Super Mario Bros. 3MIX - Tippi and Count Bleck

[SAJewers]

In other words, if we want to minimize the risk of future incidents like this we should do our best to find out about any particularly boring/tedious/frustrating segments in hacks, SMBX episodes, fangames, etc. before tossing them into the patapon polls or the request thread.

Good luck with that.

I'm aware that "do some research/refresh yourself on a game before suggesting it" is a bit of an idealistic suggestion that not everyone's going to follow, but it's not like we don't already consider other factors when discussing whether a game would be good LP material. If even a few folks take the time to check for potential non-raoLP-friendly parts, it could still make a difference.

That being said, it'd also be good to provide some kind of general, non-spoilery heads up about that kind of stuff in games already in the lineup; maybe something like "[early/mid/late/post]game 3mix comet warning:

world 5

" at the start of the LP? Or something else along that line of thinking that still softens the impact when raocow gets to that point but doesn't leave him dreading a future part of the game for a chunk of the playthrough. idk.

I mean, even if people who knew about the game or played were asked to highlight things beforehand that could be problematic, I wouldn't have said anything here because i don't recall ever seeing any complaints or criticism towards the comets and their inclusion here.

Looking around the internet for general perception of 3mix the past hour or so, the only real complaints i've come across is the slowdown and some glitches. pretty much everyone else eho's played it and gave their thoughts seemes to have enjoyed it, with a few people putting on their top nes hacks list.

So far, it seems raocow is the lone negative voice here.

[Voltgloss]

Looking around the internet for general perception of 3mix the past hour or so, the only real complaints i've come across is the slowdown and some glitches. pretty much everyone else eho's played it and gave their thoughts seemes to have enjoyed it, with a few people putting on their top nes hacks list.

Have any of those folks said anything (positive, negative, or neutral) about the comets? I'm curious whether this is a "some other people who've played this made clear they liked them" scenario, or if this is a "nobody seems to ever mention the comets at all" scenario.

[SAJewers]

Looking around the internet for general perception of 3mix the past hour or so, the only real complaints i've come across is the slowdown and some glitches. pretty much everyone else eho's played it and gave their thoughts seemes to have enjoyed it, with a few people putting on their top nes hacks list.

Have any of those folks said anything (positive, negative, or neutral) about the comets? I'm curious whether this is a "some other people who've played this made clear they liked them" scenario, or if this is a "nobody seems to ever mention the comets at all" scenario.

https://youtu.be/W4Zq1sTsx1c?t=437
https://warosu.org/vr/thread/1907540#p1933762
https://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtop ... 0#p1018198
https://youtu.be/00JMzIN67SU?t=4261

[Voltgloss]

Interesting. Thanks.

[Super Maks 64]

Well, I always knew that this hack was pretty meh and extremely overhyped, but I didn't think that I should post that before the lp started as I had no idea that it would have such an effect on raocow.

EDIT: Also worth noting that no one voted for the A-Side games in the 2018 poll as raocow just put almost everything that wasn't kaizo as next lp games

[freshtalk]

I didn't like those comets at all either, but I don't think just because we've hit a (stupidly) rough patch means we need to act like raocow should never have touched this game. There's still been plenty of neat stuff before and hopefully after these parts.

[Leet]

Remember that I legitimately forgot about the comets' existence, like, entirely. Yes, I kind of regret thinking this game was good now, but not because raocow should/can only lets play very good goodgames.

[CM30]

Hmm, somewhat regret not asking Southbird about the comets now. Ah well, that's in the past now.

Still, I'm not surprised most people didn't speak of them. My experience is that people who aren't super dedicated ROM hack players don't tend to play them all the way through, or in many cases, much further than the first world or three. So many of the media sites covering it likely only experienced the very earliest parts of the game and didn't get to the point where the comets would be a thing.

[raekuul]

While I think the comets aren't inherently a bad idea, there didn't need to be so many of them, and especially not the same kind more than once in the same world.

[BobisOnlyBob]

I think this is kind of a raocow/talkhaus specific issue. At least, the degree we're reacting to it - it's still not good design, but we have a more intense reaction for a reason.

