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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 12 Jan 2019, 12:54
by SAJewers
If raocow asks for help, he can ask for it and we can give it to him. If he doesn't ask for help, don't help him. Keep in mind he once put Bunny Must Die on hold due to backseating. Let's avoid that situation again.

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 12 Jan 2019, 12:57
by Voltgloss
thatguyif wrote: I will say this much:
La-Mulana, he's gonna need some help. That game has more than a few puzzles that have absolutely no clear and obvious solutions. And by "absolutely no clear and obvious solutions" I mean "you literally have to stumble upon the answer with zero context or clues if you're doing this blind. And said answer often has a very tenuous connection to the puzzle at best, makes no sense at worst."
Please cite specific examples (under spoiler tags). Or better yet, PM them to me.

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 12 Jan 2019, 13:39
by Zummorr
Implo wrote:
thatguyif wrote: I will say this much:
La-Mulana, he's gonna need some help. That game has more than a few puzzles that have absolutely no clear and obvious solutions. And by "absolutely no clear and obvious solutions" I mean "you literally have to stumble upon the answer with zero context or clues if you're doing this blind. And said answer often has a very tenuous connection to the puzzle at best, makes no sense at worst."

If we hold fast to a no spoiler/backseat gaming rule here, he is not going to finish that game at all. Is that what you want?
First of all don't underestimate raocow.
Voltgloss wrote: Please cite specific examples (under spoiler tags). Or better yet, PM them to me.
raocow is going to need hints. Period. Small things like "You have everything you need for this puzzle" or "This hint applies to a puzzle you already solved." would go a long way to helping.
But he's also going to need accept that he will need explore, and re-explore areas knowing that he will

have to trail and error puzzles and attack when the eye of judgement is around.

This game fully expects you to wander aimlessly and bump into solutions.

The Entrance to the Tower of the Goddess and the Dimensional Corridor are examples of this.



In particular the puzzles that are referred to here are. Major Caution about reading this Spoilers!

The Gate of Illusion Maze, where the solution is to press Down in a specific place, in a game where pressing down does nothing except climb down ladders. The Fruit of Eden in the Temple of Moonlight where the solution is to spam the hand scanner on a bunch of annoying places, the First Mantra, although the mantras in general are dumb and usually solved by mechanically going through every room and saying the correct mantra, the first mantra however is notable because its placement is different due to being an exception to rule. But there's a bunch of absurd puzzles, like unlocking Big Brother's Shop, Xelpud stopping the pillar, filling the Tower of the Goddess, the Chamber of Birth in general, Summmoning Mushussu. Locating the Dragon Statue, Fighting Anzu, or Counting in La-malanese



Those are the problematic puzzles that stick out in my mind.

But bigger than that is being overwhelmed with puzzles that you don't know if you can solve or not. And not being sure where what hints apply where.

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 12 Jan 2019, 16:17
by Sebby19
Wasn't the plan for La-Mulana to have whoever is hosting the topic (I forgot who, sorry), to be the ONLY designated hint giver?
That might be a good idea. Then we can trust this one guy's judgement, while everyone else shuts up.

Second, I'm unsure how blind the LP will be. Who hasn't seen at least a portion of DeceasedCrab's three LPs?

And concerning the spoiled stuff Zummorr put down: Do we know if raocow is playing the old version, or the remake?

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 12 Jan 2019, 16:31
by Zummorr
Sebby19 wrote: Do we know if raocow is playing the old version, or the remake?
I'm certain it would be the remake, since the old version is far stupider.

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 12 Jan 2019, 19:32
by Voltgloss
Sebby19 wrote: Wasn't the plan for La-Mulana to have whoever is hosting the topic (I forgot who, sorry), to be the ONLY designated hint giver?
That might be a good idea. Then we can trust this one guy's judgement, while everyone else shuts up.
You're partially right, partially not. I'm hosting the thread. But I wasn't planning to be a "designated hint giver." Rather, what I plan to do is, essentially, be raocow's dedicated note-taker. I am going to keep updated in the first few posts of the thread a record of all the hints raocow has seen, the maps he's obtained, and the areas he's seen but hasn't yet explored. The idea is NOT to give him any hints outside of the game - but rather to make it easy for him to look back on the bits and pieces he's gathered and use that ever-growing repository of information to solve puzzles himself.

