Spoilers & Backseat Gaming Problem Discussion

[KobaBeach]

that person is me and i am very clearly talking about people who go out and say subjective nonsense like "hard games aren't fun" or shitposting bullshit like this


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[freshtalk]

I agree those kind of comment suck, and I'm sure there are others who do too. Even if people don't reply with 'yeah me too', you needn't assume people are brushing your comments under the rug. Sorry to hear, and I hope the most positive input out there can still stick out despite all that bad nonsense.

[KobaBeach]

I guess it's just that... People just post things without caring about the author's feelings simply because they made a "mean level" and that's like, really shitty, i feel. Makes me worried about putting my own foot forward and that's what gets to me.

[AUS]

so what do u want us to do about it

[KobaBeach]

Stop assuming the worst out of game devs (hacking or otherwise) everytime raocow has a shit fit over something he has trouble with? And this is a request that also applies to people in other places too (kaizo community etc). It's not that hard.

[BobisOnlyBob]

I think there's a vast difference between the shallow, rude, petty comments which just need to be blocked and ignored whenever they come up (because you can't fight the tide of literal children and immature "critics" judging you via your levels with harsh language) and the people who say something like "I feel like this level doesn't respect the player's time" but extrapolate that to "wow, the author really doesn't have any respect for the player's time". I think we'd all do better to reign in comments like the latter and stick to judging and critiquing the levels rather than their creators. Guilty of this myself many times, trying to catch myself before leaving flippant comments like that nowadays.

If people are throwing around shitty criticisms and leaving threatening comments directed at authors then they need to be blocked, muted, banned and otherwise better moderated, because I just don't see that as behaviour that can be counteracted by simply asking them not to.

[The Doctor]

that person is me and i am very clearly talking about people who go out and say subjective nonsense like "hard games aren't fun" or shitposting bullshit like this


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You're putting together two comments that really shouldn't go together. The comment in the image is bad, yes, but saying "hard games aren't fun" is perfectly fine. I'm really not sure why you'd get upset over someone not liking hard games. People are allowed -- no, people should be encouraged -- to express their opinions. The only rule is that comments shouldn't get personal and attack the creator, but the game itself is fine to comment on.

[Mandew]

I think there's a vast difference between the shallow, rude, petty comments which just need to be blocked and ignored whenever they come up (because you can't fight the tide of literal children and immature "critics" judging you via your levels with harsh language) and the people who say something like "I feel like this level doesn't respect the player's time" but extrapolate that to "wow, the author really doesn't have any respect for the player's time". I think we'd all do better to reign in comments like the latter and stick to judging and critiquing the levels rather than their creators. Guilty of this myself many times, trying to catch myself before leaving flippant comments like that nowadays.

If people are throwing around shitty criticisms and leaving threatening comments directed at authors then they need to be blocked, muted, banned and otherwise better moderated, because I just don't see that as behaviour that can be counteracted by simply asking them not to.

I think it's worth keeping in mind that a level (or any other piece of art) can say something completely different than what the author intends. Once something is released onto the world, it has its own, definitive voice. It's a distinction I need to be better at emphasizing, myself.

Sometimes I do have problems with some authors' attitudes, but that's more relevant of how they speak outside of the game.

As for the "difficult = unfun" shtick, I think that kind of point of contention exists to spite the "easy = unfun" shtick that some others may have. It's quite the circle of spite.

[Duker]

but saying "hard games aren't fun" is perfectly fine. I'm really not sure why you'd get upset over someone not liking hard games. People are allowed -- no, people should be encouraged -- to express their opinions.

But thing is "hard games aren't fun", when phrased similarly to it, isn't stating as an opinion, it's stating a fact. It's impossible to say if it's meant to say "hard games aren't fun to me" or the actual factual statement that's trampling on people that disagrees with the alleged fact.

[The Doctor]

but saying "hard games aren't fun" is perfectly fine. I'm really not sure why you'd get upset over someone not liking hard games. People are allowed -- no, people should be encouraged -- to express their opinions.

But thing is "hard games aren't fun", when phrased similarly to it, isn't stating as an opinion, it's stating a fact. It's impossible to say if it's meant to say "hard games aren't fun to me" or the actual factual statement that's trampling on people that disagrees with the alleged fact.

To be honest this reads as you being a bit insecure. Look, I get it, occasionally a person will insult something I like and I get defensive and take it as a personal insult. Maybe someone will say "super heroes are garbage. I can't stand all that make-believe nonsense" and I'll think "But I love super heroes! I love escapist fantasy! If you insult that thing I love then you must be insulting me because that's a part of who I am. How dare you? HOW DARE YOU!?" But you know what, that's on me. They aren't saying that to offend you. They're most likely not even thinking about you or anyone else at all. Is it possible they secretly harbour disdain for everyone who thinks differently from them? Sure, you but can't go around thinking the worst of people like that.

True story by the way. My boss at my last job really hated super heroes and fantasy and we didn't share many tastes in common. Cool guy though.

[AUS]

Stop assuming the worst out of game devs (hacking or otherwise) everytime raocow has a shit fit over something he has trouble with? And this is a request that also applies to people in other places too (kaizo community etc). It's not that hard.

no my question was actually what do u want us to do about the problem of rude commenters existing. cuz friend i dont think we have the power to stop that from happening, and if that's enough disincentivization that u wanna stop making levels or w/e then that's firmly up to you and i wish you luck with whatever u choose.

edit: also, Duker, ppl dont have to say "in my opinion" before stating their opinions for it to be an opinion. "hard games arent fun" is a statement of opinion, just automatically. just so you know. fyi

[Leet]

"hard games aren't fun"/"i don't think hard games are fun" on its own isn't really bad in itself but we also live in a world where there's a hell of a lot of reductive assumptions and rhetoric about the value or function of games. i've seen it said in complete seriousness that people who enjoy hard games don't actually enjoy it and are just addicted to it like drugs. (incidentally, "games are all about challenge" is just as bad, of course.) i think people should just stop trying to put some kind of rule on top of works and instead just accept each one on its own case.

incidentally i would count "respect for the players time" as being within this category of "assumptions about value/function". i don't think works have to be subservient to their viewer; the game is allowed to be the dominant one in the relationship (this has nothing to do with difficulty btw)

[KobaBeach]

"hard games aren't fun"/"i don't think hard games are fun" on its own isn't really bad in itself but we also live in a world where there's a hell of a lot of reductive assumptions and rhetoric about the value or function of games. i've seen it said in complete seriousness that people who enjoy hard games don't actually enjoy it and are just addicted to it like drugs. (incidentally, "games are all about challenge" is just as bad, of course.) i think people should just stop trying to put some kind of rule on top of works and instead just accept each one on its own case.

incidentally i would count "respect for the players time" as being within this category of "assumptions about value/function". i don't think works have to be subservient to their viewer; the game is allowed to be the dominant one in the relationship (this has nothing to do with difficulty btw)

+1ing this post for putting some stuff i wanted to say into words because i'm autistic and i legit suck at arguments

[BobisOnlyBob]

re:"respect for the players time"; that was an example common argument, rather than a point I was trying to raise. The point was that can be a valid reason to critique a level, but we shouldn't extend that critique to the authors themselves because they don't need that, criticism of a work even with highly subjective criticisms can be valid and its intent is understandable without making it personal. That's something this community can improve upon when judging levels - judge the levels, not the author's intent. It's fine to say you think a level is too long or too hard to be reasonable without questioning the author's judgement, and that extends to collectives of authors like "JUMP Team". Every single time I heard "oh, JUMP Team thinks..." I just have to mentally blot out the following statement because it's never constructive to criticise that way.

[Skye]

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