eat the player from 40 miles away sometimes.

I want to say this is from doing 8-bit math with the low bytes of just Mario and the Sprite X position instead of doing 16-bit math as Mario and the Sprite's X positions are both 16-bit values (the Sprite X's low and high bytes are just placed really far apart from eachother which is extra fucking stupid but That's Just SMW For You), but I can't be sure and I'm not in the mood to sift through bad code because that makes my head hurt

Today's level was all about anticipating the angle of the dangle

i am the final fantasy

seven

Can we get an update to the songs heard today? I know the first one was from the factory levels in kirby 64

Bad Sprites: Kirby 64: The Crystal Shards - Factory Inspection by Gloomy
Bad Sprites - Ice Mountain Zone Chapter: MOTHER 3 - White by Pinci
Super Mario Land: Original - Rain Covered City by Pinci

the music was also for the most part all c3 releases, mostly from wakana / pinci / maxo i think?

wakana / pinci / gloomy / ultima, actually

<3

[FrozenQuills]

so yeah Baller is my first dive into making puzzle levels and to be honest I don't think I did very well on this one lol

Despite how well it turned out for others, I was annoyed by the amount of knowledge you need to figure out how to solve the puzzles with all the block and sprite interactions

then again if people didn't like this puzzle level, they would despise one of the later levels so I guess this is a good gatekeeper

[morsel/morceau]

I think trepenation clinic was one of my favourite levels simply because a lazy designer, such as I, would look at these sprites for a few minutes before discarding them as unusable, but a Lazy designer knows better and is able to construct a delightfully fresh and appealing level with them.