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Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 30 Dec 2018, 05:28
by ano0maly
In light of the issue of spoilers and backseat gaming being brought up in several threads (like Rayman Origins, Hollow Knight, and Megaman), I feel that we should have a thread to discuss the problems and guidelines to help address them. Having a separate thread also hopefully means those threads would be less clogged up with this talk.

To put it simply: when should you use the tags that hide text?

Re: Spoilers Problem Discussion

Posted: 30 Dec 2018, 05:33
by Leet
Here's how to address it: don't spoil raocow. the end

Re: Spoilers Problem Discussion

Posted: 30 Dec 2018, 05:37
by pholtos
I have been of the opinion it should simply be like this.

If it's asked for: feel free to post.
If it's not asked for: spoiler it. Label it appropriately and let it be read if they want to read it.

There ya go. Simple right? Be an easy change for active threads if this were the basic rule of thumb.

Spoilers Problem Discussion

Posted: 30 Dec 2018, 05:38
by Awoo
If there's something you feel could spoil the experience of raocow or anyone else on the talkhaus, please remember that the "ispoiler" and "spoiler" tags exist up there ^

ispoilers look like this:

this is an ispoiler



spoilers look like this:
this is a spoiler
I hope that helps!

Re: Spoilers Problem Discussion

Posted: 30 Dec 2018, 05:39
by ano0maly
Leet wrote: don't spoil raocow
I agree with that.

The problem is that people have been complaining about tips and giving directions to the player as well, even when they're not necessarily "spoiling". This discussion has surfaced at least twice in Hollow Knight thread. I don't agree that everything that's remotely helpful or giving directions should be spoilered out. If you think that raocow should just do everything on his own with no input, well, tough. His let's play style is a collaborative experience. If he did want to play purely on his own and just upload that, he would record the whole thing in advance.

Re: Spoilers Problem Discussion

Posted: 30 Dec 2018, 05:41
by Leet
Also it's kind of silly to treat this like a general problem we need to solve together when it's like 75 percent one single user being obstinate over and over

Re: Spoilers Problem Discussion

Posted: 30 Dec 2018, 05:44
by ano0maly
It's because people do inherently care about the issues themselves, separate from any particular person, as demonstrated in the HK thread. From the Rayman thread:
SAJewers wrote: apply it to everyone and anyone who spoils stuff/backseats/tells raocow what do to.. No need to ruin this for raocow.

Spoilers Problem Discussion

Posted: 30 Dec 2018, 05:46
by Awoo
I really don't want to be "that person", but would it be pertinent to edit people's posts if there's a spoiler that should be spoiled but isn't? :ehh:

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 30 Dec 2018, 06:08
by Ditocoaf
People disagree with what's a "spoiler" and what isn't, so it's useful to take that word out of the discussion sometimes.

For instance, more broadly: Not everyone always wants your help, so the right thing to do is give them a choice whether they want your help or not. The tags that serve that function happen to be named "spoiler" tags, but you can put something in there even if you don't think it's a spoiler, for any text that people might want the choice to opt in or out of.


Sebby19 wrote: The reason I don't format my posts like that is because in my mind that is inherently contradictory. I'm basically going "I have something helpful I want to say!", and then immediately hide what I want to say (Unless it's an enormous text dump). It's all or nothing.
Your posts can be genuinely helpful, but let people decide whether they want that help. Please.

You've been asked this many times, by commonfolk, by mods, and if memory serves at least once by raocow himself. Which means that if you fail to give people that choice, if you continue to insist on forcing your help upon unwanting recipients, you are the one at fault, no matter differing preferences, differing viewpoints in our minds, "seeing eye-to-eye".

Re: Spoilers Problem Discussion

Posted: 30 Dec 2018, 06:10
by Gardenolva
Leet wrote: Here's how to address it: don't spoil raocow. the end
That's one rule for everyone here.

If you wish to help raocow out, like everyone else said, please do so carefully and throroughly without ever spoiling him or anyone else in that matter. I leaned that lesson when I first came here since I was totally new to this forum format back then.

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 30 Dec 2018, 06:11
by YelseyKing
Ditocoaf wrote: You've been asked this many times, by nobodies, by mods, and if memory serves at least once by raocow himself. Which means that if you fail to give people that choice, if you continue to insist on forcing your help upon unwanting recipients, you are the one at fault, no matter differing preferences, differing viewpoints in our minds, "seeing eye-to-eye".
This. Very much, this.

You put it better than I could have, sir.

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 30 Dec 2018, 06:15
by ano0maly
I changed the title of the thread to better reflect the scope. It's not just spoiler content alone but more like when the tags should be used.