Most people playing 3mix were playing it for the novelty of a Mario Bros 3 romhack - something raocow has already done with SMB3 e-reader levels and Mario Adventure. Additionally, we're incredibly used to a huge range of romhacks and fangames, mostly SMW and SMBX, which frequently include SMB3 elements and revisiting older games. Gravity mechanics, sand blocks, remixes of classic levels, all of these have been "done to death" on raocow's channel, so the game is really only a technical showcase of getting it done on an NES with authentic limitations - but then paced like a conventional Nintendo-made Mario game with modern Mario elements like postgame challenges added on. As a result, we (including raocow) were already way too familiar with this, mostly unimpressed with the linear and flat level design and gimmicks and easy bosses. Being forced to go back over it again is something most other audiences would just not bother because "I already beat the game" and thus not complain, or would forget about because hey, it's just a handful more levels even if they're nothing special it's still "original" and a new experience to them.

Furthermore, most players of this would be playing it on their own time, alone, or on a stream with a group of friends or watchers to interact with - raocow's solo-with-tomorrow's-audience means he feels compelled to be consistently entertaining, and when both he and his audience are already bored and he knows thanks to his approach he's in for several more days of boring content it's no wonder he forced it all together and got slightly loopy and very bitter about in the process just to be done with it. I can spend an hour in a game doing tedious bullshit without losing it (I play warframe, natch) but if I had to do it for a recorded video that'll be shown to an audience of 1000+ people the next day, I'd probably end up falling apart and absolutely badmouthing the dull game in an attempt to keep things interesting.

Just some thoughts. I still think it's not a good game, and not just from our community's perspective, but I can absolutely see how it became popular and highly recommended, and why we're having the backlash we are.

[Alice]

It's neat on a technical level, but, man that gimmick gets old fast. Replay like 20 of the same levels? What's even the point of the 3-coins-per-level thing then? I thought that'd unlock the center of the Star Road, but the fact that it doesn't and you have to replay essentially like 1/3 of the game is seriously lame

It'd have been better if world 0 was locked behind the star coins and then the replays unlocked bits of world 0. Then raocow at least wouldn't have had to do it all at once which would probably go over a lot better.

The real issue, as far as I see it, is just that immediately after beating the game you have to go and replay a huge chunk of it before you actually get access to the rest, even if you'd gone out of your way to get the keys earlier in the game.

[Awoo]

It's neat on a technical level, but, man that gimmick gets old fast. Replay like 20 of the same levels? What's even the point of the 3-coins-per-level thing then? I thought that'd unlock the center of the Star Road, but the fact that it doesn't and you have to replay essentially like 1/3 of the game is seriously lame

It'd have been better if world 0 was locked behind the star coins and then the replays unlocked bits of world 0. Then raocow at least wouldn't have had to do it all at once which would probably go over a lot better.

The real issue, as far as I see it, is just that immediately after beating the game you have to go and replay a huge chunk of it before you actually get access to the rest, even if you'd gone out of your way to get the keys earlier in the game.

100% agree

[raekuul]

The real issue, as far as I see it, is just that immediately after beating the game you have to go and replay a huge chunk of it before you actually get access to the rest, even if you'd gone out of your way to get the keys earlier in the game.

So, what, open up the Challenge Comets when a world is cleared rather than when the game is?

[CM30]

Or maybe have them unlock as you play through. Didn't Galaxy had them appear somewhat randomly?

[Leet]

Or just make the comets actually interesting

Maybe this is too "given" a solution

[BobisOnlyBob]

Or just make the comets actually interesting

Maybe this is too "given" a solution

I mean you're definitely not wrong, but pacing would've helped make the existing (mediocre) challenges less of a burden.

Or maybe have them unlock as you play through. Didn't Galaxy had them appear somewhat randomly?

In Galaxy they appear randomly after you collect 13 stars, and you can pay starbits to shuffle them if they're in an annoying place. In Galaxy 2, they appear in levels you've completed and grabbed the corresponding Comet Medal in and can't be shuffled, because you don't have to select them even if they're present.

What this design has mimicked is actually the Green Comets that appear at the end of Galaxy 2 - once you complete the game, Green Comets rain down over the majority of levels, adding Green Stars to them. Those are basically just hard-to-find stars, tucked away somewhere on the corresponding regular "course". To imitate this accurately, it would have required adding hidden secret exits to dozens of levels retroactively - not really as feasible in 2D as 3D, since most of the sensible "hiding spots" were already occupied by the star coins on each level.

[Arctangent]

not really as feasible in 2D as 3D, since most of the sensible "hiding spots" were already occupied by the star coins on each level.

If you're slapping that all over a bunch of levels that weren't at all designed for it? Yeah, sure, but I sure that if you actually designed the game with that idea in mind, then it wouldn't be at all infeasible to include it. Heck, you could probably modify the level design with extra platforms and blocks and stuff, as long as you're hiding the star behind a puzzle or platforming challenge or something.

