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Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

this is the place where lps are being talked about. it's important to talk about games being played on the internet.
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Leet
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Leet » 7 months ago

What a convincing argument
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Cyril » 7 months ago

Sebby19 wrote: Man, sometimes I feel you guys take a grain of sand and run with it.

just tag your spoilers dammit

i've honestly never played a video game in my life

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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Gardenolva » 7 months ago

DOUBLE COAT THOSE SPOILERS PLS

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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Ditocoaf » 7 months ago

When I saw that post by you Sebby, I wanted to reply "raocow can figure out for himself that he needs to check around the world for pepperable faces, jeez. let him". I didn't even notice you explicitly said "the beginning" lol. I was on the bus and figured someone would report the post before I could get around to typing anything, and later that day I was relieved to see your post in black bars.

you've got to know by now that often the hints you give are less subtle than you feel like they are.

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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Chirei » 7 months ago

Sebby19 wrote: Well if you really want them to tell you what's spoilered, maybe don't black out the entire post at all? Cause I doubt the reporter cares what happens.
I'm the one that flagged the post.

Voltgloss and Ditocoaf have already basically explained it before I could, so let me just say this even though you probably already know.

It's hard to limit yourself when trying to express your thoughts about something you really like. I have to dance around this all the time when I discuss VNs while reading along with friends since I read faster than them. I even worry that I might be overstepping my enthusiasm sometimes in AtMM.

It's hard, but you have to try if people tell you something's wrong. Especially since there was explicit notion given to not say anything that could possibly influence raocow to go or act a certain way in the next segment, so you need to take a moment before hitting that post button and see if it could be read in that way. If it's not me next time, it's going to be someone else if they see something that falls along those lines.

I do not intend for this to come off as mean or condescending, I'm just expressing my concern.

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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby SAJewers » 7 months ago

TBF I could totally see that being an accident, I probably would've said the same thing if I cared to say anything/leave helpful comments for raocow (which I'm purposefully avoiding because good lord am I finding this entire thing insufferable now)
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Mata Hari » 7 months ago

If there was a mod who was actually familiar with Mulan then that would help, that's why I just black out posts.

Also if there was a firmer policy on what actually constitutes spoilers, even if it's always gonna be pretty subjective. How much has raocow himself spoken on the issue?

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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Chirei » 7 months ago

Mata Hari wrote: Also if there was a firmer policy on what actually constitutes spoilers, even if it's always gonna be pretty subjective. How much has raocow himself spoken on the issue?
Straight up no help unless he decides he's had enough of the current section and tries to tap out for assistance.

Also regardless of that, Sebby has, in his own words, forfeited all rights to being of any unwanted help, and that includes veiled hints. So people expect him to live up to the rule even harder than others:
Sebby19 wrote: Don't worry rao, I won't be helping this time. You did this to youself when you chose this game. La-Mulana will chew you up, spit you out, and the slurp you back off the floor. Your screams of agony and confusion will echo through the unforgiving walls, nourishing them. The puzzles, riddles, and tedium will crack and splinter your brain, easy fodder for the monsters and gaurdians.
I don't want you to miss out on these experiences. And you did this to yourself.

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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Kilgamayan » 7 months ago

Mata Hari wrote: Also if there was a firmer policy on what actually constitutes spoilers, even if it's always gonna be pretty subjective
As a La-Mulana band-aid, I'd suggest punting the wording of such a policy to Voltgloss and just enforce whatever he says.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Sebby19 » 7 months ago

Chirei wrote: Also regardless of that, Sebby has, in his own words, forfeited all rights to being of any unwanted help, and that includes veiled hints. So people expect him to live up to the rule even harder than others:
Sebby19 wrote: Don't worry rao, I won't be helping this time. You did this to youself when you chose this game. La-Mulana will chew you up, spit you out, and the slurp you back off the floor. Your screams of agony and confusion will echo through the unforgiving walls, nourishing them. The puzzles, riddles, and tedium will crack and splinter your brain, easy fodder for the monsters and gaurdians.
I don't want you to miss out on these experiences. And you did this to yourself.
Last night I remembered that post of mine on my own, and went: 'Ah crap, I did go back on that, huh...'