I, personally, don't plan to give hints - of any kind - unless raocow specifically asks. If he does, I'll put as subtle clue(s) as I can offer in spoilers.

Speaking only for myself, I don't mind if others post hints or clues for La-Mulana in the La-Mulana thread so long as they are hidden behind spoilers. If raocow decides he wants to use those, he's can break the seal and do so.

I do care if people post unspoilered hints, clues, nudges, advice, tips, "quality of life" notes, etc. I am guardedly hopeful no one will do this.
I also care if people post spoilers about the sequel without clearly marking them as spoilers for La-Mulana 2. I am likewise guardedly hopeful no one will do this.

If raocow and/or the board at large decides they do want one person to be the sole dedicated hint-giver, I can take that mantle. But to be clear, I'm not asking for this, nor do I expect it will be necessary.
Sebby19 wrote: Second, I'm unsure how blind the LP will be. Who hasn't seen at least a portion of DeceasedCrab's three LPs?
I think DeceasedCrab's LP is irrelevant, but maybe not for the reason you expect. I say this because raocow has seen Isocitration's LP of La-Mulana. (This isn't a guess, it's fact. raocow posted comments on many if not all of Iso's La-Mulana videos). So, might raocow recognize something from watching Iso's LP and thus have some inadvertent advance knowledge already in his pocket? Yes, entirely possible. Might he remember nothing at all? Also entirely possible - iso's LP was, what, 5 years ago? Regardless, I still think we should keep any hints/advice/etc. behind spoilers.
Sebby19 wrote: And concerning the spoiled stuff Zummorr put down: Do we know if raocow is playing the old version, or the remake?
I've played both to completion and strongly recommend he play the remake.

Zummorr, thanks for citing specific examples. I agree the puzzles you cite are difficult. I respectfully dispute their characterization as "absurd" because the puzzles, while difficult, are nevertheless clued. Sometimes quite extensively. As part of preparing for the LP I am taking those examples - and others I think are particularly tricky - and organizing ahead of time exactly which clues and hints are needed to solve them, so that if raocow requests a nudge I can offer the barest minimum needed. I may send you a PM as I'm doing this to request your further thoughts as I'm organizing this information. Thanks.

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 12 Jan 2019, 21:09
by Leet
this is maybe the sixth time sebby has brought up deceased crab's LP in this context and been responded to with "no, Isocitration"

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 12 Jan 2019, 21:17
by Ditocoaf
"raocow will need help" doesn't mean "raocow will need help that isn't in spoiler tags". The entire point of spoiler tags is that they can be clicked on to read their contents. Label your advice, and he can click on what he decides he needs.

La-Mulana being harder just means he'll more likely have to resort to reading the spoilers, not that we should stop tagging them.

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 12 Jan 2019, 23:08
by Zummorr
Voltgloss wrote: Zummorr, thanks for citing specific examples. I agree the puzzles you cite are difficult. I respectfully dispute their characterization as "absurd" because the puzzles, while difficult, are nevertheless clued. Sometimes quite extensively. As part of preparing for the LP I am taking those examples - and others I think are particularly tricky - and organizing ahead of time exactly which clues and hints are needed to solve them, so that if raocow requests a nudge I can offer the barest minimum needed. I may send you a PM as I'm doing this to request your further thoughts as I'm organizing this information. Thanks.
Feel free to PM me. Although I may need to replay the game to double check the information.

The clues are not apparent for all the puzzles.

NOTHING in game tell you seek Xelpud's help for the falling pillar puzzle. Outside of the early game Xelpud doesn't offer much assistance and mainly serves as a source of jokes.Even when he offers to help his text message is vague as to which puzzle he is even referring to Counterpoint Xelpud offers some information on items when he isn't joking on you. Maybe he emails you about the pillar?