[Mandew]

There's no doubt in my mind that the comets bring nothing interesting to the table aside from "being impressive" and appealing to a certain type of fanservice, and I feel as though their inclusion and forced interaction with the player is a very typical kind of mistake - such decisions are often made on an author's delusion and lack of consideration and/or deliberation.

That said, we -should not- go out of our way to "protect raocow" from things like these. If anything, there is so much that can be learned from viewing his experience with the comets -- even moreso in the general context of 3mix. I feel his commentary towards this segment of the game is warranted, and that his cynicism matches the cynical nature of what went on here. "Gotta squeeze out some more playtime out of the player" are words which are all too easy to put in the author's mouth, indeed -- but it's essentially what the *game* is saying, regardless if the author meant or even thought this.

[CM30]

Well, the end of 3Mix draws near. You can definitely see the Super Paper Mario references getting a bit more obvious at this point, which is fitting given the last level.

For anyone who's wondering about the weird tiles and castle, well (spoilers):

It's based on Castle Bleck from Super Paper Mario, and it seems the tiles are meant to represent the void from said game

[BobisOnlyBob]

not really as feasible in 2D as 3D, since most of the sensible "hiding spots" were already occupied by the star coins on each level.

If you're slapping that all over a bunch of levels that weren't at all designed for it? Yeah, sure, but I sure that if you actually designed the game with that idea in mind, then it wouldn't be at all infeasible to include it. Heck, you could probably modify the level design with extra platforms and blocks and stuff, as long as you're hiding the star behind a puzzle or platforming challenge or something.

That's kinda my point - the Green Stars of SMG2 are also clearly a filler afterthought, tucked away in silly locations, sometimes all but right next to eachother, sometimes with additional blocks just added to provide a floor to stand on in order to collect them. But they still sorta "work" because it's in 3D space, and in 3D space occlusion is frequent and hunting for things using the camera is the norm. In 2D, you need to go out of your way to hide things with layers or warps (pipes/doors/screen transitions).

[Sebby19]

Despite having Super Paper Mario I never beat it, so this is the first time seeing those black wizard guys. Despite, they're artstyle gave me Super Paper Mario vibes. Good to know I'm right!

[Nimono]

It'd have been better if world 0 was locked behind the star coins and then the replays unlocked bits of world 0. Then raocow at least wouldn't have had to do it all at once which would probably go over a lot better.

The real issue, as far as I see it, is just that immediately after beating the game you have to go and replay a huge chunk of it before you actually get access to the rest, even if you'd gone out of your way to get the keys earlier in the game.

From what I recall, World 0 IS locked behind the Star Coins- you just need all of them from every prior world, which happens to include the comets. So basically, the comets could've not existed at all and everything would be fine.

That's kinda my point - the Green Stars of SMG2 are also clearly a filler afterthought, tucked away in silly locations

I liked the

one in the final Bowser Jr. level that's just randomly out in the middle of space. It's hilarious, and when you've done many other Green Stars beforehand, it's pretty much what you'd expect, too

[Awoo]

It's been quite a ride so far. Will be nice for 3MIX to be over, this last week or so has felt really stretched. Sometimes, it really just isn't worth it to squeeze the lemon of gameplay to its absolute limit

[Leet]

I don't really think this game is that comparable to Brutal Mario. If Mario 3MIX was just constantly doing new crazy things, it would be a lot more enjoyable. Instead, it creates a small handful of world-specific assets and then stretches them over several levels worth of content - when it comes to the remakes, this leads to levels that are faithful in layout but not assets, leading to pointless and unnecessary artifacts of the original level. In the end it all comes back to the whales. It's very arbitrary what got ported and what didn't. That's not to say that Southbird needed to do more programming, because obviously what's there is impressive, but it's pointless to meticulously recreate level layouts if you're only going to recreate less than half of the elements those layouts are built out of.

Brutal Mario, on the other hand, is still interesting as an artifact for its pure spectacle. It's not just "a hack with more new assets than other hacks", it's a hack that, in later worlds, has a completely original boss almost every level (sometimes more than one!). Are they good? Well, some of them are, but a lot aren't. But the sheer frequency of these and other strange brand-new gimmicks justifies each level's existence in the hack's context. It's not polished design, but it's not nearly as boring as 3mix.

[Leet]

One more thing, about Mario 3 hacking: although I believe it started dev before 3mix came out, another SMB3 hack with lots of newly programmed elements is in development; it's the next hack by the creator of Mario Adventure, the only other smb3 hack raocow has played. From what I remember, it looked even more impressive than 3mix.