As to what Kilga says, I agree. Even before the LP began, I threw out the idea of Voltgloss being the designated and sole hint giver.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby repairmanman » 7 months ago

Not going to lie, but comparatively, i think ending spoilers are much worse than backseat gaming.
If you do one thing, don't spoil twists in endings outside of spoiler tags.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Lostsoldier20 » 7 months ago

That's been a huge problem in ProtonJon streams too. He's been doing a lot of blind game clearing and I think every single game so far (He's done one game from A-G so far) he's had some major thing spoiled, including endings. Multiple other times it was

the existence of multiple endings.

Spoilered just incase someone checks out what he's been doing, sees a game they wanna remain unspoiled in, and might put 2 and 2 together to which games the spoiler refers to.

Basically, unless it's "man I love/hate the ending" I try not to talk about endings.
I'm an idiot who likes vidya games.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Grounder » 5 months ago

I'm fucking sick of this happening every two weeks.

I really wish rao would close the comments and leave the Talkhaus behind so we could never have this discussion again.
Why don't you eat me?

I am perfectly tasty...

AND I'LL STEAL YOUR SOUL! :twisted:

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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Leet » 5 months ago

Let me sum up my thoughts about the m+l thread.

Everything anomaly was posting, and consequentially every counter-argument, was completely irrelevant. Debating whether there's really that much backseating going is moot when the LPer said there was. Debating whether people who call out backseating really have a grasp on the situation is irrelevant when the LPer is the one calling out the backseating. Of course, anomaly wasn't going to outright argue with the LPer, so instead they just... I don't know, pretended that wasn't what was going on? And argued with/brought up posts from other people who were saying the exact same thing as/merely agreeing with the LPer.

When the LPer says there's too much backseating (for at least the third time this LP), there is! That's not up for debate.

Sebby also posted tone-deaf rude shit but that's normal.
Well it is a decent hack but sometime its just too repetitif there no level that actually pop in your face and your like oh yeah that level they all ressemble themselves and just monster along the way.
Blood Ghoul wrote:Sometimes it seems my blood spurts out in gobs, as if it were a fountain's pulsing sobs. I clearly hear it mutter as it goes yet cannot find the wound from which it flows. Before I met you, baby, I didn't know what I was missing.

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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby warpio » 5 months ago

I've seen enough LPs/streams of stuff like this to know that backseating is inevitable with adventure/RPG games when the game is as popular as this. With puzzle/platformer games it tends to not be as bad because the audiences of those games generally like seeing the LPer struggle and get stumped. But with adventure/RPG type games I think people tend to prefer seeing a comprehensive playthrough so that they can fully re-experience the game through the LP, and they see the LPer missing things and use that as an opportunity to flex their knowledge or direct the playthrough to make it more ideal, and don't care as much about seeing the LPer figure things out on their own. It sucks but I guess that's just the reality of games like this.

I don't think it's necessary to close comments. If you're the type of LPer that just can't help but read your comment sections right away and don't want to get someone to moderate/screen them first, then I think the best solution is to play several days ahead of your uploads, in secret if you have to. It makes it a bit more like a solo non-LP playthrough which is how you're meant to experience the game anyway.

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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby ano0maly » 5 months ago

I don't think the situation needs to be that dire. The Superstar Saga thread did not need to become so ugly. It could have remained a constructive chat about the matter, and I'm saddened by how it turned out.

My explanation for the fight last night for those who care:
I was basically expressing that Mandew's challenge to Sebby - question about what "let's play" implies - already got relevant posts that answer it.

I wasn't comfortable with the response with "you all" because it sounded too accusatory towards everyone, even though I just expressed that there is indeed some problem with people getting too excited about the game to watch what they share in comments. It also sounded like everything we were doing here was out to ruin raocow's experience when that wasn't quite the case - there was ample constructive discussion that didn't go to inappropriate levels of hand-holding.