There is nothing that indicates the Tower of the Goddess entrance appears on the surface after beating Viy there's not even a subtly different wall texture or anything. And there's no real reason to want to go to the surface, except for hotsprings, after beating Viy anyways. Xelpud trolls you with emails after you beat bosses anyways.

Compass/mantra puzzle's "Logic" for the room location of the wedges requires understanding the 4x4 nature of the ruins which doesn't make sense unless you read the instruction booklet. Or just brute forcing it, since which area and which mantra you need to speak in it makes sense, just not which room.

I don't think there's a tablet that talks of the hidden shop in the Chamber of Birth, and I don't recall if GUILD chimes in that room.

I don't remember a tablet or email for the super fast flying fish in the Tower of Ruin.

There are also hints which may not show up or show up only once. Yeah I know recording, this is kinda relevant because raocow being raocow has buttoned through dialogue, even though they do give the option to repeat it

Mulbruk's dialogue about Mulbruk's Escape Passage.

Gate of Illusion ghosts showing the hidden skeleton Dias and the passable wall at the end of the maze of illusion puzzle. [Outside of the logic that nothing is as it appears in the Gate of Illusion]

Not sure if the elders have any critical one time only information.

Also keep in mind this game likes to murderize/force teleports out with no warnings whatsoever.



Thats what is off the top of my head.There are other puzzles in the game which I know the hints and solutions for, but I still don't like.

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 13 Jan 2019, 07:08
by Sebby19
Leet wrote: this is maybe the sixth time sebby has brought up deceased crab's LP in this context and been responded to with "no, Isocitration"
I admit I've mentioned DC's LPs too many times, but maybe only the 3rd time I had to be reminded of Iso.

Eithet way, sorry about that.

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 13 Jan 2019, 13:26
by BobisOnlyBob
While we're on the topic of La-Mulana, I feel there's one warning raocow really needs before the beginning, similar to his recent thing about how consciously choosing to change his attitude helped in All the Mega Men Gaiden.

La-Mulana is menuing-heavy, and frequently expects you to swap weapons, items, enable and disable programs, and read things saved in notes and other menu tabs. raocow is extremely menu-averse to the point it affects his ability to solve things which require pulling out to menus frequently. I think this is a safe thing to warn him about in the La-Mulana thread topic opening, so he can calibrate his expectations appropriately on that front, as it's been an issue before and if he goes in without knowing it may cause a lot of negative experiences further down the line. However, this is still general advice and may want to be concealed - I just have concerns that without priming on this specific aspect, he'll run into mood-ruining trouble due to the UI rather than enjoyable/absurd challenges. But, as per Iso's LP, he may already know...



Anyway, that's irrelevant to the actual topic of backseating. I'll leave that in Voltgloss' hands. nyoro~n

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 13 Jan 2019, 14:15
by Kilgamayan
Unrelated, but are there actually thread hosting signups or a preordained list or something ?_? I hope my hosting Rabi-Ribi (and my desire to host Iconoclasts) was/is not secretly stepping on anyone's toes

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 13 Jan 2019, 14:20
by BobisOnlyBob
Nah thread hosting is usually a matter of "who gets there first" but when it comes to a much-hyped game with someone clearly passionate about it, it makes sense that they nab it and host. I never expected to host Ori and the Blind Forest, it's not my top Metroidvania by any measure, but I really enjoyed doing it all the same and doing my own thread gimmick.

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 14 Jan 2019, 13:07
by Kilgamayan
Okey-dokey, thank you for letting me know

(Now I hope I am not stepping on anyone else's toes for wanting to host Iconoclasts <_<)

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 14 Jan 2019, 13:12
by Sebby19
I'll arm wrestle you for it.

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 20 Jan 2019, 00:49
by YelseyKing
Personally, I think people have started taking the "LP thread host" role *far* too seriously. The only thing the person who made the thread should do is put a list of videos up. There doesn't need to be any kind of grand ceremony, or acknowledgement as "The One True Hint Giver". It's just a thread to discuss a guy who plays video games.