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 30 Dec 2018, 12:56
by SAJewers
In one of the twitch channels i'm subbed to, the rule has always been not to give unsolicited advice or talk about anything that hasn't been experienced on stream yet. Anyone who fails to follow that is either publicly shamed or immediately banned. I'd be fine with those rules being used here.

IMO unless raocow asks for help, or it's something that would have ramifications towards the LP (e.g. missing a secret exit or potentially getting locked out of content by doing something), spoiler it.

Also, while it might be good to have this discussion here, keep in mind there's youtube comments, and at least one discord server he's in.

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 30 Dec 2018, 14:37
by BobisOnlyBob
Wow, that was a really great level today! I really liked the part with the balloon and the bit with the colour gun, that was fun. I do think the level designer should be more careful with those overhangs though, that's a consistent problem I've seen so far

and it only gets worse from here until the last few levels, which thankfully don't have that problem



So here's some hints regarding where I think raocow should go next if he's lost:

it's really this simple to do and shouldn't be a problem if people pay attention and they should be muted or banned otherwise.



Here's some broader, long-form discussion of upcoming lore that I want to discuss with people without letting raocow know about the

water level

:
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Final warning for final boss content in case people haven't seen it:
it really is this simple, this took me less than two minutes and has categorized my thoughts with regard to audience - both raocow and other talkhausers - politely and respectfully without ruining the experience for anyone, while being both fun to write and not hiding the whole thing behind a spoiler tag when it's about past/current video content.

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 30 Dec 2018, 14:53
by Classtoise
Oh man I feel like this post was written by a more calm and even-handed version of me.

Anyone who's dared to scroll down on MMZ videos has probably seen me with this (And I do apologize for being kind of a complete ass). It happened all the time on Zero videos, and it's always frustrated me. Yes, there were times when I got frustrated with the earliest videos because it felt like "Here, let me tell you explicitly and in great detail the flaws this game has and how to ignore them so you'll think of it favorably". But the real problem is it doesn't matter if a game is good or bad with or without those flaws. I feel like the biggest issue was the defenses that arose from it. The generalized "No it's okay when I do it, I'm giving helpful advice" is the problem. The idea that people like to remove themselves from blame by excusing their own mistakes. Like, no I'm pretty sure it's the person you spoiled who gets to decide if that was okay, my dude. If someone tells me "You can jump on enemies to kill them", it's up to me whether or not that's okay. And a lot of people think they're cleverly avoiding it by saying "Oh, if only there was some way to destroy these enemies by blunt force trauma to the head with the bottom of your foot ;) ;) ;) :::;)"
And it gets really frustrating because some of the best parts of raocow LPs (in my opinion, anyway) is watching him discover for himself and become better at the game through his own hard work and initiative (and occasionally ignoring the actual answer and brute forcing it).
Ditocoaf wrote:
Sebby19 wrote: The reason I don't format my posts like that is because in my mind that is inherently contradictory. I'm basically going "I have something helpful I want to say!", and then immediately hide what I want to say (Unless it's an enormous text dump). It's all or nothing.
Your posts can be genuinely helpful, but let people decide whether they want that help. Please.

You've been asked this many times, by commonfolk, by mods, and if memory serves at least once by raocow himself. Which means that if you fail to give people that choice, if you continue to insist on forcing your help upon unwanting recipients, you are the one at fault, no matter differing preferences, differing viewpoints in our minds, "seeing eye-to-eye".
Very well put!

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 30 Dec 2018, 16:09
by Grounder
Classtoise wrote: If someone tells me "You can jump on enemies to kill them", it's up to me whether or not that's okay. And a lot of people think they're cleverly avoiding it by saying "Oh, if only there was some way to destroy these enemies by blunt force trauma to the head with the bottom of your foot ;) ;) ;) :::;)"
That is a freaking awful example considering the games rao plays.

And that in most games when jump to beat enemies is the solution, it's one of the primary ones it expects you to use, if not the only one.

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 30 Dec 2018, 20:04
by Leet
How literal-minded are you, it's just an example of how spoilers work, at all

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 30 Dec 2018, 20:16
by Chirei
Classtoise wrote: Anyone who's dared to scroll down on MMZ videos has probably seen me with this (And I do apologize for being kind of a complete ass). It happened all the time on Zero videos, and it's always frustrated me.
I'm probably guilty of this too, but honestly I think the only real bothersome thing that actually happened during MMZ is everyone telling raocow to use type B controls. He seemed alright with everything else, even surprisingly trying some of the crafting in Z4 which I absolutely did not expect. I very intentionally left out explaining it at the start of Z4 since grinding in an LP is usually a no-no.