My brining up the ATMM analogy is I guess venting my frustration. The analogy was meant to convey that it is possible for a discussion thread to be informative without ordering the player around, but I was frustrated that the last few times I wanted to show that to the other person, it wasn't really applicable because that person wasn't in the ATMM thread and likely was not aware of how it went. I can't force the person to read the thread in retrospect; I can only try to explain how it was via testimony.

There also seemed to be posts, and responses to those posts, that were making overly generalized statements that have below them some valid point even if the statements themselves are objectionable at face value. But the generalizations mask those actual points and are not helping the thread tone.

As for what Leet just said: it's basically as I said in my original post. I have mixed thoughts: I'm not denying that there's been a problem but I'm also pushing back at the seeming notion that normal discussion that was at acceptable levels is also part of that problem.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby SAJewers » 5 months ago

I should probably note, now that i'm looking at this a bit more closely, this is more of an issue with the YT comments than the talkhaus thread (though some are imo getting a bit too close to backseating)
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Gardenolva » 5 months ago

After hearing the intro of today's video, guess the YT comments were more chaotic in terms of backseating Superstar Saga than in here. Luckily, raocow doesn't read much YT comments I guess.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Mandew » 5 months ago

warpio wrote: I've seen enough LPs/streams of stuff like this to know that backseating is inevitable with adventure/RPG games when the game is as popular as this. With puzzle/platformer games it tends to not be as bad because the audiences of those games generally like seeing the LPer struggle and get stumped. But with adventure/RPG type games I think people tend to prefer seeing a comprehensive playthrough so that they can fully re-experience the game through the LP, and they see the LPer missing things and use that as an opportunity to flex their knowledge or direct the playthrough to make it more ideal, and don't care as much about seeing the LPer figure things out on their own. It sucks but I guess that's just the reality of games like this.
here's my problem with this situation;
1. As far as interactions go, backseating to "re-live the game" through raocow is quite selfish as a behavior, considering that:
---- a) this is a blind LP. All this backseating is to the direct detriment to raocow's experience
---- b) it also goes to the detriment to everyone who seeked to "re-live the game" by basking in raocow's reactions to surprises.
---- --- With this much backseating going around, the amount of remaining surprises are getting extremely limited.

2. Now I don't have numbers or anything, but I'm preeeeeeetty sure the amount of people who go around backseating is downright minuscule compared to those who want to just see raocow have a good time, and even to those who would rather see raocow play this as blind as possible. So even a "the needs of one is outweighed by the needs of many" is impossible to sustain in favor of backseating.

3. Yeah, people do backseat. No, it doesn't have to be like that. I've been to streams that manage to uphold the no backseating rule. Actually, those are the only streams I can stand. Just generally, it doesn't have to be this way.

4. The backseating doesn't even have to cease completely. What I as a person would prefer is that backseaters would ease up and actually show, just, a little bit of faith towards raocow and the game.

Heck, forget raocow here for a minute. If anything, just showing faith towards just the game itself would be good enough for me.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby KobaBeach » 5 months ago

warpio wrote: It sucks but I guess that's just the reality of games like this.
that doesnt make it okay though?

I'm a huge fan of 2D Sonic, you don't see me backseating and telling raocow how to properly play Sonic. I just watch for his experience with the games. Even Nast's post about using momentum to rao's advantage was just an advice on reaching stuff raocow had issues with, raocow didnt have to follow it.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby warpio » 5 months ago

yeah I get you. I was just talking from a more practical standpoint as I don't necessarily know that the problem can be fully solved in all cases. but yeah I agree 100% on principle with what Mandew is saying.

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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby churine » 5 months ago

so I was thinking, you know how in mario romhacks some people like play along or to a level raocow didn't show some super cool secret and actually make a video of it and post it?