That said... I had a thought. Would it be a good idea to have a special sub-forum of this one just as an archive of the many, many threads for raocow's LPs? Most of them are never revisited (and can easily be moved back to the main LP forum if need be), and I thought it might be nice to have them all in one handy location, not mixed in with other peoples' LP threads, for easier searching. Thoughts?

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 20 Jan 2019, 01:04
by Grounder
YelseyKing wrote: Personally, I think people have started taking the "LP thread host" role *far* too seriously. The only thing the person who made the thread should do is put a list of videos up. There doesn't need to be any kind of grand ceremony, or acknowledgement as "The One True Hint Giver". It's just a thread to discuss a guy who plays video games.

That said... I had a thought. Would it be a good idea to have a special sub-forum of this one just as an archive of the many, many threads for raocow's LPs? Most of them are never revisited (and can easily be moved back to the main LP forum if need be), and I thought it might be nice to have them all in one handy location, not mixed in with other peoples' LP threads, for easier searching. Thoughts?
nah

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 20 Jan 2019, 02:22
by ano0maly
I think making a subforum is just going to make it more inconvenient. If you have something to add to a thread or need to bump it up, you would need to have it manually moved again instead of just posting in it. Sometimes threads get necroed because raocow is returning to a game after an update, or simply because there's something new about the game.

If we really wanted to, we could just have a LP list thread that links to other threads. Probably implemented via a solution other than making a new pinned topic in the let's play forum since we have enough of those already.

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 20 Jan 2019, 04:26
by YelseyKing
ano0maly wrote: I think making a subforum is just going to make it more inconvenient. If you have something to add to a thread or need to bump it up, you would need to have it manually moved again instead of just posting in it. Sometimes threads get necroed because raocow is returning to a game after an update, or simply because there's something new about the game.

If we really wanted to, we could just have a LP list thread that links to other threads. Probably implemented via a solution other than making a new pinned topic in the let's play forum since we have enough of those already.
Actually, I like your idea even better. Someone needs to do that. I will in a couple days, if no one else bothers.
Grounder wrote: nah
You, on the other hand... that was a *remarkably* unhelpful answer. Congratulations. Don't even respond if you have nothing worthwhile to say.

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 20 Jan 2019, 04:34
by Awoo
Probably completely unrelated, but I thought I'd chip in:

I don't necro threads, but I do love to copy the subject lines from old threads when I bump new ones and post referencing the old threads. It's fun and I want to make fun around here :3


Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 20 Jan 2019, 04:37
by ano0maly
I feel it confuses people, to be honest

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 20 Jan 2019, 04:44
by YelseyKing
Awoo wrote: Probably completely unrelated, but I thought I'd chip in:

I don't necro threads, but I do love to copy the subject lines from old threads when I bump new ones and post referencing the old threads. It's fun and I want to make fun around here :3

I admit, it's kind of funny, but like ano said, it is kind of confusing, and makes me think you're responding to a completely different thread or starting a new one entirely. Granted, that's probably the *point*, but still. :P

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 20 Jan 2019, 04:47
by Grounder
YelseyKing wrote:
Grounder wrote: nah
You, on the other hand... that was a *remarkably* unhelpful answer. Congratulations. Don't even respond if you have nothing worthwhile to say.
i'm not gonna paragraph for a simple "i don't like this arbitrary change"

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 20 Jan 2019, 05:03
by ano0maly
but I did

Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Posted: 20 Jan 2019, 05:20
by Awoo
YelseyKing wrote:
Awoo wrote: Probably completely unrelated, but I thought I'd chip in:

I don't necro threads, but I do love to copy the subject lines from old threads when I bump new ones and post referencing the old threads. It's fun and I want to make fun around here :3

I admit, it's kind of funny, but like ano said, it is kind of confusing, and makes me think you're responding to a completely different thread or starting a new one entirely. Granted, that's probably the *point*, but still. :P
I could always stop, if you'd like. I just wanna have something that adds an element of fun, but I don't have a problem if it makes it less disruptive to not change the subject line :'3