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 30 Dec 2018, 20:25
by Grounder
Leet wrote: How literal-minded are you, it's just an example of how spoilers work, at all
We've previously established that even very basic gameplay hints are considered spoilers to a few people here.

See: Wario Land 3 ladder debacle.

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 30 Dec 2018, 20:31
by Ditocoaf
Grounder wrote:
Leet wrote: How literal-minded are you, it's just an example of how spoilers work, at all
We've previously established that even very basic gameplay hints are considered spoilers to a few people here.

See: Wario Land 3 ladder debacle.
Take what different people consider to be "spoilers" out of the equation: It's unasked-for help. Minor, in this case, so not a big deal, but it's also not hard to say "hey raocow there's a simple control thing you're missing that would save some time:

explanation of sliding down ladders here

". I think he'd be more likely to read something like that, because I think he's become prone to skimming or skipping too-eager-to-help posts.

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 30 Dec 2018, 20:47
by Shard1697
Ditocoaf wrote: Take what different people consider to be "spoilers" out of the equation: It's unasked-for help.
In that case this should probably be described in a rule as something like "don't give advice or direction unless it's asked for", because this forum is probably the only place I've ever seen people refer to anything besides revealing twist story elements as "spoilers".

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 30 Dec 2018, 22:32
by ano0maly
SAJewers wrote: In one of the twitch channels i'm subbed to, the rule has always been not to give unsolicited advice or talk about anything that hasn't been experienced on stream yet. Anyone who fails to follow that is either publicly shamed or immediately banned. I'd be fine with those rules being used here.
This isn't Twitch though. I guess the reason why it's discouraged to post such advice on Twitch streams is because it's distracting and it interferes with the player's live experience? But I don't think we should just import those rules on these forums. These videos are not a continuous live experience; they have clear breaks between videos.



Unsolicited advice is hard to define for the purposes of talkhaus. It may sound simple to prohibit "unasked-for help" w/o spoiler tags, but if you regularly visit the Megaman thread, you know people post unasked for information all the time. Maverick bios, weapon information, and QOL stuff. Sometimes giant walls of text. And they're explanations about stuff found in existing videos. And at a glance one might think, "This does somewhat resemble the 'tips' posted in Wario Land 3 or Rayman Origins." But people in ATMM don't have much of a problem with posting information that isn't spoiling yet unseen content.

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 30 Dec 2018, 23:00
by SAJewers
ano0maly wrote: I guess the reason why it's discouraged to post such advice on Twitch streams is because it's distracting and it interferes with the player's live experience?
It's largely the same reasons we're talking about here. Only real difference is that this isn't live, so it's easier for this to get caught and dealt with before it's seen here.

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 30 Dec 2018, 23:07
by Ditocoaf
The Megaman thread is always the example for "backseat gaming is fine there", and I'm not keeping up with those videos or reading that thread so I can't really say whether I'd agree the posts are fine, but I think you can draw a difference between All The Megamen and rao's other LPs.

All The Megamen started with raocow playing some games that he already knew quite well, and it's continuing from those. Its fundamental backbone isn't "let's experience what this game is, via raocow's first play", it's "let's make our way through every single game in this huge series as one giant LP". It's... a self-dare, a feat of dedication. I'm reluctant to try to force consistency between it and anything else, because it's crazy and unique.

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 30 Dec 2018, 23:13
by ano0maly
SAJewers wrote:
ano0maly wrote: I guess the reason why it's discouraged to post such advice on Twitch streams is because it's distracting and it interferes with the player's live experience?
It's largely the same reasons we're talking about here. Only real difference is that this isn't live, so it's easier for this to get caught and dealt with before it's seen here.
But I'm putting emphasis on that difference. In a live chat it would be not only distracting to the streamer, but impractical for everyone, to post advice and details about everything. But in a recorded format that is discussed on forums, people have a lot more to say and the structure makes that practical.
Ditocoaf wrote: All The Megamen started with raocow playing some games that he already knew quite well, and it's continuing from those. Its fundamental backbone isn't "let's experience what this game is, via raocow's first play", it's "let's make our way through every single one of this huge series as one giant LP". It's... a self-dare, a feat of dedication. I'm reluctant to try to force consistency between it and anything else, because it's crazy and unique.
Some of the Megaman playthroughs were actually blind (such as Zero). That was quite different from playing Classic games with self-imposed stipulations like reverse boss order; it was in fact "experiencing this fun game for the first time".