I think that's a really good approach instead of just saying there's this thing to check or nudging raocow into it or whatever
of course in many of those cases is more of "raocow literally does not have the skill to do these weird frame glitch whatever tricks"

of course this doesn't work for when it comes from "raocow is playing the game wrong", but having extras to showcase things raocow misses instead of telling him about it (and that therefore he can ignore) seems good

With "raocow playing the game wrong" you're supposed to take the situations he gets himself into as a result as his playthrough, unless he expressly asks for help figuring he's not gettng something; he himself has expressed he'd rather have people laugh when he's having trouble than the game being boring!
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Blivsey » 5 months ago

You know what else is really bothering me? People saying "well [this other LPer or streamer who does games blind] is okay with backseating!". Like... raocow is raocow? and not them? And if he makes it clear he doesn't want people telling him Exactly How to play a game, then, like... don't? It's wild how many people seem to think they should stand their ground and be like "okay but THIS advice is an exception because I think it's important" (and I say this as someone who has definitely done this before, it's easy to do).

I'm still planning on having a very short "cleanup" list ready with

all the hidden Monty Moles that give super-good rewards

but... I'm also willing to back off on that if rao doesn't want it since it's his call.

Also, this shouldn't even need saying, but... directly deriding raocow's skill, as people have been doing, is just asking to be disliked.
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby KobaBeach » 5 months ago

i just read the thread and i am extremely fucking insulted at the people trying to defend the ability to be able to backseat raocow like The Man Is Telling You To Stop
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Re: Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

Postby Classtoise » 5 months ago

ano0maly wrote: I don't think the situation needs to be that dire. The Superstar Saga thread did not need to become so ugly. It could have remained a constructive chat about the matter, and I'm saddened by how it turned out.

My explanation for the fight last night for those who care:
I was basically expressing that Mandew's challenge to Sebby - question about what "let's play" implies - already got relevant posts that answer it.

I wasn't comfortable with the response with "you all" because it sounded too accusatory towards everyone, even though I just expressed that there is indeed some problem with people getting too excited about the game to watch what they share in comments. It also sounded like everything we were doing here was out to ruin raocow's experience when that wasn't quite the case - there was ample constructive discussion that didn't go to inappropriate levels of hand-holding.

My brining up the ATMM analogy is I guess venting my frustration. The analogy was meant to convey that it is possible for a discussion thread to be informative without ordering the player around, but I was frustrated that the last few times I wanted to show that to the other person, it wasn't really applicable because that person wasn't in the ATMM thread and likely was not aware of how it went. I can't force the person to read the thread in retrospect; I can only try to explain how it was via testimony.

There also seemed to be posts, and responses to those posts, that were making overly generalized statements that have below them some valid point even if the statements themselves are objectionable at face value. But the generalizations mask those actual points and are not helping the thread tone.

As for what Leet just said: it's basically as I said in my original post. I have mixed thoughts: I'm not denying that there's been a problem but I'm also pushing back at the seeming notion that normal discussion that was at acceptable levels is also part of that problem.
I feel like you're vastly overstating your hand in that. Instead of just a simple "Hey I mentioned here (link)", but the way you phrased it (insinuating they "conveniently" missed it) was a bit loaded.

And tossing my hat in the ring, I agree; raocow needs to be allowed to experience this for the first time. People blurting out information un-asked for is not only rude, he's asked you to stop several times now. In the past, and in this LP. But it feels like so many people, every LP, just come back with the mindset "Surely, THIS TIME it's okay if I spoil everything. It wasn't okay the last 38 games, but surely #39 is the change!!! Maybe it'll be #40! Maybe it'll be..."

Like, newsflash, guys. It won't be. Until he OUTRIGHT ASKS, you should not be spoiling anything that was not revealed or discovered by raocow.

And if, at the end of the day, you disagree with me or Mandew or Koba or whoever and at the end of the day you feel like it is your god given right to spoil this game, then at the very least remember: raocow has asked you to stop. No matter how okay you think it is, you've been asked to stop by the reason you're here, dawg. Heed his words, if no one elses.


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